HASTE Values, why do you confuse me so???

[Asrialol]

Wheeee!

DPS with Haste and 2/2 WH: 37692.76
DPS with Mastery and 1/2 WH: 37485.01

207 DPS difference.

Do whatever you feels is best. The Mastery build might pull slightly ahead if there is AoE, but that really depends your focus, since the faster Cobra Shots with the Haste build could be better if the situation is right.

Had around 2050 haste in the haste build, and 1600 mastery in the mastery build.

By the way, 200 DPS can be a huge difference.

So how exactly haste affects my entire dps?

Quite a lot, actually. First of all, having more haste allows for more auto shots - obviously. It also allows for more Cobra Shots, which allows for more Arcane Shots, as well as increasing your pets dps. It also means you can do more damage between each Explosive Shot, since you wont (usually) delay the ES cooldown. Perhaps you can do this with low haste as well - sure. But you cant do the same amount of shots inbetween. The only way it could possibly affect SrS would be if it was about to fall off for whatever reason (target switching, downtime, whatever), and the faster cast means you managed to barely fresh it. But, this happens what, never?

As for Black Arrow, sometimes BA and ES comes off CD at the exact same time. Perhaps with low haste, you wouldn't have had enough focus for this. There are several factors where haste could have a big impact on your abilities, but I'm sure you understand that Dexiefy, and I'm sure you also know how haste affects your rotation / abilities. Right? If not, "okey".

Also, you're telling Illana he's making claims without numbers to back them up. Well, so are you :P

Here's the number of melee damage the pet did for each build, to see the difference.
Melee - Damage - Difference - Difference %
Haste - - - -325 - - 916825 - - 253599 - - - - - 6.2
Mastery - - -306 - - 863226

Mastery pet dps: 4282.60
haste pet dps: 4668.64
difference: 386.04
difference %: 9.01

Just to point something obvious out here. Haste has absolutely no effect on Claw, since it has a 3 second cooldown, and since WH has a 100% uptime, focus for your pet? No issue. Also, you might notice that there is a 386 DPS difference on the Pet, but on the Hunter itself it was only 207? That's because as Mastery, your pet did 4328.25 DPS and the Hunter did 33435.95 DPS. In the haste build, the pet did 4707.38 DPS, the Hunter did 33208.02 DPS. (Note: The DPS numbers here aren't from the exact same sim results as the ones above. I believe I had a low Kill Shot range % in the first results at the start of my post.)

As you can see, the hunter itself has a 200~ DPS decrease by going to the haste buid, while his pet has a 400~ DPS increase.

My conclusion: Remember that this is with max pet uptime. This can be unreliable (Hagara, Spine, Madness), so I wouldn't count on your pets DPS to give you an overall increase. Also, with AoE in the picture, I think it's safe to say that Mastery will usually pull ahead due to higher (s)Explosive Trap damage, as well as higher (imp)SrS damage. Personally, I would say that with the info above in mind, Mastery is the way to go for most of the current content.

Do note though, that this is without 4cp, it's for my Hunter, and the result can be different on your Hunter. Also, both ways are perfectly viable. 200DPS will hardly matter.

[Blackmist]

Some cycles will be 3 CoS. Some will be 2 CoS and 2 instants. So you want your CoS cast time somewhere between 1.5 and 1.67. And because you've got a LOT of focus with T13 2P, there will be more instances of 2 CoS + 2 AS. So go for a fair bit of haste.

It's easy to think that 1% mastery gives more DPS than 1% haste, and it probably does, but haste is also ~128 Rating per %, while mastery is ~179.

[Dexiefy]

As for Black Arrow, sometimes BA and ES comes off CD at the exact same time. Perhaps with low haste, you wouldn't have had enough focus for this. There are several factors where haste could have a big impact on your abilities, but I'm sure you understand that Dexiefy, and I'm sure you also know how haste affects your rotation / abilities. Right? If not, "okey".

