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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    I still don't quite understand why the 75% cap even exists... you would quickly run into unreachable amounts of armor after this point, even when you use the old vanilla formula, long before you reach 100%.

    It could be helpful(though, seeing current armor values, probably unnecessary) for bear tanks in MoP for this hard cap to be removed or increased to 99%, especially if the Mastery remains as putting us on the Way of the Obstructing Rock for tanking.
    In TBC reaching the armor cap wasn't hard, I reached it in T4 afaik. The cap was needed because as people already have said, armor became so nice at that point balancing raids would be a nightmare. It's kinda like warriors and mastery right now but worse.

  2. #22
    That's not really a problem related to the cap, but to armor scaling, though.

    It still doesn't explain why the cap was implemented in the first place.

  3. #23
    Deleted
    I've been thinking about reforging some of my Dodge into Mastery as well but decided to stay with Dodge. I've got a 4p bonus and with MotW I've got 40% Dodge but my Mastery rating is only 807. Sitting at 53.5% Armor.

    Edit: I'm at 6.7% Hit and 35 Expertise. These numbers will change, as I replace the "unwanted" items as the Tier head. Only using it, to gain the 4p bonus right here and now. When I get my optimal items, I will gain some more Mastery and loose some of the Expertise.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    I've been thinking about reforging some of my Dodge into Mastery as well but decided to stay with Dodge. I've got a 4p bonus and with MotW I've got 40% Dodge but my Mastery rating is only 807. Sitting at 53.5% Armor.

    Edit: I'm at 6.7% Hit and 35 Expertise. These numbers will change, as I replace the "unwanted" items as the Tier head. Only using it, to gain the 4p bonus right here and now. When I get my optimal items, I will gain some more Mastery and loose some of the Expertise.
    You should change your reforging or gearing strategy if you have that much expertise.

    Only aim for the expertise soft cap (26), and no higher. Expertise just up to the soft cap is a great stat since it dips into both a dodge roll and a parry roll. Even then, I would not recommend reforging into expertise if you're a full time tank. Anything above the soft cap only contributes towards the parry roll; expertise really tanks in value after that.

    The same applies for all hit really, it is not as valuable as avoidance/mitigation stats since it can't double dip into two rolls.
    Last edited by earthwormjim; 2011-12-26 at 06:06 AM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    You should change your reforging or gearing strategy if you have that much expertise.

    Only aim for the expertise soft cap (26), and no higher. Expertise just up to the soft cap is a great stat since it dips into both a dodge roll and a parry roll. Even then, I would not recommend reforging into expertise if you're a full time tank. Anything above the soft cap only contributes towards the parry roll; expertise really tanks in value after that.

    The same applies for all hit really, it is not as valuable as avoidance/mitigation stats since it can't double dip into two rolls.
    earthworm, I think he is not reforging toward Expertise, T13 gears have a lot of Expertise and it is getting silly.

    What i mean by that is that we have two belt that good, one is Haste/Mastery while the other one is Expertise/Crit.

    The clear winner is Expertise/Crit, well....It is not. We are getting pass the Soft cap due to the other gears that is making the Haste/Mastery becoming a stronger winner.

    Like I am reforging all of my exp toward dodge and I am at 28 Expertise. In fact if i redo my helm reforging: haste to dodge, my exp go into 30 something.

  6. #26
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    You should change your reforging or gearing strategy if you have that much expertise.

    Only aim for the expertise soft cap (26), and no higher. Expertise just up to the soft cap is a great stat since it dips into both a dodge roll and a parry roll. Even then, I would not recommend reforging into expertise if you're a full time tank. Anything above the soft cap only contributes towards the parry roll; expertise really tanks in value after that.

    The same applies for all hit really, it is not as valuable as avoidance/mitigation stats since it can't double dip into two rolls.
    And you should have read my post, before replying to it. If you had, I clearly stated that those stats will change, as soon as I get the BiS items. As Auroro said, T13 has a crap ton of Expertise and due to the 4p bonus being a raid wall, I just had to take what I could get as fast as possible. Some of the items has Haste/Expertise, which do you reforge? Keep Haste? No point, since Haste gives nothing.

    Also, do you really think I would sit on 40% Dodge, if I reforged into Expertise?

    You should have a look at this Tiers itemization, then my post would probably make more sense - assuming you read it all^^

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    The clear winner is Expertise/Crit, well....It is not. We are getting pass the Soft cap due to the other gears that is making the Haste/Mastery becoming a stronger winner.
    Exp to hard cap > haste.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    Exp to hard cap > haste.
    Axxey, if you been reading the Bear guide forum here in MMO.

    You will see that Katarn and rated listed the Haste/Mastery as a better choice due to too many Expertise on our gears in T13.

