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  1. #21
    Oh there will almost certainly be ways to be flashy standing around in town. Titles, vanity items etc. Guild Wars has a tiered title track that has a more and more impressive emote you can do, for example.
    Last edited by englanda; 2011-12-21 at 02:55 AM.

  2. #22
    Mechagnome Mkalafut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    Doing the same thing over and over for the chance at a reward is a perfect definition of psychologically programmed skinner box behaviour.
    As usual, Mif tells it how it is and says it right. No Gear Treadmill please. GW2 will work how it's going to be designed already, with DEs and large and small scale pvp being the focus. There are hard mode dungeons as well as I'm sure they'll bring back hard mode in a way (sidekicking) from GW1. Turning low level areas into areas where the mobs outlevel the player even though they originally started or leveled there at one point. There will be plenty of rewards for the "hardcore" players. It just won't be farming Sethekk Halls for 100s of runs HOPING to get a mount or running MC for years on end HOPING you get a Thunderfury binding.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    Doing the same thing over and over for the chance at a reward is a perfect definition of psychologically programmed skinner box behaviour.
    To be fair though, most of the games nowadays function with the idea of the Skinner box in mind.

  4. #24
    The problem with the Skinner Box analogy in gaming is that it is often assumed in the vulgar sense the operation (button press) is not enjoyable. Which doesn't hold true in gaming totally. Many games have repetitive tasks but the action of playing them is "fun"- racing games, FPS games, puzzle games and so on.

    Skinner Box as a model only asserts behavior can be conditioned based on reward schedules. Not that the operation or rewards are wholly undesirable.

    This is further compounded by the fact you get a lot of forum knights who saw an Extra Credits video and are like, "Yes! Dude, exactly!" and it just leads to a lot of low thought.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2011-12-21 at 04:47 AM.

  5. #25
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    To be fair though, most of the games nowadays function with the idea of the Skinner box in mind.
    That's sadly true, but it doesn't mean we should accept it.

  6. #26
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    That's sadly true, but it doesn't mean we should accept it.
    Read what Fencers said. Skinner-box design isn't inherently flawed. It's a design/reward tool that can enhance a game just like every design tool.
    Retired Holy Priest
    As a rule, I try to act on the internet as I would in real life. If I have offended you, feel free to point it out. Unless I meant to offend you, I will probably apologize.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Mkalafut View Post
    As usual, Mif tells it how it is and says it right. No Gear Treadmill please. GW2 will work how it's going to be designed already, with DEs and large and small scale pvp being the focus. There are hard mode dungeons as well as I'm sure they'll bring back hard mode in a way (sidekicking) from GW1. Turning low level areas into areas where the mobs outlevel the player even though they originally started or leveled there at one point. There will be plenty of rewards for the "hardcore" players. It just won't be farming Sethekk Halls for 100s of runs HOPING to get a mount or running MC for years on end HOPING you get a Thunderfury binding.
    Earlier in the year I got one of the Thunderfury bindings and the Eye of Sulfuras in the same run, I can only imagine the chance of that happening are astronomical.

  8. #28
    i feel the game should be able to cater to players without the players asking "what is in it for me if i play your game?" explicitly.
    the game should feel intense and exciting enough to make players come back for more. by itself. without gimmicks.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Foreverlad View Post
    Hardcore gamers work harder to be the best at their class/profession. What more do they need?
    How about reason​ to be the best at their class/profession?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Questar View Post
    i feel the game should be able to cater to players without the players asking "what is in it for me if i play your game?" explicitly.
    the game should feel intense and exciting enough to make players come back for more. by itself. without gimmicks.
    Yep, like nearly any other game in any other genre you play it for fun, not because it needs to provide you with any set goals. Obviously MMOs are very unique in this regard and there's nothing wrong with giving players an incentive, but the game should be fun to just play.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    The problem with the Skinner Box analogy in gaming is that it is often assumed in the vulgar sense the operation (button press) is not enjoyable. Which doesn't hold true in gaming totally. Many games have repetitive tasks but the action of playing them is "fun"- racing games, FPS games, puzzle games and so on.

    Skinner Box as a model only asserts behavior can be conditioned based on reward schedules. Not that the operation or rewards are wholly undesirable.

    This is further compounded by the fact you get a lot of forum knights who saw an Extra Credits video and are like, "Yes! Dude, exactly!" and it just leads to a lot of low thought.
    The point is, if the activity itself was enjoyable you wouldn't need bahavioral tricks to compel the player to do it. You need the mechanic to prolong the game's life beyond the point where running dungeons or killing mobs has completely lost its attactive and you only do it for the reward.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowen View Post
    The point is, if the activity itself was enjoyable you wouldn't need bahavioral tricks to compel the player to do it. You need the mechanic to prolong the game's life beyond the point where running dungeons or killing mobs has completely lost its attractive and you only do it for the reward.
    Naturally. That is simply bad video game. Using a long term reward mechanic in itself is not inherently bad design or indicative of a flawed game, however.

    There are plenty of games where despite repetition the activity of playing is enjoyable- the occasional reward is nice too. "Oh I got a Stone of Jordan!", pretty neat I suppose. I would have been having fun playing Diablo anyway without the drop. The drop is "nice", so to speak, but the activity of playing is all the same- fun.

  13. #33
    The pvp has potential to become e-sport. So join those tournaments and show skill, might eventually end up in IRL cash rewards, not too shabby right?

  14. #34
    Dreadlord Verazh's Avatar
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    WoW and similar games have ruined many new MMO gamers with their Skinner Box setup. People are so used to being spoonfed superior gear that they simply cant seem to comprehend playing a game just to have fun and being good at it. The "WoW-generation" has this crude image of themselves being better than someone else because they have superior gear instead of skills.

    God I cant wait for GW2 to change this

    I fear this wont be the last thread like this, especially when GW2 launch draws near.

  15. #35
    I think the gear treadmill is more of a symptom. I believe the real problem is that most MMOs have very little in terms of content besides endgame (pvp or pve). Since the rest of the world is rendered trivial once your level past it, there is no reason to go back. To keep people happy developers have to continue adding more and more content, each addition trivializing the content before it.

    This is why I believe lowering your level will be such a huge deal for GW2. I can seer myself at max level exploring places just to explore, helping each small town, tribe, person, or animals I come across and enjoying it.
    Last edited by Guilegamesh; 2011-12-21 at 02:53 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Rowen View Post
    The point is, if the activity itself was enjoyable you wouldn't need bahavioral tricks to compel the player to do it. You need the mechanic to prolong the game's life beyond the point where running dungeons or killing mobs has completely lost its attactive and you only do it for the reward.
    As someone who studied usability and usability-related psychology on university level, I can attest that you simply do not know what you're talking about. Skinner box mechanic is very useful for enhancing interaction because action-reward mechanism is hard-wired into humans and often functions as reverse "I do this to get a reward, therefore it is enjoyable".

    There are countless examples of this in our behavioral patterns, from mating rituals to everyday life.


    P.S. You know what's really funny? "Playing well is its own reward"-concept is an excellent example of skinner box mechanic. Playing well gets you to your goal faster and allows you to achieve bigger rewards, therefore it's enjoyable (even if process of playing well is very much masochistic endeavor at best).
    Last edited by Lucky_; 2011-12-21 at 04:08 PM.

  17. #37
    Epic! Milanor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by hellar View Post
    How will lvl 80 gear work? All gear will have the same amount of stats, just the harder DE's/dungeons will give you cooler looking gear?
    All gear will have the same stats, but not necessarily the same effects. And yeah, there'll be many diverse super cool designs for gear too.
    Quote Originally Posted by Reddit AMA
    Question #107: "I have a question about getting gear in PVP. You said that people will be equalized on levels and gear so that there would be no balance issues, so i don't understand how will the gear help us if there will be no difference in the gear we have? "
    Answer: "Because instead of gringding for gear the interesting choice is which gear helps compliment what you are trying to do. Do you get the sword which bleeds when you Crit or one that recharges your dodge meter when you swap weapons? Those are just samples and may not appear in the game but should give you an idea of what different weapon choices might do."

    As for Transmutation stones in PVP, I would assume that they work there. It would be rather silly if they didn't.
    Last edited by Milanor; 2011-12-21 at 05:00 PM.

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  18. #38
    High Overlord Mad hat man's Avatar
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    I'm sure transmutation stones will work in PvP, the looks you've seen in the vidoes are just place holder looks so people could experience th PvP in the demo while they work on a better solution.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Durzlla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milanor View Post
    All gear will have the same stats, but not necessarily the same effects. And yeah, there'll be many diverse super cool designs for gear too.
    Alright i'm sorry... but this is kinda wrong... They will NOT have the same stats... It's true that all gear will plateau at 80 yes, but you still get to choose between different combos of stats. There are 3 types of armor. 1) those that have a lot of one stat, 2) those that have a good amount of 2 stats, and 3) those that have a "decent" amount of 3 stats.

    Here is an example of how stats on items will work, "For example, a Rare Ruby Ring gives +40 power; an equal level Gold Topaz Ring gives +33 power and +25 vitality; and a Pearl Ring gives +25 power, +25 vitality, and +25 toughness. This item system enhances another choice: do you max out one attribute or raise the total effectiveness of all your attributes?"

    Source: http://www.arena.net/blog/pax-east-p...-and-iteration
    Quote Originally Posted by draykorinee View Post
    Youre in the mmo forums and you find mmos boring, Im heading on over to the twilight forums to add my unecessary and shallow 2 cents.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Guilegamesh View Post
    I think the gear treadmill is more of a symptom. I believe the real problem is that most MMOs have very little in terms of content besides endgame (pvp or pve). Since the rest of the world is rendered trivial once your level past it, there is no reason to go back. To keep people happy developers have to continue adding more and more content, each addition trivializing the content before it.
    There is a quite a bit of truth to this. Esp. when Warcraft first came on the scene one of it's most radical departures from other MMOs past/current time was the accessibility & speed one progressed at.

    I remember on the early Warcraft forums people being worried about leveling too quickly. Since the majority of MMO players were EQ/AO/AC players where leveling and non-raid/dungeons were the norm of content. When Warcraft became super popular, the aspects of MMOs that were pre-endgame became greatly diminished in importance and goal.

    Now-a-days [puts on old lady hat], leveling / non-raid/dungeon content is nothing more than a tutorial or delayed gratification. "One day Sally, you will be a real Paladin. But first you have to do all these Kill X/Collect X/Escort Y quests for 84 levels. THEN the actual game we design for can be played."

    It's total bullshit really. Can't wait for that stuff to go away in MMOs.

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