Right, but having enough focus for both ES and BA is just proper planning and nothing else. If you find yourself with not enough focus for them it only means you made a mistake :P And yes i know the said value of haste, im not dismissing it in any way as a good stat but i disagree for it to be bread and butter as illana claims.
Also while haste allows you to do more (mostly arcane shots), mastery makes everything but physical damage stronger.
As i said before, Explosive shot gets no benefit whatsoever from haste and explosive shot alone is anything up to 35% of our overall dps. Thats 35% of dps that haste doesnt affect in any way and it roughly equals to the percentage of dps that mastery doesnt affect, like autoshot, pet or kill shot (note that haste doesnt affect kill shot either)

Also, you're telling Illana he's making claims without numbers to back them up. Well, so are you :P

Cause i don't need any. I can link world of logs and it will only support my claim of both stats being roughly equal and negate any claims of supposed haste superiority.
Theorycrafting takes you only this far, there are also encounter numbers which are more important than what theory says.

Here's the number of melee damage the pet did for each build, to see the difference.
Melee - Damage - Difference - Difference %
Haste - - - -325 - - 916825 - - 253599 - - - - - 6.2
Mastery - - -306 - - 863226

Mastery pet dps: 4282.60
haste pet dps: 4668.64
difference: 386.04
difference %: 9.01

Just to point something obvious out here. Haste has absolutely no effect on Claw, since it has a 3 second cooldown, and since WH has a 100% uptime, focus for your pet? No issue. Also, you might notice that there is a 386 DPS difference on the Pet, but on the Hunter itself it was only 207? That's because as Mastery, your pet did 4328.25 DPS and the Hunter did 33435.95 DPS. In the haste build, the pet did 4707.38 DPS, the Hunter did 33208.02 DPS. (Note: The DPS numbers here aren't from the exact same sim results as the ones above. I believe I had a low Kill Shot range % in the first results at the start of my post.)

As you can see, the hunter itself has a 200~ DPS decrease by going to the haste buid, while his pet has a 400~ DPS increase.

My conclusion: Remember that this is with max pet uptime. This can be unreliable (Hagara, Spine, Madness), so I wouldn't count on your pets DPS to give you an overall increase. Also, with AoE in the picture, I think it's safe to say that Mastery will usually pull ahead due to higher (s)Explosive Trap damage, as well as higher (imp)SrS damage. Personally, I would say that with the info above in mind, Mastery is the way to go for most of the current content.

Do note though, that this is without 4cp, it's for my Hunter, and the result can be different on your Hunter. Also, both ways are perfectly viable. 200DPS will hardly matter.

So you basically say the same thing i do That both stats are roughly equal with mastery pulling slightly ahead but still being in range of fairly neglectable difference for VAST majority of players ;]
Which means that my initial statement of Illana confusing people saying that they should always go for haste, is right ;]

It's easy to think that 1% mastery gives more DPS than 1% haste, and it probably does, but haste is also ~128 Rating per %, while mastery is ~179

Thats actually only thing that saves haste in comparission to mastery for survival hunter

[Asrialol]

So you basically say the same thing i do That both stats are roughly equal with mastery pulling slightly ahead but still being in range of fairly neglectable difference for VAST majority of players ;]
Which means that my initial statement of Illana confusing people saying that they should always go for haste, is right ;]

Aye. But now we had some easy numbers to back that statement up :P Also, the difference is really negligible.

There arent really Hunters in SWTOR though. So what am I doing!

[apojaja]

Illana seems unable to take any form of criticism or differing opinions. He goes everywhere in Bm or Surv threads telling everyone haste is better and bash anyone who disagree. Read a few threads on this forum you can easily find him arguing with alot of different ppl. Mostly his tactic is to ignore all valid arguments or opinions and goes on a rant about his own reasoning. Its like arguing with a religious fnatic who refuse to see reason. The best part is he don't even play BM yet he seems well versed in every spec and have an opinion about it. Wish he even had a few top 20 WOL logs even from LFR to back up his shit.

Anyway on topic, I agree that difference between haste and mastery is not highly significant. Throw in haste trinket procs, t13 4p and other dynamic haste effects, haste plateaus have very little relevance in today's raiding scene. Just get the best gear you can (the highest ilevel ones and thus most agi and stats), reforge for hit cap and crit where possible. Whether to go haste or mastery, determine via FD or simcraft if you are determined to squeeze out the very last bit of dps your gear can theortically achieve. You can never reliably determine whether any dps gain/loss is down to the fact that you reforged 500 haste to mastery or vice versa because execution errors and RNG can easily skew the number.

