Thread: Sub or Combat?

  1. #1

    Sub or Combat?

    Iv been hearing alot that in 4.3 sub has gotten to be a viable raiding spec, even prefered on morchok due to more uptime, so iv been considering going sub mostly because i dont like combats very boring and simple rotation, but due to sub always being the PvP spec, There isnt much feedback on it.

    So i was wondering if anyone else had any feedback on sub vs. combat on bosses other then morchok (obviously not on bosses you cant backstab, ultraxion). Is there a certain gear requirement for it to be better then combat? I was trying it out on heroics last night and it seems fine but i havnt tried it in a raid yet. My rogue is only 384 ilvl (http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...ollie/advanced) <-- my armory. I dont have any other weapons and it seems heroic FL weps are better then fear for combat. i dont care about having fun, just topping the meters the best i can.



    tl;dr: sub better then combat at 384 ilvl?

  2. #2
    There isn't much feedback? Have you seen Synexlol's Sub PvE compendium stickied at the top?
    A witty saying proves nothing.
    -Voltaire
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  3. #3
    Sub is viable. Combat is better.
    Jsz
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  4. #4
    Field Marshal Nigoki's Avatar
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    Sub is the best singletarget/withoutmoving/standingintheback fight spec, combat is the best all around spec.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Nigoki View Post
    Sub is the best singletarget/withoutmoving/standingintheback fight spec, combat is the best all around spec.
    You are correct with combat being the best overall spec, but in DS (more so heroic) sub is looking to be the more used spec. Morchok, Warlord, Haggara and spine (and loot ship on normal atleast) all seem to favor sub quite a bit. This is mostly due to good movement and good damage mitigation without sacrificing much dps. Sub is a very grueling spec with so many uptimes that need to be manage.

  6. #6
    The Patient crazymack's Avatar
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    I've been playing sub this entire patch and after a while you really can't tell that your working to maintain your rotation.
    Moving around isn't a problem if you have proper key-bindings, the biggest disadvantages sub has in DS is ultraxion and the tendons on the spin of DW.
    Yes sub does horrible aoe dps and can't preform well on the two targets listed above, but you can BS the limbs and the big adds on Maddness.
    The biggest reward of sub, in my opinion, is the challenge to maximize your dps.
    (It gives me sad face when in RF I'm top dps by a margin on Ultraxion.)

    As far you question about ilvl for combat vs sub, I think I remember somewhere saying that sub pulled better numbers when in mostly heroic FL gear (not sure the ilvl). That's from sims not real game play.

    My advice, don't listen to people when they say go this spec for rogues, they are all viable for DS. Play the spec you want to play.

    Crazymack - Antonidas
    Last edited by crazymack; 2011-12-17 at 04:15 AM. Reason: add toon's name

  7. #7
    I can't see how you would prefer Subtlety for H:Zon'ozz, H:Hagara and H:Blackhorn.

    Zon'ozz you get to cleave with an amazing damage buff which gets transfered just like it was on Halfus. The only reason I'd play Sub there was if you had serious enrage issues and you're supposed to stay on boss 100% for the single-target damage. However, this isn't usually the case I think?

    Hagara it's obviously a choice between a little more damage on her and the Ice Crystals vs. cleave on the Tombs. In my experience there never was an issue to get the Crystals down in 2 rounds. The cleave on the Tombs outbalances overall damage more than your own single target increase unless you get 100% healers in there. If you have issues getting the crystals down in 2 circles I can see choosing Sub.

    Well, Blackhorn you mainly mentioned on normal but I'll still take it. I cannot see any reason at all for Sub there? You get tons of cleave damage in P1. You get even more cleave damage in P2 (heroic only). And it's not like it's wasted damage either - the damage is rather important to not get overwhelmed/have issues with the enrage.

    I'm aware that I've ignored the damage reduced parts but we're already one of the classes (if not THE class) who take the least damage with normal Feint. If healers have issues keeping you up with Combat spec, they need to step it up. Don't get me wrong - I love avoiding as much damage as possible as anyone else but as a rogue you shouldn't have to lose damage for less damage taken unless you need it to survive (Valiona & Theralion, Morchok, etc.). People may have other opinions on this though.

    @OP:
    The 2 only heroic encounters I'd play Sub for are Morchok and Spine of Deathwing. Possibly Madness of Deathwing might get added to this list but we'll see about that. Also about ~375-378 item level is enough for Sub to overtake Combat in single target encounters so you should be fine.
    For normal modes you might want to add Zon'ozz to the list of Sub encounters.

  8. #8
    combat is much easier and forgiving and you can actually do some aoe.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashvael View Post
    I can't see how you would prefer Subtlety for H:Zon'ozz, H:Hagara and H:Blackhorn.

    Zon'ozz you get to cleave with an amazing damage buff which gets transfered just like it was on Halfus. The only reason I'd play Sub there was if you had serious enrage issues and you're supposed to stay on boss 100% for the single-target damage. However, this isn't usually the case I think?

