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  1. #21
    If you just say that's an exception though, there are ALOT of exceptions, to the point of it being a rule in itself. Just pointing out that there are a bunch of skills that were between 1 and 20 points, as well as a few at 1 point, so saying you had to have skills at 20 points isn't really correct. Without actually going and checking, I'm willing to bet most classes had at least 1 skill they didn't max(not 1 point wonders) when min/maxing their char. There are TONS of different builds that can clear hell mode with 8 characters. Most of the time you just needed the right items to augment the skills you wanted to use (Auradin, Charged Boltress, etc).

    Yes you would never put less then 20 points in frozen orb if you were an orb sorc any many other skills, but there is a lot of skills that break the rules. Maybe you want some utility, so you put a few points in frost nova. Putting 20points into something may stop you from getting some other ability. At the end of the day I expect it to basically be the same as d3 as once you pick one ability it will narrow your choice of other abilities, 2 will narrow it more etc. How does it actually make much of a difference which system you use? D3 Should have a bit more customisation, but I really don't expect it to blow d2 out of the water.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Willfox View Post
    At the end of the day I expect it to basically be the same as d3 as once you pick one ability it will narrow your choice of other abilities, 2 will narrow it more etc. How does it actually make much of a difference which system you use? D3 Should have a bit more customisation, but I really don't expect it to blow d2 out of the water.
    I see and agree to your point, but I think you forget about runestones, they have an tremendous effect on making a build.
    While it might be stupid to use skill A and B in the same build, it could be very clever to do so if you add a specific runestone to skill B.

    Maybe I am expecting to much of the active/passive/runestone combinations, I could be wrong.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Raizuda View Post
    Am I missing something? All skills wil be available? So basically you will have swap strategists and runewhores? Why not just call it "class powers" and be more truthful? A skill is developed and honed, often to the exclusion of others. These aren't skills. Slot jamming and situational choices might make for decent gaming strategy but it slaughters build variation doesn't it? I'm not trying to purposely be negative, but without being able to develop low level skills more extensively to compete with higher level skills, I don't see rune variants providing much variety or giving players reason to use any but the most recently selected skills. If I'm wrong PLEASE correct me, because I'm a bit worried...
    This skill system is ment to be an insult, Blizzard stated the reason its this simple is because the lesser skilled people couldt utilize the old tree properly.
    Last edited by Zeta333; 2011-12-29 at 11:33 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta333 View Post
    This skill system is ment to be an insult, Blizzard stated the reason its this simple is because the lesser skilled people could utilize the old tree properly.
    Still blindfolded?

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta333 View Post
    This skill system is ment to be an insult, Blizzard stated the reason its this simple is because the lesser skilled people could utilize the old tree properly.
    Knowing builds = skill?

  6. #26
    After playing with the calculator a bit, it seemed easy to pick the best skill set for a specific role for all classes, knowing the right bosses which will drop the best items/the most items and how their mechanics work there will be a few builds for them. Pretty much the same as in D2. If you were a sorc teleport + mana shield/vit depending on your choice. If you were a hammerdin = enigma + hammer synergies; smiter smite synergies etc. The runes will depened if you have enough mana/arcane/hatered generation to kill a boss + specific skill whether he summons adds or not.
    Last edited by Formoor; 2011-12-29 at 11:10 PM.
    This kingdom shall fall, and from the ashes shall arise a new order that will shake the very foundations of the world.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Formoor View Post
    After playing with the calculator a bit, it seemed easy to pick the best skill set for a specific role for all classes, knowing the right bosses which will drop the best items/the most items and how their mechanics work there will be a few builds for them. Pretty much the same as in D2. If you were a sorc teleport + mana shield/vit depending on your choice. If you were a hammerdin = enigma + hammer synergies; smiter smite synergies etc. The runes will depened if you have enough mana/arcane/hatered generation to kill a boss + specific skill whether he summons adds or not.
    Drops at the highest level are balanced around every location being viable to search for drops.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiada View Post
    Knowing builds = skill?
    Knowing how to pull every last bit out of your spec and class in d2 is what set apart people from those who knew how to use google and those who just randomly put shit anywhere in thier skill tree.