[Illana]

Illana seems unable to take any form of criticism or differing opinions. He goes everywhere in Bm or Surv threads telling everyone haste is better and bash anyone who disagree. Read a few threads on this forum you can easily find him arguing with alot of different ppl. Mostly his tactic is to ignore all valid arguments or opinions and goes on a rant about his own reasoning. Its like arguing with a religious fnatic who refuse to see reason. The best part is he don't even play BM yet he seems well versed in every spec and have an opinion about it. Wish he even had a few top 20 WOL logs even from LFR to back up his shit.

Anyway on topic, I agree that difference between haste and mastery is not highly significant. Throw in haste trinket procs, t13 4p and other dynamic haste effects, haste plateaus have very little relevance in today's raiding scene. Just get the best gear you can (the highest ilevel ones and thus most agi and stats), reforge for hit cap and crit where possible. Whether to go haste or mastery, determine via FD or simcraft if you are determined to squeeze out the very last bit of dps your gear can theortically achieve. You can never reliably determine whether any dps gain/loss is down to the fact that you reforged 500 haste to mastery or vice versa because execution errors and RNG can easily skew the number.

the point of this post was?

Oh right there was none, except to bash me. If you have a problem then take it up via PM, instead of publicising it in a vain hope of getting gratification from anonymous forum users agreeing with you.

It's pathetic and it happens far too often.

You added nothing new, nothing interesting and just like you are condemning: pulling statements out of thin air.

Please never post again.

[apojaja]

the point of this post was?

Oh right there was none, except to bash me. If you have a problem then take it up via PM, instead of publicising it in a vain hope of getting gratification from anonymous forum users agreeing with you.

It's pathetic and it happens far too often.

You added nothing new, nothing interesting and just like you are condemning: pulling statements out of thin air.

Please never post again.

You actually did catch the pt of the post. Yup, i tried to put you down because all too often i see you speak down to ppl as if you are the best hunter around, as if you are always right. I always disliked arrogant conceited jerks like you. Glad you get the pt

I agreed with Asrialol and Dexiefy, offered my opinion to the OP. My post was actually much more relevant then yours seeing that im on topic while you are once again displaying the doucheness that i found highly dislikable and thus found the need to put you down when i had perfectly no problems with any other frequent posters of this hunter forum.

Anyway on topic, I agree that difference between haste and mastery is not highly significant. Throw in haste trinket procs, t13 4p and other dynamic haste effects, haste plateaus have very little relevance in today's raiding scene. Just get the best gear you can (the highest ilevel ones and thus most agi and stats), reforge for hit cap and crit where possible. Whether to go haste or mastery, determine via FD or simcraft if you are determined to squeeze out the very last bit of dps your gear can theortically achieve. You can never reliably determine whether any dps gain/loss is down to the fact that you reforged 500 haste to mastery or vice versa because execution errors and RNG can easily skew the number.

[Illana]

You actually did catch the pt of the post. Yup, i tried to put you down because all too often i see you speak down to ppl as if you are the best hunter around, as if you are always right. I always disliked arrogant conceited jerks like you. Glad you get the pt

I agreed with Asrialol and Dexiefy, offered my opinion to the OP. My post was actually much more relevant then yours seeing that im on topic while you are once again displaying the doucheness that i found highly dislikable and thus found the need to put you down when i had perfectly no problems with any other frequent posters of this hunter forum.

again: necessary?

You're just bored or unhappy and need to take it out on someone and you don't have to take any consequences for it.

sad, sad little troll..

[UR1L]

again: necessary?

You're just bored or unhappy and need to take it out on someone and you don't have to take any consequences for it.

sad, sad little troll..

Equally sad to keep arguing with him.

Thanks to Asrialol for a good post though. Wish there were more of that on this forum and less bashing people like little kids.

[Illana]

Equally sad to keep arguing with him.

Thanks to Asrialol for a good post though. Wish there were more of that on this forum and less bashing people like little kids.

And your post? What is the point in continuing?

[TJ]

Haste or mastery there is pretty much no difference, ive played with both and ive barely seen any difference at all. Do whatever you feel like because its so close it doesnt matter. Happy christmas guys \o/

[UR1L]

And your post? What is the point in continuing?

hihi, wasn't arguing at least. Seems you got issues with people who disagrees with you or are against you in anyway.

In any case like said previously in the thread the difference between a mastery and a haste build is so small it really doesn't matter unless you play on a World Top10 level and need every last bit of DPS. And even then it's just better to use your mage/rogue alt and do a shitload more damage.

Should just close this topic and similar topics in the future.

[Montrachet]

Funny I moderate on another type of board and people argue just the same...