    Hagara it's obviously a choice between a little more damage on her and the Ice Crystals vs. cleave on the Tombs. In my experience there never was an issue to get the Crystals down in 2 rounds. The cleave on the Tombs outbalances overall damage more than your own single target increase unless you get 100% healers in there. If you have issues getting the crystals down in 2 circles I can see choosing Sub.

    Well, Blackhorn you mainly mentioned on normal but I'll still take it. I cannot see any reason at all for Sub there? You get tons of cleave damage in P1. You get even more cleave damage in P2 (heroic only). And it's not like it's wasted damage either - the damage is rather important to not get overwhelmed/have issues with the enrage.

    I'm aware that I've ignored the damage reduced parts but we're already one of the classes (if not THE class) who take the least damage with normal Feint. If healers have issues keeping you up with Combat spec, they need to step it up. Don't get me wrong - I love avoiding as much damage as possible as anyone else but as a rogue you shouldn't have to lose damage for less damage taken unless you need it to survive (Valiona & Theralion, Morchok, etc.). People may have other opinions on this though.

    @OP:
    The 2 only heroic encounters I'd play Sub for are Morchok and Spine of Deathwing. Possibly Madness of Deathwing might get added to this list but we'll see about that. Also about ~375-378 item level is enough for Sub to overtake Combat in single target encounters so you should be fine.
    For normal modes you might want to add Zon'ozz to the list of Sub encounters.
    On H: Zon'zz, you can cleave the boss and 1 claw, and thats about it, atleast from my experience. By the time the boss can move, a majority of the adds are dead. I like sub cause you it helps you move between the eye stalkes etc. Also having enveloping shadows help a good bit with the mass AOE at the start of the black phase.

    Haggara I was able to do a lot more overall damage then the other 2 combat rogues in my raid, even with them cleaving. That might say more about the difference of players, but I felt being able to shadowstep to crystals and back to the boss as the start of the new phase was huge. And the quick ramp up of sub on Haggara during the extra damage part is huge too. I felt sub was hands down better.

    Blackhorn, I do have doubts about my opinion, especially on heroic mode since I have not been able to experience it yet. I felt the 2 adds moved way too much to get decent levels of BF up. My opinion atm, which could easily change, was I did better damage as sub. I did about 6k more dps then the other combat rogues who had about 7% of his damage from BF.

  10. #10
    For Zon'ozz I can see Sub being ahead if you have to kill a lot of eyes and the claw would be dead till you arrive on the boss. But usually I'd have to kill an eye or two until the boss moves to the claw position and then get back on him and cleave hard.

    Well, yes, Hagara. It's as I mentioned. You will do more personal DPS with Sub but the cleave damage on tombs should in all cases result in more raid damage on the boss. I only have a 10m parse right now (since we're rebuilding the FtH 25m raid) in which I did 1,2m damage via Blade Flurry. If I was Sub the other players would have to deal these extra 1,2m damage on the tombs resulting in longer tombs and therefore lower Boss DPS uptimes for the players outside and especially inside of the tombs.

    For Blackhorn I guess I should let you play it on heroic first then. However, the issue you mentioned with adds moving too much might be caused by your tanks. I sadly haven't seen Warmaster on your stream yet.
    Here's an example though. In the first phase I dealt about 23% with Blade Flurry which only gets better in the second phase. Sadly I can't link a full attempt as I switched onto a shadow priest for the kill but it should give you the right idea. Also, again only 10m.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by RogueDurr View Post
    You are correct with combat being the best overall spec, but in DS (more so heroic) sub is looking to be the more used spec. Morchok, Warlord, Haggara and spine (and loot ship on normal atleast) all seem to favor sub quite a bit. This is mostly due to good movement and good damage mitigation without sacrificing much dps. Sub is a very grueling spec with so many uptimes that need to be manage.
    Also, being a nelf changes up the rotation a bit/gives more room for error :]
    New and shiny compppppp!

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Ashvael View Post
    For Zon'ozz I can see Sub being ahead if you have to kill a lot of eyes and the claw would be dead till you arrive on the boss. But usually I'd have to kill an eye or two until the boss moves to the claw position and then get back on him and cleave hard.

    Well, yes, Hagara. It's as I mentioned. You will do more personal DPS with Sub but the cleave damage on tombs should in all cases result in more raid damage on the boss. I only have a 10m parse right now (since we're rebuilding the FtH 25m raid) in which I did 1,2m damage via Blade Flurry. If I was Sub the other players would have to deal these extra 1,2m damage on the tombs resulting in longer tombs and therefore lower Boss DPS uptimes for the players outside and especially inside of the tombs.

    For Blackhorn I guess I should let you play it on heroic first then. However, the issue you mentioned with adds moving too much might be caused by your tanks. I sadly haven't seen Warmaster on your stream yet.
    Here's an example though. In the first phase I dealt about 23% with Blade Flurry which only gets better in the second phase. Sadly I can't link a full attempt as I switched onto a shadow priest for the kill but it should give you the right idea. Also, again only 10m.
    I had say where you can cleave the dragon and warmaster in phase 2. And your probably right with the tanks not handling the adds well enough. Progression thru DS has been pretty disappointing on my end .

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