    If you wanted to start a war, i am telling you Don't.

    Going for Hard cap is just being silly, you only need 26 Expertise and that it.

    T13 is creating what i called unbalance between dodge and mastery. Even i look at mr robot, it is telling me to reforge and gem toward mastery when we still said that dodge is better.

    I think due to the T13 2p bonus is the cause of the problem: making mastery sky rocket along with Expertise.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Danishgirl View Post
    And you should have read my post, before replying to it. If you had, I clearly stated that those stats will change, as soon as I get the BiS items. As Auroro said, T13 has a crap ton of Expertise and due to the 4p bonus being a raid wall, I just had to take what I could get as fast as possible. Some of the items has Haste/Expertise, which do you reforge? Keep Haste? No point, since Haste gives nothing.

    Also, do you really think I would sit on 40% Dodge, if I reforged into Expertise?

    You should have a look at this Tiers itemization, then my post would probably make more sense - assuming you read it all^^
    I still don't see how you're at 35 expertise. I had the tier pieces (and t12 chest) and that awful belt with expertise and was able to get down to 26.

    40% dodge isn't hard to get from agility gemming and the new gear.

    I saw what you said about new gear, however 35 just seems so high. Don't take things so personal, nothing I said was meant to be insulting, I was simply curious how you were that high in expertise after reforging.

    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Axxey, if you been reading the Bear guide forum here in MMO.

    You will see that Katarn and rated listed the Haste/Mastery as a better choice due to too many Expertise on our gears in T13.

    If you wanted to start a war, i am telling you Don't.

    Going for Hard cap is just being silly, you only need 26 Expertise and that it.

    T13 is creating what i called unbalance between dodge and mastery. Even i look at mr robot, it is telling me to reforge and gem toward mastery when we still said that dodge is better.

    I think due to the T13 2p bonus is the cause of the problem: making mastery sky rocket along with Expertise.
    I don't see how the two piece could change the stat weights that much. Dodge was so much higher than mastery in t12. The 2 piece only affects mangle, which has a cooldown. It is very nice though when berserk is up.

    I suppose the vengence change could have a large effect though on our mastery. In firelands I would sometimes get below 50% vengence; that never happens now.
    Last edited by earthwormjim; 2011-12-27 at 12:12 AM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Axxey, if you been reading the Bear guide forum here in MMO.

    You will see that Katarn and rated listed the Haste/Mastery as a better choice due to too many Expertise on our gears in T13.

    If you wanted to start a war, i am telling you Don't.

    Going for Hard cap is just being silly, you only need 26 Expertise and that it.
    Axxey is not claiming that we should go for the exp hard cap. He's saying that Expertise Rating beyond the softcap is still better than Haste Rating, and he is correct on that. Haste Rating is *THAT* terrible a stat.

    T13 is creating what i called unbalance between dodge and mastery. Even i look at mr robot, it is telling me to reforge and gem toward mastery when we still said that dodge is better.
    I think due to the T13 2p bonus is the cause of the problem: making mastery sky rocket along with Expertise.
    I don't really see any evidence of "skyrocketing mastery". From my spreadsheet and my own profile, these are my stat values.
    Without 2T13: Mastery = .513 Dodge = .711
    With 2T13: Mastery = .560 Dodge = .674

    This is with boss parameter set to 215k/1.5s, probably a low estimate of 10N DS. I don't see how amr can claim that Dodge is better, and there is no way anyone can know because we can't see their source, but my guess is they still have boss parameters set to N FL or they have messed up SD uptime calculations.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by tangedyn View Post
    I don't really see any evidence of "skyrocketing mastery". From my spreadsheet and my own profile, these are my stat values.
    Without 2T13: Mastery = .513 Dodge = .711
    With 2T13: Mastery = .560 Dodge = .674

    This is with boss parameter set to 215k/1.5s, probably a low estimate of 10N DS. I don't see how amr can claim that Dodge is better, and there is no way anyone can know because we can't see their source, but my guess is they still have boss parameters set to N FL or they have messed up SD uptime calculations.
    Ok here is their stats weight:

    T12:
    Agility: 1.00
    Dodge: 0.98
    Armor: 0.60
    Mastery: 0.57
    Stamina: 0.41
    Expertise: 0.31
    Crit: 0.28
    Hit: 0.16
    Strength: 0.12
    Attack Power: 0.12
    Haste: 0.04
    Resilience: 0
    Spell Pen: 0

    T13:
    Agility: 1.00
    Dodge: 0.98
    Mastery: 0.81
    Armor: 0.66
    Expertise: 0.41
    Stamina: 0.40
    Crit: 0.30
    Hit: 0.21
    Strength: 0.14
    Attack Power: 0.13
    Haste: 0.04
    Resilience: 0
    Spell Pen: 0

    Something did cause the mastery to jump from fourth to third: 0.24 jump. Same thing happen to Expertise: 0.10 jump.

