Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Will Guild Wars 2 become a serious cybersport discipline?

    Please post links to official statements about this topic if they exist and your opinion about that. I'd love to see good game balancing, very wide pvp community and frequent championships.
    Will it be serious player on the cybersport arena like StarCrat and Dota or be "just a mmo"?

  2. #2
    The Lightbringer jvbastel's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Flanders
    Posts
    3,557
    Can't provide any links at the time, but Arenanet definitely wants GW2 to become a real e-sports game.

    iirc Players will be able to host tournaments, and there will be weekly/monthly/yearly tournaments, just like in GW1.

    The game is built around being able to have both pve and pvp balance, and was heavily influenced by games like TF2,DOTA, among others.

    If there is ever one true e-sports MMO, GW2 will be it.
    Monk, I need a monk!!!

  3. #3
    High Overlord Mad hat man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    110
    Quote Originally Posted by jvbastel View Post
    If there is ever one true e-sports MMO, GW2 will be it.
    This is pretty much it, Guild Wars 1 was good with balance and had tournaments, and ArenaNet wants Guild Wars 2 to become the same. People who played the PvP part of the demo said themself that the PvP is very balanced and it will surely become an e-sport.

  4. #4
    I've started a topic about it while ago: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...s-talk-e-sport.

    Yes, GW2 has very big potential for being next e-sport competitive game. Why? For starters:
    - dynamic gameplay. Dodges and fluent skills make it more twitch based, a fusion of FPS and DoTa style games
    - no holy trinity means your personal skill will matter more as you're responsible for yourself (no healer to cover your mistakes)
    - conquest style of competitive mode will make teamwork crucial
    - cross profession combos promote ingenuity
    - weapon sets, utility skills, stats and traits make very wide range of viable builds. For example, you will two hammer warriors, but thanks to traits, one will be all about area damage and other will be a CC monster.
    - spectator mode (not officially confirmed, but GW1 had it and all suggests GW2 will have it too)
    and many more...

  5. #5
    i think it will be.
    the devs have a firm agenda for that. they themselves are pvp fanatics and play against each other and other hardcore guilds in exhibition matches. everything we see in gw2 is a build up to that goal.

    as for link to vid... i watched too many to remember any specific one >< youtube for "guild wars 2 developer pvp" or something...

  6. #6
    to Creepjack
    Sorry i missed your topic, now need to read it all from a to z :O
    Last edited by Moonsera; 2011-12-21 at 05:44 PM.

  7. #7
    Don't want to necro the old thread, so I'll just address your claims in here. For the record, I do not think that GW2 will be a bad game for serious PvP, I just believe that it will significant step down from GW1, and that is done on purpose to make it more accessible.

    - dynamic gameplay. Dodges and fluent skills make it more twitch based, a fusion of FPS and DoTa style games
    Two edged sword: You'll alienate those who prefer less twitch which is the type of player who generally gravitates towards RPGs over FPSs. At the same time you're unlikely to attract those who prefer more twitch, i.e. first person shooter fans, because this is still an RPG.

    - no holy trinity means your personal skill will matter more as you're responsible for yourself (no healer to cover your mistakes)
    It also means shorter games and far more burst, meaning personal skill matters less. No one saved your ass in GW1 if you got spiked while in frenzy, and most of the saves in lesser cases weren't healer but control based (knockdowns, blinds...). This doesn't change, while duration of encounter will collapse to a small fraction, meaning less time to make mistakes, or even approach the battle from strategic point of view.

    - conquest style of competitive mode will make teamwork crucial
    Lack of large scale structured PvP like GvG and HoH will make teamwork far less important then in GW1. Communication will likely remain almost as important due to prevalence of splitting, but that's pretty much it.

    - cross profession combos promote ingenuity
    Lack of customization compared to original promotes streamlining and simplification. GW1's "cross combos" such as having one slap reckless haste and other leech mana from misses afterwards or help do damage by blinding was far more customizable and complex. Now you just "shoot stuff through fire".

    - weapon sets, utility skills, stats and traits make very wide range of viable builds. For example, you will two hammer warriors, but thanks to traits, one will be all about area damage and other will be a CC monster.
    You can only customize your secondary skills, weapon skills are fixed. Less conditions, complete lack of hexes. No second profession to dip into at all. In a nutshell, you have a lot less potential builds, a lot less working builds and a lot less ways to do what you want to do compared to GW1.

