I think the spam of Tier drops creates problems to 10man guilds.

[NexusTN]

Unrestricted Tokens would make 25 mans a nightmare.

[Redblade]

I raid in a 10man guild and we have no problem with it, don't really see the big deal? You have to spend a bit longer to get token bonus?

I still don't have my T12 shoulders ... just because your guild didn't get shafted by RNG doesn't mean it's not an issue, the wasted loot factor in 10man is huge compared to 25.

The simplest solution within the current system would be to allow us to trade 2x token for 1x token, so if you have 2x wasted Vanq tokens you can get a Conq token for those 2, alternatively if you want to limit it to 10man, add a drop in 10 that allows you to switch Sunwell style.

[merv]

How many weeks are we into this content?

Tokens are fine. You'll have 6 months to get your tier.

Then again, I thought the system of tier dropping on the boss instead of tokens was much more fun anyway.

[Deleted]

I see two fallacies in this thread about the arguments against the OP message's suggestion.

1. That a 10man can go Raid Finder. They need 25. There is no version of LFR for 10mans. And if they start kicking they will not be able to do it with 10 (and they may be kicked by others themselves). And if they kick all to remain 10 - which might not be possible since it keeps auto-inviting people - it might not be possible to do the boss at all. I suspect it becomes heroic mode at least.

2. That some people think probability is something that does not apply to them. "It will drop". "Some people are unlucky". No, that's not how mathematics work. The chance is always the same, unless they bugged their computers at Blizzard. The chance for the average WoW player will not change. There's no "luck" into this. Luck has absolutely no effect. If there are the right classes

you will get: 10% for each class. This is the expected chance. No "luck" changes that.
If you get 5 on the 4-class token it drops to 8% each.
If you get 2 on a 3-class it raises to a huge 15%, almost double
If you get 4 on a 3-class it drops to a flimsy 7.5%, even worse.

[Deleted]

Honestly I think blizzard should stop making the set bonuses so OP, and bring back things like crafted sets. I don't remember a mad rush for tier in tbc like I see now, and I quite liked being able to use 2/3/4 pieces of non-set gear. Most of the time anything that isnt the most optimal off-piece gets d/e-ed. Which is a shame.

[PetersenIII]

Law of large numbers and all that. You and many other guilds have probably experienced crappy luck with only have 3 resets so far in this tier, but the droprates will average out to the advertised 30%/30%/40% by the time 5.0 launches (especially if it winds up being the expected 8-10 months).

32-40 is not a 'large number'.

[Redblade]

How many weeks are we into this content?

Tokens are fine. You'll have 6 months to get your tier.

Then again, I thought the system of tier dropping on the boss instead of tokens was much more fun anyway.

Over 15 kills we had 1 Conq token from major homo, in our raid team we have 5 people using Conq tokens, with the same frequency of drops we would be fully geared in little over a year, see how flawed your 6 months are now?

[Layuth]

Unrestricted Tokens would make 25 mans a nightmare.

Actually, they worked rather nice in ToC.

[PBitt]

It can be a bit annoying, I suppose, but to me the bigger issue with this is that the non-tier items that drop from those 5 bosses are going to be a pain to acquire, and it kind of makes dropping a completely useless piece even worse...the vendor stuff is mostly meh, and there are also no heroic pieces. . There are items on those loot lists that even in 20, 30, 40 kills of all bosses, that 10 man guilds are never going to see even once, as the loot tables are just as big as they are in FL yet only one of 12 pieces drops each time.

Back on topic, I think the token class restrictions needs some work, as I'm sure it is quite rare when a ten man guild has say 4 people on Vanq, 3 on Conq and 3 on Prot tokens. I like the idea as suggested above as perhaps turning in 2 useless tokens for one of your choice, I honestly think that is the best solution for this.

[Hayden272]

This is because of the locked tokens to certain classes. A 25man can get away with it since out of merely big roster numbers they usually even out relatively OK. A 10man though is easy to have 2 on a token, or 1 on a token or 5 or even 6 members on a single token (if it's the big token especially).

So, when you have valor, at least you're 'fighting' over 1 or 2 tokens max, with this, you're going to be fighting with people for at least 4 tokens.

Now, this wouldn't happen if a token could go to any class or if Blizzard became responsible and started being less random, and gave drops according to what it sees online at the time.

Or then if it's unfixable, put back some tokens on valor.

from doing like.. 20 HC 10man Shannox kills last tier i know what you mean i saw conq legs like... twice, we got some new scrub warrior tank in got 4pc 1 week before prot tokens drop off tap, but 10man this tier is /lolrudumb? its faceroll don't qq about tier esp when 25man got a nerf to tier tokens, getting 2 per boss is stupid should of made it at least chance for 3... to even it a bit, but you know who cares.