  9. #29
    the current skill system of Diablo III can be considered a good system in the perspective of Game Design.
    In the end it reaches the same effect of the skill tree while maintaining the flexibility of a flat ability point

    Be that with the skill treee depending on the spec you could end up using around 4-5 ability and some passive.

    With this system you still end up with 5-6 abilities and 3 passive, same thing.

    Runes and the skillset you can choose add that depth that the "point" system had and allow you alot of different possible builds. I do not see that much difference except eliminating the frustration if you misclicked on a point and the necessity to have a respec system where you have to manually reallocate all the points.

    I think people are too attached and clinging to the old game design of a talent tree where points and dependancies where part of the thing. One thing I hated in the skill trees was to have to put point into a compeltely useless skill in order to reach another.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Caiada View Post
    1) All skills are viable.

    2) The point system was, though conceptually sound, completely inappropriate for Diablo, a game mostly about the damage you do. A non-maxed skill was basically a useless skill in D2 sans a few one point wonders, but I can't think of a build off-hand that put a skill at anything between 1 or 20 unless it was because you ran out of points. Changing Diablo to fit to the point system would be counter-intuitive.
    Summon necro - 10 points in sumon skeletal magi OR 10 points into poison, excess points into a golem of your choice.
    Poison necro - 10 points into Lower resists curse, excess points go into corpse explosion
    Bowazon - 10 points into critical strikes (1 excess point left over - goes into dodge)
    werebear druid - 5 points into Maul, excess points (5) to be distributed as you see fit.

    Don't remember anymore right away but these are afew pretty standard bits from builds where you don't put 20 points in a skill because it has a breaking point where it starts to scale poorly, usually around 10.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    Summon necro - 10 points in sumon skeletal magi OR 10 points into poison, excess points into a golem of your choice.
    Poison necro - 10 points into Lower resists curse, excess points go into corpse explosion
    Bowazon - 10 points into critical strikes (1 excess point left over - goes into dodge)
    werebear druid - 5 points into Maul, excess points (5) to be distributed as you see fit.

    Don't remember anymore right away but these are afew pretty standard bits from builds where you don't put 20 points in a skill because it has a breaking point where it starts to scale poorly, usually around 10.
    You put only 1 point into magi, rest went into Bone Shield synergies so that you can survive in case something hits you.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Verdugo View Post
    You put only 1 point into magi, rest went into Bone Shield synergies so that you can survive in case something hits you.
    Nope,
    the full list is as follows:
    20 Summon Resist
    20 Summon Skeleton
    20 Skeleton Mastery
    10 Summon Magi
    5 Revive
    5 Clay golem(at 6 their slow starts scaling poorly)
    1 in bone shield and all curses aswell as requirements for revive and summon resists.

    Leaves 4 points to be used at either more slow for the clay golem, better revive or into bonewall for improved boneshield.
    As I'm playing hardcore and nothing but hardcore however I tend to have abit more health than others, thus I can take a hit just fine, bosses are cake, all you do is throw a clay golem right at them and renew it and they're so slow that they can't hit you at all.

  13. #33
    I love Diablo 2, but there are a very limited number of skill distributions and skills you'll see used at max level successfully. The design of that skill system was that you'd have a few skills that you'd pump up, and it was usually the level 30 skills. Eventually they added the synergies, but those actually just pigeon-holed you even more, as the game designers DIDN'T WANT you to be able to have a maxed out fully-effective frost orb and meteor on the same character. They wanted to force you into one or the other. In Diablo 3, the design is that you have a boatload of skills that are supposed to all be viable. They are trying to give you more choice. Whether the game turns out to be more fun or not, we'll see, but I think the more insulting design was Diablo 2's, as it tried to force you into builds.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    Nope,
    the full list is as follows:
    20 Summon Resist
    20 Summon Skeleton
    20 Skeleton Mastery
    10 Summon Magi
    5 Revive
    5 Clay golem(at 6 their slow starts scaling poorly)
    1 in bone shield and all curses aswell as requirements for revive and summon resists.

    Leaves 4 points to be used at either more slow for the clay golem, better revive or into bonewall for improved boneshield.
    As I'm playing hardcore and nothing but hardcore however I tend to have abit more health than others, thus I can take a hit just fine, bosses are cake, all you do is throw a clay golem right at them and renew it and they're so slow that they can't hit you at all.
    Ok so let use this for the sake of comparison with the new system.
    In this build we have:
    2 passive,
    4 active

    plus all the "one point" stuff we have to reach the spells but those does not really count in the end.
    And then we have 4 free points.