    - spectator mode (not officially confirmed, but GW1 had it and all suggests GW2 will have it too)
    Is unlikely to be even half as interesting as concentrated long combat a la GvG and HoH is not going to happen due to lack of healers. Instead you'll have short small scale flashpoints all over the map often at the same time which is far less enjoyable to watch, especially in high end games, as was noted in GW1 when watching split teams.



    Again, I'm not going for negativity here. I just feel that you have a ridiculously rosy picture of GW2 in terms of competitive PvP, at least in comparison with GW1, that is completely out of any sort of touch with reality. And GW1 struggled to get to serious cybersport levels, with most tourneys being directly sponsored by arenanet. As a result, I foresee GW2 having far more problems on this front, and considering the design features of GW2, I strongly suspect that professional high level cybersport is simply not what arenanet is aiming for with GW2. The game simply places too much importance on accessibility of the game at the cost of complexity on design level.
    Last edited by Lucky_; 2011-12-22 at 01:29 AM.

  8. #8
    CS has never been all that complex either but still managed to last for years as one of the top esport games.
    oddly enough, many kept saying GW1 was too complicated (thus unattractive and/or un-spectacular as a spectator) to become an actual esport at its time, you claim it'd be the opposite with GW2, pretty funny imo.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by sacrypheyes View Post
    CS has never been all that complex either but still managed to last for years as one of the top esport games.
    It is and it isn't. It's simple enough that anyone can watch it and follow along with what's happening, that's why it had such a broad appeal to gamers during its hayday (and still does to a lesser extent). But at the same time, there was a lot going on as far as strategy both on the team and player level that casual observers didn't see, but veteran gamers could pick up on. Casual observers might not notice the extremely precise burst patterns and how the players change them based on different ranges, but veterans would pick it up in a heartbeat. It's the mixture of surface simplicity and actual depth that made it so popular and makes a lot of the most popular e-sports games...popular.

    That being said, I think it's a bit too early to judge based off of limited experience at conventions and developer statements. I'd love to see it make its way into competitive play (by that I don't mean the way 3's did in WoW, sadly those have always been a joke) but it's going to be EXTREMELY difficult. They need to hit that fine like that CS hit where the game is interesting to watch for people who have little to know knowledge or experience with the game, yet complex enough to allow for a very high skill cap. That's something that's extremely hard to do in a game that involves any kind of randomness (FPS games remove most elements of randomness, there are no crits or misses based on dice rolls) since the randomness can be potentially detrimental to gameplay.

    Honestly I can see it, at the least, giving it a solid shot. Whether or not it pans out will be up to gamers in general. If its interesting enough to watch and competitive enough to be taken seriously (i.e. balanced), gamers will make sure it succeeds. If it's not, then it will still probably find a small following in competitive gaming somewhere.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    It is and it isn't. It's simple enough that anyone can watch it and follow along with what's happening, that's why it had such a broad appeal to gamers during its hayday (and still does to a lesser extent). But at the same time, there was a lot going on as far as strategy both on the team and player level that casual observers didn't see, but veteran gamers could pick up on.
    still, what i meant as a response to Lucky_ is that CS was a very accessible game (doubt anyone could tell me otherwise), not all that complex for starters but indeed very strategic as you got to deal with more and more skilled teams. just because GW2 may seem more accessible on the surface (which it is i guess) doesn't mean high ranked PvP games won't have any touch of complexity.
    Hell, even classes mechanics are fairly easy to grasp, but that won't make them as easy to master at all.

  11. #11
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    The Black Citadel
    Posts
    3,638
    One major thing that makes Guild Wars 2 a good candidate for an E-Sport is that the combat is visceral. An average spectator can easily grasp that a player is dodging out of the way or that that player is getting hit, or this player is in a downed state. GW2 combat is very visual and that helps serve the 'sport' aspect.

    Here's a question you could ask yourself. Could you watch a fight from a 3rd person view and understand who's playing better without a commentator.
    "Questions are for those seeking answers. Those who have answers are those who have asked questions." -Mike R. (Malthurius)

  12. #12
    Mechagnome durza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    hidden rain village
    Posts
    712
    I would say it will, iv watched some pvp and it was very interesting to spectate so it will be more of an esport then wow from the start. now, will it be a bigger esport then say .... starcraf2? i dont know, if have to guess no but i haven't seen gw2 at the highest professional lvls of play yet so there might be a possibility. overall i just want to play this game to find out
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  13. #13
    Hopefully the game's PVP abilities and scenarios themselves won't revolve around "e-sports"(what a laughable term) balancing to the point of making it turn into wow's CC/focus fire/kill the healers/pose as a pro drudgery.