TL;DR 10man is easy don't qq about not getting enough tokens because you'll make up for it by facerollin to 6/8 hc

[Stevoman]

32-40 is not a 'large number'.

It's large enough to say with relative certainty that you'll eventually get your 4pc.

With ~10 months until MoP, the chances of never seeing your Conq/Prot mark in this tier is around the magnitude of 10^-7, or around that of winning a decent lottery.

[Deleted]

32-40

I want to point out again, that it doesn't matter if it's one kill or forty kills, the expected chance is the same. It doesn't matter that you got unlucky or that you got lucky. It evens out for the whole game. One kill.

edit: i.e. I consider malicious any attempts to say "I may be alone or with only another guy on a token but don't worry, I may not have many drops". No, you will have many drops, because that's the expected result. It doesn't matter if you got unlucky or you got lucky. Game-wide, that is the expected result.

[Redblade]

Game-wide, that is the expected result.

That is the problem with Blizzard (and others) claiming 'RNG is random' and that it will even out. Over there sample set, which is everyone raiding, I'm sure it does even out to the percent chances it should be, once you reduce that sample size it isn't as even due to the limited occurrences of the event, on a realm level it might still even out to be correct but once you get to a guild level it can be skewed by quite a bit, even more so in 10man than 25 due to an even smaller sample.

[roahn the warlock]

This is because of the locked tokens to certain classes. A 25man can get away with it since out of merely big roster numbers they usually even out relatively OK. A 10man though is easy to have 2 on a token, or 1 on a token or 5 or even 6 members on a single token (if it's the big token especially).

So, when you have valor, at least you're 'fighting' over 1 or 2 tokens max, with this, you're going to be fighting with people for at least 4 tokens.

Now, this wouldn't happen if a token could go to any class or if Blizzard became responsible and started being less random, and gave drops according to what it sees online at the time.

Or then if it's unfixable, put back some tokens on valor.

Rng is Rng. also about your sig, that whole dumbledore thing was just a publicity stunt

[zazuch]

As many others said the loot system is a pain. Ex last tier in firelands our shaman(only him and a warrior on that token) had 5 piece for all sets(enhance ele and resto) heroic resto and ele set and our warrior had full heroic while(we actually started to vendor w/h/s tokens because they had no use for them) our vanq people had maybe 1 piece of heroic each if that. Also dont even get me started on leather agil(and slightly less mail agil) gear. If that agil dagger drops one more damn time on shannox as I will go crazy(i think everyone in our guild can duel weild it heroic that is). The pure amount of w/h/s tokens and agil)shaman was ele/resto and no hunter/feral/rouge) gear was just stupid.

I wont lie we dont have a good comp but depending who gets on we may and have 7 people on the vanq token(2 druids 2 mages 2-3 dks) out of 10 people....We at least due to this put in a 1 tier per vanq rule so that we will steadily get it in but it will still take a while.

[Darkfriend]

Optionally, remove class restrictions but require more tokens/piece of tier.

[Mammoon]

The biggest problem I see with the current tier situation for 10 mans is that once everyone has their tier tokens (let's say, 10 weeks to get everyone their 4 set, not LOL 5 set, assuming some bad drops), you will still more than likely be fishing for the other drops from all 5 of the tier bosses (since they only drop 1 other item)...

If anyone raided 10 mans in Firelands, they will know exactly what this is like, clearing the same raid for 3-4 months and never seeing an item drop. Now imagine the same scenario, but with 5 bosses only dropping 1 item, instead of 2.

[Gamez]

RNG.

What blizz should do is make only people who looted from the bosses gets loot locked, if other people are unlucky and lose rolls dont get locked to the boss.

Currently i have absolutely no desire to go LFR again since im locked, although i would farm it if it doesnt lock me if i lose on all of the rolls.

[Deleted]

That is the problem with Blizzard (and others) claiming 'RNG is random' and that it will even out. Over there sample set, which is everyone raiding, I'm sure it does even out

The problem is that this is the expected result. i.e. if someone is on a token alone it may be malicious to claim "it doesn't matter, it may not drop at all". Yes, it does matter, because this is the expected result, to get more items just because you are alone.

Lack of understanding of that is the main reason some people waste their life on gambling.

[Redblade]

The problem is that this is the expected result. i.e. if someone is on a token alone it may be malicious to claim "it doesn't matter, it may not drop at all". Yes, it does matter, because this is the expected result, to get more items just because you are alone.

Lack of understanding of that is the main reason some people waste their life on gambling.

You lost me, what does that have to do with how skewed the drop rates of tier tokens can be.