    Now we will have:
    6 active ability
    3 passive

    We have to chose both of those from a wide range of skills that are also giving us the chance to "hybridize" our character, something that as Friendzie pointed out was limited due to sinerfgies in the end.

    What about those 4 point? Those can be interpreted as the current Rune system, do we want more slow? more power? a slightly different effect? an area of effect? fire damage? poison damage? depending on the skill we have all those choice.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by luedieniel View Post
    Nope,
    the full list is as follows:
    20 Summon Resist
    20 Summon Skeleton
    20 Skeleton Mastery
    10 Summon Magi
    5 Revive
    5 Clay golem(at 6 their slow starts scaling poorly)
    1 in bone shield and all curses aswell as requirements for revive and summon resists.

    Leaves 4 points to be used at either more slow for the clay golem, better revive or into bonewall for improved boneshield.
    As I'm playing hardcore and nothing but hardcore however I tend to have abit more health than others, thus I can take a hit just fine, bosses are cake, all you do is throw a clay golem right at them and renew it and they're so slow that they can't hit you at all.
    Im sorry but what? You always maxed out magi. Iv never put any skill points into PNB tree when using a skellymancer. If you get hit to the point where you need bone shield 9.98 times out of 10 your dead anyways.

    Max out
    Mastery
    Summon Skelly
    Summon Mage
    Summon resist - till it hits the point that it takes like 3 levels to gain 1%, was always my last so easy to see.
    Fire Golem
    get decrep and amp damage and 1 one point into revive and thats it. Any additional skills golem mastery or revive, doesnt matter.

    This build can solo ubers and any other part of the game with no problems. It relys on a Might merc with pride polearm. And no you dont use a beast axe either you use an Arm of leoric due to the massive amount of skill bonus's it gives. Forgot to mention you should never be getting hit as a skellymancer when fighting boss's due to have enigma. If you are you need to learn to play the class better.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Grassfarmer View Post
    Some moves were better than others however, so for example builds like hammerden and zeal pallys were the only viable options when creating a paladin in D2.
    Define "viable". Assuming viable means capable of soloing Hell difficulty, I have many pallys lvl 85+ in D2, and even though some of them were specifically built for PvP, ALL of them are fully capable of clearing Hell difficulty on their own.

    My list:
    Hammerdin(sigh, yeah)
    Smiter/Zealot
    V/t(smite/foh)
    Mage(hammers/foh)
    Dual Dream/Beast Holy Shock Auradin
    Dragon/Dragon/HoJ Holy Fire Auradin
    Dual Dream/Grief Auradin/Smiter
    Ranger(bow pally)
    Charger(2h weapon, no shield)
    Holy Frost Zealot
    Liberator(Charge/Hammers)
    Charger/FoH

    I can solo Hell in a full game with any of these characters. And I can also tear up people in PvP with several of them.

    That's 12 pallies...ALL of the hybrid builds(mage, liberator, V/T) have several skills that are higher than 1 and lower than 20. And don't even get me started on the pain that is a fire elemental druid(you'd need something like 180 skillpoints just to max their attacks+synergies, then adding in a spirit, wolves, etc...). Yes, the cookie cutter builds typically max skills relating to their main attack and then putting 1 in pre-reqs and 1 point wonders, but there's a lot of viable hybrid builds out there for those willing to look. The downside, most of them ARE very gear dependent...

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-06 at 08:43 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Zeta333 View Post
    Im sorry but what? You always maxed out magi. Iv never put any skill points into PNB tree when using a skellymancer. If you get hit to the point where you need bone shield 9.98 times out of 10 your dead anyways.

    Max out
    Mastery
    Summon Skelly
    Summon Mage
    Summon resist - till it hits the point that it takes like 3 levels to gain 1%, was always my last so easy to see.
    Fire Golem
    get decrep and amp damage and 1 one point into revive and thats it. Any additional skills golem mastery or revive, doesnt matter.

    This build can solo ubers and any other part of the game with no problems. It relys on a Might merc with pride polearm. And no you dont use a beast axe either you use an Arm of leoric due to the massive amount of skill bonus's it gives. Forgot to mention you should never be getting hit as a skellymancer when fighting boss's due to have enigma. If you are you need to learn to play the class better.
    Wow dude, talk about limiting yourself. My summoner has 1 in magi(this is certainly sufficient, 10 isn't needed and 20 certainly isn't needed), maxes poison nova and poison explosion, I too can solo any area in the game, and I'm a hell of a lot nastier in PvP. There isn't just "one" viable route. Also, the Fanatacism aura from Beast adds more damage than the skills from Leoric, and it makes your merc stronger too. Of course, mine uses HotO, as FCR=more effective teleport and faster nova spam, but if I wanted to boost my minions more, Beast>Leoric.

  17. #37
    If i'm understanding what's being said here correcly, it seems like it's a fix for one of the major restrictions of Diablo 2, you pretty much had to stock up on skills, not spending them, so you can pile them all on the same end-tree skills, cause using them sooner means gimping yourself later.

  18. #38
    Stormcall, we're discussing the skill system, not whether or not you could buy enough duped gear to make a bow paladin able to kill. What bow skills, exactly, were you using there with your bow paladin? How many active skills did you use on a given paladin? How much did you rely on crazy "rare" runewords on your merc? Would you seriously tell a new Diablo player to use most of those builds? How many of those builds were even normal mode viable, and how many did you need to rush through and powerlevel before they could do anything? I'm not trying to attack you, but the stuff you're talking about is sort of Diablo 2's problem more than anything else. You had to somewhat abuse game mechanics and have botted/duped gear to come up with these strange builds just to be different. In Diablo 3 the list of viable builds will be exponentially higher, and they'll all be based around active skills that you can modify with runes without needing the best gear.

  19. #39
    Wow dude, talk about limiting yourself. My summoner has 1 in magi(this is certainly sufficient, 10 isn't needed and 20 certainly isn't needed), maxes poison nova and poison explosion, I too can solo any area in the game, and I'm a hell of a lot nastier in PvP. There isn't just "one" viable route. Also, the Fanatacism aura from Beast adds more damage than the skills from Leoric, and it makes your merc stronger too. Of course, mine uses HotO, as FCR=more effective teleport and faster nova spam, but if I wanted to boost my minions more, Beast>Leoric.
    Go spreadsheet it as i did. Fanat gives such a small boost to party members its not worth the massive loss in skill. A +3 Summon ammy with fcr is all i needed. Haveing mages at 20 makes them wtf pwn any physical immunes and the psn nova and other psn skills do absolutely dick against ubers thanks to all thier resists. This was built for ubers pure and simple and in the process is able to take down any other boss in game.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Friendzie View Post
    Stormcall, we're discussing the skill system, not whether or not you could buy enough duped gear to make a bow paladin able to kill. What bow skills, exactly, were you using there with your bow paladin? How many active skills did you use on a given paladin? How much did you rely on crazy "rare" runewords on your merc? Would you seriously tell a new Diablo player to use most of those builds? How many of those builds were even normal mode viable, and how many did you need to rush through and powerlevel before they could do anything? I'm not trying to attack you, but the stuff you're talking about is sort of Diablo 2's problem more than anything else. You had to somewhat abuse game mechanics and have botted/duped gear to come up with these strange builds just to be different. In Diablo 3 the list of viable builds will be exponentially higher, and they'll all be based around active skills that you can modify with runes without needing the best gear.
    With my bow pally I was using Fanatacism and Holy Shock. I alternated those auras depending on the situation. I didn't rely on any rare runewords for my merc, he was using a Vamp Gaze, a Shaftstop, and an Insight(simply cause it was cheap and strong, not cause I needed the aura) for a long time. And a bow pally with Buriza is viable, you don't need top of the line runewords to be effective, though obviously the better your gear the stronger you'll be.

    As for how many of those builds are normal mode viable, umm, most of them? With the auradins, you just play as a generic zealot till you equip your aura gear. With the liberator and the mage, you just play as a hammerdin till you got what you need to effectively hybridize. Charger? You need a good weapon, but that holds true for basically all melee classes(zealot, wolf druid, barb).

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