    MMOs like Global Agenda and Crimecraft have taking excellent steps towards incorporating adaptable and improvisatory tactics that make use of terrain and mobility outside of box and pillar humping, and encourage players to create new fighting techniques for PVP.

    Make GW2 like "SC2" and dota? Why, so as to kill any innovation in terms of intelligent tactics? Dota itself is a mimic of wow arenas, which to any non-deluded person are a far cry from a good foundation for interesting, intelligent PVP.
    Last edited by ragnarokvr1; 2011-12-22 at 04:49 AM.

  14. #14
    Mechagnome durza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    hidden rain village
    Posts
    712
    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarokvr1 View Post
    Hopefully the game's PVP abilities and scenarios themselves won't revolve around "e-sports"(what a laughable term) balancing to the point of making it turn into wow's CC/focus fire/kill the healers/pose as a pro drudgery.

    MMOs like Global Agenda and Crimecraft have taking excellent steps towards incorporating adaptable and improvisatory tactics that make use of terrain and mobility outside of box and pillar humping, and encourage players to create new fighting techniques for PVP.

    Make GW2 like "SC2" and dota? Why, so as to kill any innovation in terms of intelligent tactics? Dota itself is a mimic of wow arenas, which to any non-deluded person are a far cry from a good foundation for interesting, intelligent PVP.
    well u made it clear u have no idea what your talking about, also care to tell me how esports is a laughable term? have u ever seen the gsl or notice how much money pro sc2 players make?
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by ragnarokvr1 View Post
    Make GW2 like "SC2" and dota? Why, so as to kill any innovation in terms of intelligent tactics? Dota itself is a mimic of wow arenas, which to any non-deluded person are a far cry from a good foundation for interesting, intelligent PVP.
    I didn't ask will GW2 be similar to SC2 or Dota, i only asked if it will have such a success as those games in terms of cybersport. I don't want it to be so mouse apm dependent :O

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    The Black Citadel
    Posts
    3,638
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    Don't want to necro the old thread, so I'll just address your claims in here. For the record, I do not think that GW2 will be a bad game for serious PvP, I just believe that it will significant step down from GW1, and that is done on purpose to make it more accessible.


    Two edged sword: You'll alienate those who prefer less twitch which is the type of player who generally gravitates towards RPGs over FPSs. At the same time you're unlikely to attract those who prefer more twitch, i.e. first person shooter fans, because this is still an RPG.
    The game still has RPG elements. Theory Crafting and strategy still exist outside of combat but the combat is fast paced and visual. It's better to have an E-Sport you can visually see whats going on than an E-Sport where RNG (dodge/parry) can throw an uninformed audience for a loop. RNG has to be explained, a character rolling out of the way of an arrow does not.


    It also means shorter games and far more burst, meaning personal skill matters less. No one saved your ass in GW1 if you got spiked while in frenzy, and most of the saves in lesser cases weren't healer but control based (knockdowns, blinds...). This doesn't change, while duration of encounter will collapse to a small fraction, meaning less time to make mistakes, or even approach the battle from strategic point of view.
    GW2 and GW1 are completely different in almost every way and shouldn't be compared when talking about gameplay mechanics. People don't die within seconds in GW2, you can tell that from just watching a few good pvp videos on youtube, and even if you do manage to burst a player down (I have yet to see it happen) you still have to finish him, which takes a good 3-5 seconds of casting and any opposing player can stop you and rez the player you tried to finish, or the other team member can just start fighting you and the person you downed will jump back up if he can get a kill.


    Lack of large scale structured PvP like GvG and HoH will make teamwork far less important then in GW1. Communication will likely remain almost as important due to prevalence of splitting, but that's pretty much it.
    Large scale usually means less teamwork because more slack can be carried by the better players. Smaller groups call for more coordination.


    Lack of customization compared to original promotes streamlining and simplification. GW1's "cross combos" such as having one slap reckless haste and other leech mana from misses afterwards or help do damage by blinding was far more customizable and complex. Now you just "shoot stuff through fire".
    Cross combos are something you learn in the game and they are much more than just shooting projectiles through elemental fields on the ground. It's much more about position and skill than what build you have. It's actually more customizable because you don't have to change the way you play to support someone else's build.


