We need a game where every level matters.

[Seegtease]

I don't know what happened, or why everybody at some point became obsessed with getting to max level in games, but it happened. Why does it have to be that way? Why do games even have a leveling process if the only thing that matters is max level? It seems that if all the energy is poured solely into max level that the game should just... not have levels.

Heresy? Not really. If that's all that is valued, then the journey is irrelevant other than to teach you how to use your abilities as you go. But tutorials and training missions can do that.

But personally, I'm sick of it. Yes, I know I can play a game like WoW at my own pace, and enjoy each level, but there's just... not a lot to enjoy. Some mediocre dungeons to run, some zones to quest in, but it still feels like those are just ways to get you to max level.

Vanilla wasn't quite as bad since the leveling process was so slow... they actually had EPICS that weren't max level. Remember those? And people would use them!

FFXI wasn't bad in this regard, either. I remember hitting 30 on my ranger and just feeling like I want to stay that level forever! It was great. But there was no content.

We need an MMO where every level matters. Where when you get to level 20, or 30, you feel like you want to do some things before continuing on. We need a game with patches saying things like "We added a new level 30 raid" that either required you to be level 25-30, or you got bonuses for being that level. I mean, you could go back and do it at max, but that wouldn't be very fulfilling. We need an MMO where we have such epic quest lines available at early level ranges that we just feel like we don't need to level right away. We need new things to do to unlock at every level, and when you reach max?

Why does there have to be a max? Or at least, a max that's obtainable. Sure, it could be level 100, but it's not feasible for anyone to get to it. Leveling could be slow, and I know a lot of people hate the idea of slow leveling, but if the goal WASN'T to get to max, then slow leveling wouldn't be a curse - it would be a good thing. If the content was developed equally at all levels, then we could progress through the levels like we're progressing through content. I don't want gear getting replaced quickly as I level. I want to take some runs to earn the gear, or get some expensive materials to craft it, and enjoy it for some time, since I wouldn't outgrow it right away.

To me, it seems when all that matters is max level, then why does leveling even need to exist? There are two solutions that make sense: make leveling itself part of the content, or get rid of leveling. There's no point in keeping something that doesn't matter. So it needs to matter or be gone, the way I see it.

Of course, this idea is way too revolutionary and will never happen, but I wish it would.

And if it has, can someone please direct me to the game so I may play it?

[Fencers]

Nah. Leveling is tedious. Hopefully, it will be phased out entirely in future games. Already the act of leveling is merely an extended tutorial with some game's levels going by quicker than others.

[Puzzlebox]

I could not disagree more with this.

[Caiada]

I'd rather levels in MMORPGs die and character progression be less artificial.

I'm pretty sure I know exactly how this came about though. MMORPGs focus on having as many people together at once, and characters at different levels traditionally can't do much of anything together. A quickly attainable goal gets everyone to relatively equal footing to play together.

Alternate solutions:

1: Have everyone start out on equal footing and stay on equal footing throughout the levels. Have levels just give more ways to do things. All content is applicable to everyone. The FPS-progression approach.

2: What you posted.

3: As stated above, remove levels. Make progression through gear, or make it cosmetic, or other, wackier solutions.

4: The JRPG way. Give the game an attainable end, strong story, and all the traditional RPG features, but multiplayer. Basically, DQ9.

5: Others?

[damntree]

Good post; you have valid points but then again what to do about it?

[Hakto]

The game already exists where there is no set in stone max level.

Every level matters because your journey to that level defines the future for you.

It takes exactly 365 days to reach the next level, there are no cheat codes, no short cuts.

In fact a lot of effort is spent by people trying to trick people they are a different level than they actually are.

Prior to being level 18 or 21, dependent on what zone you play in, people spend a lot of time and effort to appear a higher level so they can access new perks.

However, there also comes a point where many players (especially female ones) spend a tremendous amount of time and effort to trick people into thinking they are actually lower levels than what they are.

There is no save game either, if your character runs out of hit points it is game over, no restart.

Maybe you could go play that more?

[Tragedia]

I believe The Secret World won't have any levels.

http://www.thesecretworld.com/

Experience a game that has no classes or levels. Truly freeform character customization allows you to create the alter-ego that you want to play. Choose from hundreds of different powers for your character without ever having to re-roll, completely eliminating the need to follow a set path of progression throughout the game. Choose the powers, the weapons and the clothing that you want to use.

Maybe instead of using zones for leveling and such they could try something different. Maybe the zones could just have a unique storyline where you go there and do quests and missions for Character Progression, exploration, cool items/gear/costumes. Instead of just going into a zone to get some levels and skip to the next one you can do these other things. Giving no zone restrictions or anything.

Other info from The Secret World on Character Progression

The Secret World does not force you down a set path of progression. You are free to do anything you want at any time. If you ever get tired of doing missions or slaughtering demons, why not return to your secret society and perform tasks for them so you can rise up in their order? Do so, and you will unlock even more powers, weapons, and even unique uniforms. And, of course, untold secrets!

[Repefe]

Nah. Leveling is tedious. Hopefully, it will be phased out entirely in future games. Already the act of leveling is merely an extended tutorial with some game's levels going by quicker than others.

Leveling up when done poorly is what you said.

[Deleted]

No, absolutely no.
( eg: I'm no Swtor fanboi or anything but man that mmo made me love questing again. )
It's not about levels, it's about being refreshing, how in depth the story is etc etc..
You'd have to explain me how you'd implement a story ( in any mmo ) of your character getting more powerfull without it gaining levels or needing requirements to wear special items etc..
This is nonsense to me.

[Skelington]

The game already exists where there is no set in stone max level.

Every level matters because your journey to that level defines the future for you.

It takes exactly 365 days to reach the next level, there are no cheat codes, no short cuts.

In fact a lot of effort is spent by people trying to trick people they are a different level than they actually are.

Prior to being level 18 or 21, dependent on what zone you play in, people spend a lot of time and effort to appear a higher level so they can access new perks.

However, there also comes a point where many players (especially female ones) spend a tremendous amount of time and effort to trick people into thinking they are actually lower levels than what they are.

There is no save game either, if your character runs out of hit points it is game over, no restart.

Maybe you could go play that more?

Life sucks.

Leveling isn't that bad when done right. The problem with things nowadays is that leveling feels like a grind to max. If more content is added to fill the levels so you don't think about the grind, then that would be fine. Or if leveling is more or less "dropped" and you progress your character and storylines, then that would also be fine.
It's not the leveling itself, it's just the way games have you do it.

[insmek]

Phantasy Star Online was a bit like that. I never made it to the level 200 cap, but every single level I did earn felt significant. In WoW, going from 30-31 might genuinely not mean anything, but in PSO I felt like I had accomplished something, and usually the game was good about rewarding every level--new weapons or MAG upgrades, for instance. At the same time, I could group with someone 8 or 9 levels ahead of me and we didn't feel like we were too far apart.

[Rocketsurgeon]

Levels are unnecessary, archaic, and inherently counter-intuitive. We put up with them because of our conditioning, not because they make our games great.

I say we get rid of it.

[Fencers]

Leveling up when done poorly is what you said.

Nah. The experience (pun intended!) of "leveling up" has never truly been enjoyable. Only the promise of leveling is enjoyable. But is mostly artificial in nearly every game I have ever played.

There is no example of "well done" leveling in gaming I have experienced (zing again!).

[Seegtease]

Nah. Leveling is tedious. Hopefully, it will be phased out entirely in future games. Already the act of leveling is merely an extended tutorial with some game's levels going by quicker than others.

That's my point. It IS tedious. But it doesn't HAVE to be.

Some of you are missing my point. When I say leveling, you are conditioned to think "bah boring passage to cap" but I say it doesn't have to be that way. That's what I'm saying. I'd like to see a game where a level isn't just an end to a means, it's an actual destination that you might just want to stay at for awhile.

Imagine yourself on a world tour, but your end goal is... Paris or something. But every stop you make on the way there isn't just a place your passing through, you enjoy all of the sights, sometimes even staying at other places for extra time because you enjoy them that much.

I say leveling can be a similar experience, but it would involve turning everything most of us know completely upside down.

I'd rather levels in MMORPGs die and character progression be less artificial.

I'm pretty sure I know exactly how this came about though. MMORPGs focus on having as many people together at once, and characters at different levels traditionally can't do much of anything together. A quickly attainable goal gets everyone to relatively equal footing to play together.

Alternate solutions:

1: Have everyone start out on equal footing and stay on equal footing throughout the levels. Have levels just give more ways to do things. All content is applicable to everyone. The FPS-progression approach.

2: What you posted.

3: As stated above, remove levels. Make progression through gear, or make it cosmetic, or other, wackier solutions.

4: The JRPG way. Give the game an attainable end, strong story, and all the traditional RPG features, but multiplayer. Basically, DQ9.

5: Others?

You forgot one of my favorite additions to FFXI: Level Sync. It synchronizes your level to another person in your party, and your gear is "lowered" to be appropriate for that level. It's the perfect way to implement it, but I didn't want to rip off the idea, which is why I proposed something else. But the purpose behind it is that at higher levels, sure, you have access to higher things, but you can ALWAYS play with your lower friends.

No, absolutely no.
( eg: I'm no Swtor fanboi or anything but man that mmo made me love questing again. )
It's not about levels, it's about being refreshing, how in depth the story is etc etc..
You'd have to explain me how you'd implement a story ( in any mmo ) of your character getting more powerfull without it gaining levels or needing requirements to wear special items etc..
This is nonsense to me.

That's because it's all you know - leveling has been in almost every RPG these days, so a game without it doesn't register for a lot of people. It's not even that levels shouldn't exist, but you shouldn't just rock through them. You should get to a level (like 20) and find yourself engaging in epic storylines and raids. Then again at 30, all the way to cap. No level should feel worse, there should be many level appropriate things to do at all levels, meaning you might actually have a reason for wanting to stay at a certain level.

[Wreckeded]

The game already exists where there is no set in stone max level.

Every level matters because your journey to that level defines the future for you.

It takes exactly 365 days to reach the next level, there are no cheat codes, no short cuts.

In fact a lot of effort is spent by people trying to trick people they are a different level than they actually are.

Prior to being level 18 or 21, dependent on what zone you play in, people spend a lot of time and effort to appear a higher level so they can access new perks.

However, there also comes a point where many players (especially female ones) spend a tremendous amount of time and effort to trick people into thinking they are actually lower levels than what they are.

There is no save game either, if your character runs out of hit points it is game over, no restart.

Maybe you could go play that more?

Was waitting for the title of this game......

[Deleted]

I too used to wonder about this sometimes. What would the game be like if low level content existed and would be alive. If it wasn't all about rushing to max level, gearing and then gearing some more while killing few dragons.

[endersblade]

We have a LOT of ADHD people in this thread, good lord.

If you don't like leveling, stop playing RPGs. Levels are actually secondary to the main point of the game: THE STORY. You progress through the story because, gods forbid, you actually enjoy it, and the levels come along with it. This slowly makes you more and more powerful as you go.

MMOs have completely bastardized this concept, and it's really depressing. Thankfully TOR has gone back to those roots. Leveling in MMOs, like WoW for example, really only serve one purpose: to make you continue paying your subscription fee. If they started everyone at max level, or completely removed leveling, everyone would get bored because the carrot was gone.

All you have to do is look at WoW. At cap level, many people only log in every couple of days to do their raids, and then log out. There is a plethora of things to do in WoW, but a large chunk of the community is either bored of them, or has no desire to do them. They just raid. Gaining that next tier of gear, trying to better their character...OMG would you look at that, they're LEVELING! Wow, didn't see that coming, did you?

Gear progression and leveling are the same thing. Better stats from better gear, better stats from leveling. Can't get away from it. It's really sad that you people 'hate' the leveling experience, because that's where the meat of the game is. All of you end-game-centric people are the reason MMOs get ruined, because you race to cap level, disregard all the stuff in between that the developers spent so much time creating, and then bitch and complain that "ZOMG there's no end-game!" or that it's boring and lackluster. That's what you get? I mean, what were you expecting? You skip 99% of the game and complain about the 1% at the end. Grats.

[Chrno]

leveling was great in vanilla becasue i didn't know what end game was ...
now i hate leveling MORE then anything on this earth.

but when done correctly i believe leveling can indeed be very fun. allot of people dissagree with me but i actually preferred leveling in vanilla to now. Nowadays there are NO .. < ZERO > goals to go after while leveling. your overpowered at everything you do and your always fully blue geared.

ah well i don't play alts anyway

[ComputerNerd]

Removing the levelling component removes a huge part of character advancement both from a roleplaying portion and from an experience view.
Starting with the full toolset is all well and good for an experienced player, but would overwhelm anyone new to the game.
You learn more as you earn it, as you gain experience with what you had previously.

Death Knights were an utter farce, and still are with the huge amount of content they can skip.
Something blizzard admitted was a mistake.

[Loaf]

Do it like Terraria. You start with basic gear and no armor and have to work your way to the best gear and items. Maybe having certain items will give you certain powers or skills. Armor would progressively get better(which would suck for a newbie, but then again, what would be different about ganking a newbie with no armor than ganking one at level 15 while you're 85?). You can still work in a story and such and quests as well(like say completing a quest gives you an upgrade to your weapon or armor directly, not a new piece).

In Terraria, you start out with a copper sword, pickaxe and axe and your goal is to get better gear by gathering better materials. You can also get weapons that have various different playstyles(like magic tomes, bows, boomerangs, swords, lances/spears, etc.). Maybe make a class system where you're limited to what types of gear you can equip but I think it could work out if done properly.