    I do wish i could link you the Mr.Robot's idea of best in slot list and you will find that all the red gems are Agility/Mastery when they should been Agility. The yellow are pure mastery, and the blue are stamina/mastery.

    I also counted four reforge toward mastery, the rest are dodge.

    I do aree that Mr. robot is going under beta testing and their math is off.

    The weight should been.

    T13:
    Agility: 1.00
    Dodge: 0.98
    Mastery: 0.6
    Armor: 0.66
    Expertise: 0.41
    Stamina: 0.40
    Crit: 0.30
    Hit: 0.21
    Strength: 0.14
    Attack Power: 0.13
    Haste: 0.04
    Resilience: 0
    Spell Pen: 0

    Which does change the red gem to agility, i do not know how low mastery need to be to change the yellow gem to agility/dodge.

  12. #32
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by earthwormjim View Post
    I still don't see how you're at 35 expertise. I had the tier pieces (and t12 chest) and that awful belt with expertise and was able to get down to 26.

    40% dodge isn't hard to get from agility gemming and the new gear.

    I saw what you said about new gear, however 35 just seems so high. Don't take things so personal, nothing I said was meant to be insulting, I was simply curious how you were that high in expertise after reforging.



    I don't see how the two piece could change the stat weights that much. Dodge was so much higher than mastery in t12. The 2 piece only affects mangle, which has a cooldown. It is very nice though when berserk is up.

    I suppose the vengence change could have a large effect though on our mastery. In firelands I would sometimes get below 50% vengence; that never happens now.
    I'm not taking it personally at all, I just get annoyed when it looks like people don't even bother to read what I write.

    Why would I stack Agility in a Tier with a lot of magical damage? And the Tier pieces aren't the only 4 pieces I wear^^ As I said, I am working on changing gear and in that process, I am stuck on too much Expertise. And this is where it looked like, you didn't bother to read......

    The stats will change, as I get my BiS items.

  13. #33
    Well yes, with 2T13 all the stat weights that help savage defense are going to move up relative to dodge. With amr recommending mastery over dodge, you'd expect that the stat values for mastery to be higher than dodge, but no.. amr has calculated that dodge is better than mastery yet it recommends gemming/reforging for mastery....

    Since agility also contributes to savage defense, the value of dodge should go down relative to agility, but that didn't happen for amr, so I suspect amr forgot that Agility contributes to attack power and/or crit, especially since all the stat values are so high relative to agility.

    TBH I have no idea why anyone would use amr atm. It's a black box with unverifiable math, the stat values used are questionable, and the reforge strategy conflicts with its own stat values.

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-27 at 07:42 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    You will see that Katarn and rated listed the Haste/Mastery as a better choice due to too many Expertise on our gears in T13.
    Haste/Mastery gear being better than Expertise/Crit gear has nothing to do with being below or above the Expertise softcap. In both cases, Haste/Mastery is clearly better. Not hard to prove too.
    Using stat values haste = .05, hit = .15, exp = crit = .3, mastery = .55, dodge = .65

    A piece of gear with 100 Haste and 100 Mastery (Haste->Dodge reforge) will score 84
    A piece of gear with 100 Crit and 100 Exp (Exp->Dodge reforge) will score 74 below softcap, 65 above softcap.

    Mastery being so much better than exp/hit/crit is what really counts.
    Last edited by tangedyn; 2011-12-27 at 11:43 AM.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Auroro View Post
    Something did cause the mastery to jump from fourth to third: 0.24 jump. Same thing happen to Expertise: 0.10 jump.
    Yes ask mr robot remains just as rubish as it's always been for bears.

  15. #35
    Deleted
    Sounds interesting and i got same results with rawr. I will try that different reforging when we start ds with my guild.

  16. #36
    Haste/Mastery gear being better than Expertise/Crit gear has nothing to do with being below or above the Expertise softcap.
    It's just more blatently obvious when you're over the Exp softcap.

  17. #37
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    To be exact I only said the haste/mastery belt was BiS for normal gear because you'd already be at the expertise softcap with everything else very easily.

    And when it comes to druid tanks I got to jump on the hate train for mrrobot. I actually like that site and use it to help optimize 2 of my DPS toons and it has worked out well for me, but it has NEVER been a viable source to use in optimizing my druid tank. It's just sooo wrong.

  18. #38
    Deleted
    Well I am going to replce my heroic BoE belt from FL with the Haste/Mastery belt to get more Mastery and to drop some Expertise, that's for sure. Since it's purchased for VP, it's quite easy and doesn't really matter.

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