    You can only customize your secondary skills, weapon skills are fixed. Less conditions, complete lack of hexes. No second profession to dip into at all. In a nutshell, you have a lot less potential builds, a lot less working builds and a lot less ways to do what you want to do compared to GW1.
    Let's use GW2 warrior for a good example of why you are wrong on this one. The warrior has 19 different weapon combination choices, you can have two weapon sets to switch between at any given time giving you 361 combinations to choose from on your first five skills alone, not including the last 5 which are chosen by the player.

    The elementalist can't switch weapons in combat but they have 25 skills at their disposal at one time, 20 of which are dependent on their attunement and weapon.

    Not to mention traits which change the way your skills work and we have no idea how many of those there are in the game.


    Is unlikely to be even half as interesting as concentrated long combat a la GvG and HoH is not going to happen due to lack of healers. Instead you'll have short small scale flashpoints all over the map often at the same time which is far less enjoyable to watch, especially in high end games, as was noted in GW1 when watching split teams.
    The game is balanced around lack of healers. As I've said, fights aren't short at all if you've watched any videos. A good player can survive for a long time because the game is designed that way.



    Again, I'm not going for negativity here. I just feel that you have a ridiculously rosy picture of GW2 in terms of competitive PvP, at least in comparison with GW1, that is completely out of any sort of touch with reality. And GW1 struggled to get to serious cybersport levels, with most tourneys being directly sponsored by arenanet. As a result, I foresee GW2 having far more problems on this front, and considering the design features of GW2, I strongly suspect that professional high level cybersport is simply not what arenanet is aiming for with GW2. The game simply places too much importance on accessibility of the game at the cost of complexity on design level.
    There is a lot of complexity in the game that you just didn't bother looking into before typing your opinion.
    Last edited by Malthurius; 2011-12-22 at 05:10 AM.
    "Questions are for those seeking answers. Those who have answers are those who have asked questions." -Mike R. (Malthurius)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    Don't want to necro the old thread, so I'll just address your claims in here. For the record, I do not think that GW2 will be a bad game for serious PvP, I just believe that it will significant step down from GW1, and that is done on purpose to make it more accessible.
    I hear that often, but seriously.. GW1 never even get close to a number of players who played the game professionally on the level of even weak FPS or DOTA style game. So in that sense, less similar to GW1 = better.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    Two edged sword: You'll alienate those who prefer less twitch which is the type of player who generally gravitates towards RPGs over FPSs. At the same time you're unlikely to attract those who prefer more twitch, i.e. first person shooter fans, because this is still an RPG.
    Actually I'm very close to tournaments, in the other topic I've already said that I run quite a few events per year on national scale in FPS and DoTa like games. I'm as close to competetive gaming as one can be. And I can say you this: there is huge interest in GW2 on both player's and sponsor's side. FPS players love the twitch reaction time style and DoTa players are attracted through very unique META game (wpns, u-skills, traits and stat distribution). We have a guy here who is SC2 maniac, but I've already caught him checking out all the videos he could . As I've said above, there is much more bigger player base for GW2 than there ever was for GW1. Also.. 5v5 format is better for tournaments.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    It also means shorter games and far more burst, meaning personal skill matters less. No one saved your ass in GW1 if you got spiked while in frenzy, and most of the saves in lesser cases weren't healer but control based (knockdowns, blinds...). This doesn't change, while duration of encounter will collapse to a small fraction, meaning less time to make mistakes, or even approach the battle from strategic point of view.
    Hmm.. you haven't watch much of GW2 pvp footage, did you? Fights CAN be spiky, but your personal skill is crucial cause 2v1 is very doable when you know what are you doing. It's all about timing dodge, watching your CDs and most importantly - situational awareness. That's what drives players in. As for the team work.. in 5v5 conquest style gameplay it will be even more important than in GVG(gw1). Planning, timing and coordination will be a key to victory. People don't realize how conquest mode can be very challenging and requires huge amount of team effort.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    Lack of large scale structured PvP like GvG and HoH will make teamwork far less important then in GW1. Communication will likely remain almost as important due to prevalence of splitting, but that's pretty much it.
    I partially answered this above but I will add some more. Large scale happens in WvWvW. Small competitive play happens in structured 5v5 - and thank god cause getting 10 players per every team to big tournament (even only on a national scale) would be logistical nightmare. Large scale will never truly get competitive. And before you say that GW1 had it - no it didn't. At peak of GW1, competitive players in GvG were a very small fraction of what even quake3 or Dota player base had.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    Lack of customization compared to original promotes streamlining and simplification. GW1's "cross combos" such as having one slap reckless haste and other leech mana from misses afterwards or help do damage by blinding was far more customizable and complex. Now you just "shoot stuff through fire".
    That's correct, because there is MAJOR switch in gameplay. Decisions and actions taken during combat are far more important in GW2 than those made before actual fight (like it was in GW1). Not saying one way is better, I'm just saying they are VERY different and both good approaches to the game. It's that GW1 style appealed to much, much smaller crowd. Now, I think we should stop comparing GW2 to GW1, it's just a different game.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    You can only customize your secondary skills, weapon skills are fixed. Less conditions, complete lack of hexes. No second profession to dip into at all. In a nutshell, you have a lot less potential builds, a lot less working builds and a lot less ways to do what you want to do compared to GW1.
    Again, your lack of knowledge about GW2 comes out. I think this amount of conditions is enough: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Condition . Anything more and it's just a fluff. Also it is other way around, yes you end up with smaller builds pool, but you get MORE viable builds. You also forgot about traits.. which influence both weapon and utility skills. It is possible to create two very different hammer warriors: one will be about CC and other about AoE damage. Traits can turn skills around by 180 degrees.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    Is unlikely to be even half as interesting as concentrated long combat a la GvG and HoH is not going to happen due to lack of healers. Instead you'll have short small scale flashpoints all over the map often at the same time which is far less enjoyable to watch, especially in high end games, as was noted in GW1 when watching split teams.
    Again, completely different gameplay. Can you honestly say that quake 3 is boring because there is no healers? Quake 3 to date has the most challenging and difficult Team Deathmatch and yet there is no healers or builds. Yes, you should compare GW2 with those type of games, not GW1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    Again, I'm not going for negativity here. I just feel that you have a ridiculously rosy picture of GW2 in terms of competitive PvP, at least in comparison with GW1, that is completely out of any sort of touch with reality. And GW1 struggled to get to serious cybersport levels, with most tourneys being directly sponsored by arenanet. As a result, I foresee GW2 having far more problems on this front, and considering the design features of GW2, I strongly suspect that professional high level cybersport is simply not what arenanet is aiming for with GW2. The game simply places too much importance on accessibility of the game at the cost of complexity on design level.
    It is their official statement that they are going out of their way to promote it as an e-sport. Also everything you've mentioned (and many others) is because you want "upgraded GW1" and you got totally different game. We need to stop comparing GW2 to GW1.. everyday I think they have less and less in common - and to be honest.. thank god. Sorry for being bit brutal, but GW1 never had a chance for wide competitive audience, it just too narrowed game.

