No'Kaled, the Elements of Death and Vengenace vs Fear and Vengeance

[nextormento]

While event based simulations are another approach, I don't see any of the two being better: I could pose a very strong case favoring ShadowCraft and could point several issues with SimulationCraft, then again I might be biased. In any case, your handful of pulls pales in comparison to any of the two tools; furthermore, any implementation of real proc synergies in ShadowCraft would only push proc weapons ahead. As for energy management, well yes, ShadowCraft doesn't have a model for it as of now, but SimulationCraft is certainly erring on this very same issue being way too optimistic compared to what I've been seeing in-game. For some real numbers, ShadowCraft is modeling the lfr nokaled proc as up to ~2.18% of the total dps which is arguably lower than what we're getting from real parses.

Edit: note that the damage% of the proc is a extremely flawed image of what the proc is valued as: its damage is static and the % will only be lower with every upgrade you get. My testing is based around several thresholds of loot (from average lfg 378 gear to fully heroic t13) and I find Nokaled to sistematicaly come ahead.

[Teknicon]

I ran this resets Dragon Soul clear with LFR No'Kaled + Vengeance. I'll be running next week with Fear + Vengeance, and then compare the logs. My first impression with the LFR axe was that I was consistently pulling ahead of the T1 daggers with it, but that is of course purely a subjective observation. Hopefully we can get an absolute definite answer on this matter in not too long. ^^

I wonder how good the 416 No'Kaled will be.

[RogueDurr]

While event based simulations are another approach, I don't see any of the two being better: I could pose a very strong case favoring ShadowCraft and could point several issues with SimulationCraft, then again I might be biased. In any case, your handful of pulls pales in comparison to any of the two tools; furthermore, any implementation of real proc synergies in ShadowCraft would only push proc weapons ahead. As for energy management, well yes, ShadowCraft doesn't have a model for it as of now, but SimulationCraft is certainly erring on this very same issue being way too optimistic compared to what I've been seeing in-game. For some real numbers, ShadowCraft is modeling the lfr nokaled proc as up to ~2.18% of the total dps which is arguably lower than what we're getting from real parses.

Edit: note that the damage% of the proc is a extremely flawed image of what the proc is valued as: its damage is static and the % will only be lower with every upgrade you get. My testing is based around several thresholds of loot (from average lfg 378 gear to fully heroic t13) and I find Nokaled to sistematicaly come ahead.

In terms of the damage, with the LFR it does apply when you have other options such as another 397 weapon that has higher weapon damage. If you are good and are capable of squeezing out say a few more SS during a course of an encounter, that weapon damage will have more value. If you bad, and get less SS, the procs will help make up for some that damage. This would also apply to say heroic morning star and the normal mode axe.

[nextormento]

I'm not following your train of thought, Durr. More specifically: I don't see how is that related to what you are quoting, or even if any follow-up to it is needed. As an aside, I find it particularly asinine to come up with an analysis of the effectiveness of a weapon based in player performance, moreso when SS procs nokaled too.

[RogueDurr]

Your not gonna be able to get enough extra SS to warrant another weapon proc. If the weapon is gonna proc, its gonna be more likely it comes from your melee swing, not getting it from a SS. I am only getting about 23 weapon proc is 6min ultrax fight or close to 4 per min. If you have a weapon that has higher weapon damage more secondary stats will result in better SS damage, RS damage, melee damage etc. While your the amount of melee swings you get in will be pretty static and player skill will have little to no effect on this, a player can effect their GCD usage or the amount of specials they get in during the course of encounter. If you are better at this, you can get some extra specials out boasting the realized value of the extra weapon damage.

Say if at 200 SS during an encounter with a 397 compared to the 390, the extra damage output of the 397 may not out-weight the proc from the axe. But at say if someone can squeeze an extra 10 SS out, making the total of 210 SS, the weapon damage will then out-weigh it.

I have found that I normally do about 42k on Ultrax with No'Kald and about 43k with thousand cuts. The difference is, if I am "lazy" or not pushing as hard, the damage with the thousand cuts drops quite a bit where with No'Kald, not as much. But also on the flip side with No'Kald, if I get good RNG and get better proc or more crit procs and get say around 2.4% damage from it when pushing hard, I get can into the 44k barrier. I would load all the logs of these attempts to demo onto WOL, but I currently having a issues with the upload getting stuck.

[nextormento]

I would be very interested in seeing an optimal gear setup for those days in which you feel licke slacking; maybe we should stablish a percentage of slackiness so we can swap pieces around. No'kaled would be high on the list, indeed. I don't feel like I could contribute much to it, as something in my brain hurts badly when doing such comparisons, though.

Jokes aside, I omitted the part where you were only referring to the sword and mace. Well yes, they can be stronger than No'kaled. The thing is, No'kaled is in a weird spot: it is competitive with weapons in its ilvl range only if you also sport all the gear of the same caliber; its value is lower as you gear up (the proc doesn't scale that is). That's why I'm so reluctant to plot a ranking: there isn't any; your current gear has way too much impact on the performance of this weapon. A case can be done with the dagger set, as Nokaled seems to be blowing the set regardless of gear, but that's not always true (in fact the 391 can come ahead if fully heroic geared). Now, if you are raiding heroic content, chances are you have access to a normal nokaled and it will very possibly be better than normal mace/sword (it may not be your case, and it is not mine either for we haven't seen it ever drop in any of the lockouts we run -same goes for vial and compass-, but we are simply the statistical outliers here); if your gear is a mix of FL gear with lfr stuff, then the lfr axe will probably beat every other posibility. So, in average, the axe is a very strong contender but there are cases in which it will fall behind.

A final note: since I am the SC guy here, the best thing I can do is to give basic ideas about these issues until we get the app patched. All the feedback I'm currently giving is based on my research with this tool. I can run particular gearsets; I have done it in the past and still do if a reasonable case is posed that could help unwind this matter.

Edit: I forgot to reiterate one thing, Durr. I do enjoy studying parses, but as you are aware raid compo, strat and fight length have a very nasty impact in the outcome; this is the usual stuff I would spew when faced with random parses, but in this case parses are a worse comparison than usual since Nokaled has a massive output variance. The assessments we're doing here are a lot wider than whatever amount of parses you or me could ever produce and I think we (or I, at least) need to give a general idea of where these weapons stand, and so far ShadowCraft still does a good job for most of it except for Nokaled which is the focus of my reserach as of late and I still think it is a *very* strong weapon and certainly the best one to take if in doubt or if you lack the ability to run SimulationCraft or our ShadowCraft engine.

[RogueDurr]

[QUOTE=nextormento;14823223]I would be very interested in seeing an optimal gear setup for those days in which you feel licke slacking; maybe we should stablish a percentage of slackiness so we can swap pieces around. No'kaled would be high on the list, indeed. I don't feel like I could contribute much to it, as something in my brain hurts badly when doing such comparisons, though.
[QUOTE]

What I meant in terms of slacking would be APM. You could do something similiar to SimC with APM and levels of APM or reaction time. Say you have a reaction time of 1.001. Essential ever 100 sec you are late on a GCD. Its a splitting hairs kind of thing and in 99.99% of application it doesnt do much.

I agree with pretty much everything in your last post. It just bothers me and does not make logical sense to me that No'Kal LFR is ranked in the SC web has the 4th best weapon, only around 200 dps behind morningstar heroic in my gear set.

[The Ogdru Jahad]

Not sure if this was answered but is raid finder nokaled better than stage 1 MH for a combat rogue?

[Alterror]

I've searched everywhere and haven't really found an answer for this question: 410 mace or 403 axe?
At the moment the proc is about 3% of my damage output, would the added MH damage/stats make up for such a strong proc?

[theblkbltmstr]

Can somebody please give us an answer to the above question, about if the LFR axe is better than stage 1 for a combat rogue?

Thanks!

[fallschick]

I'm talkin stage 2 daggers, not stage 1. Also, the 403 normal mode axe, not LFR. The proc does seem to do around 4% of my dps on average.. and the stage 2 daggers only add an extra 150 agi on top of the 100 from stage 1.

im sure most ppl got their stage 2 dagger this last week and havent gotten time to research yet.
I just got mines last week and im wondering if the axe is better or not havent raided since. =/

---------- Post added 2012-01-02 at 02:04 PM ----------

Can somebody please give us an answer to the above question, about if the LFR axe is better than stage 1 for a combat rogue?

Thanks!

Yes its better
stage 1 daggers proc is very lackluster for combat

[Lachtobi]

I'm talkin stage 2 daggers, not stage 1. Also, the 403 normal mode axe, not LFR. The proc does seem to do around 4% of my dps on average.. and the stage 2 daggers only add an extra 150 agi on top of the 100 from stage 1.

That's odd, my 403 axe is consistently doing 2,7%.

[theblkbltmstr]

I just read on a couple threads from the WoW official forums that LFR axe is NOT better, but, the normal mode is indeed better. Axe/OH-Dagger

[Tekloth]

That's odd, my 403 axe is consistently doing 2,7%.

You can't compare percentual damage on that axe, since it's affected by your current gear. The better your gear gets, the smaller percentage of your damage the axe will be. For real comparisons you'd have to use the numerical figures of the damage dealt instead of percentages.

[mongoose6]

Commenting on the axe vs dagger

I think many people are forgetting that haste (as it applies to weapon speed) provides more gains for a slower weapon as opposed to a fast weapon. 10% of 2.6 is a bigger increase than 10% of 1.4. Therefore, you need to factor in the higher white damage that you will get from the axe as well as the damage procs. I have fear and vengeance, but I use (normal) Spine/Electrowing. This not only sims out higher, but I personally see a gain over the phase 1 daggers.

[Maelstrom51]

Commenting on the axe vs dagger

I think many people are forgetting that haste (as it applies to weapon speed) provides more gains for a slower weapon as opposed to a fast weapon. 10% of 2.6 is a bigger increase than 10% of 1.4. Therefore, you need to factor in the higher white damage that you will get from the axe as well as the damage procs. I have fear and vengeance, but I use (normal) Spine/Electrowing. This not only sims out higher, but I personally see a gain over the phase 1 daggers.

Lol. Lololololol. Haste does not increase the white damage of slow weapons more than fast weapons at all. I don't know where you came to this conclusion.

[mongoose6]

10% of 2.6 is .26, an increase of weapon swings by .26. 10% of 1.4 is .14 so an increase of .14. Applying haste to a slower weapon gives you more of a damage increase than applying haste to a fast weapon.

[Apathy -]

I am quite annoyed, It even beats the P2 daggers normal axe wise even. The proc outweighs 500 agility even jeez however. The MG procs yields obviously higher damage upon a higher max weapon that isn't a dagger to contribute to it.

[ymirsson]

10% of 2.6 is .26, an increase of weapon swings by .26. 10% of 1.4 is .14 so an increase of .14. Applying haste to a slower weapon gives you more of a damage increase than applying haste to a fast weapon.

No, it gives just more of actual reduced swing time, but still, 30% haste is the same dps increase for a 1.4 speed weapon as for a 3.8.

[mongoose6]

but wouldn't more actual reduced swing time give you more hits as a percentage?

I'm sorry, it does seem that I am in the wrong on this, but I don't understand why.