  18. #18
    Warchief Northy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,123
    Quote Originally Posted by Moonsera View Post
    Please post links to official statements about this topic if they exist and your opinion about that. I'd love to see good game balancing, very wide pvp community and frequent championships.
    Will it be serious player on the cybersport arena like StarCrat and Dota or be "just a mmo"?
    They have stated that GW2 is pushing for the massive e-sport market and attempting to make a game to fit that.
    e-sport = game exposure = money. every mmo should do it really. WoW had it big time throughout bc and wotlk, but cata pvp is horrendous.

  19. #19
    Mechagnome durza's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    hidden rain village
    Posts
    712
    honestly i dont see why u put forth so much effort on someone who is trolling rather blatantly

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-22 at 02:19 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Northy View Post
    They have stated that GW2 is pushing for the massive e-sport market and attempting to make a game to fit that.
    e-sport = game exposure = money. every mmo should do it really. WoW had it big time throughout bc and wotlk, but cata pvp is horrendous.
    wow pvp was always horrendous and horrible to spectate
    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  20. #20
    Warchief Northy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    2,123
    Quote Originally Posted by durza View Post
    honestly i dont see why u put forth so much effort on someone who is trolling rather blatantly

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-22 at 02:19 AM ----------

    wow pvp was always horrendous and horrible to spectate
    I really enjoyed playing and watching 3s/5s arena in BC and WotlK. Cata has been a failure though that's true. High hopes for GW2

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •