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  1. #21
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Topp View Post
    This isnt WoW.
    There is no hybrid tax.
    Oh then where is the point in playing a sniper?
    Same DPS as Operative but no heals?
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Oh then where is the point in playing a sniper?
    Same DPS as Operative but no heals?
    Because you like the gameplay. What's the point of playing a warlock in WoW, a game where they have gone away from the hybrid tax as well?
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  3. #23
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    Because you like the gameplay. What's the point of playing a warlock in WoW, a game where they have gone away from the hybrid tax as well?
    I like the gameplay but i dont like that im not versatile.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    I like the gameplay but i dont like that im not versatile.
    *shrug* What can you do, it is as it is. Snipers/Gunslingers and Sentinels/Marauders are just like that, in the same way Warlocks/Mages/Rogues/Hunters are.
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  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Oh then where is the point in playing a sniper?
    Same DPS as Operative but no heals?
    Just get out of here. Keep that garbage on the wow forums. You know the hybrid tax is a disaster and serves no purpose, stop trolling.



    That said I believe my deception assassin does quite a bit of damage, I've even been in groups and had people ask "Did you just crit for a shit ton?" after getting a maul crit for over 1k at level 20. I tried to do a Juggernaut sith but it simply is too weak (in my own view) and I just lost interest at level 18.

  6. #26
    I'd go with Sorc, as their resource is absolutely endless.

    you regen more while casting force lightning, and your lightning strike give you +20% regen that stacks 3 times.

  7. #27
    Brewmaster Shon237's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    It has to be the classes that are DPS only and not hybrids.
    Sniper or gunslinger for example.
    SInce they cant heal or take loads of damage, they should compensate with loads of DPS.
    I know this is Star Wars but sounds like what WoW used to be. I hope they actually keep it this way. Again toooooooooooo early to call "best" dps yet but I hope pure dps keep that. I have Inquistor to 14 atm. Not really impressed. I still will probably role a hybrid either stay Inquisitor/melee or go warriot/tank. Again still too early.

  8. #28
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeones View Post
    Just get out of here. Keep that garbage on the wow forums. You know the hybrid tax is a disaster and serves no purpose, stop trolling.


    Please explain to me why it is a disaster?
    Oh and please learn the definition of trolling. For me, please.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Please explain to me why it is a disaster?
    Oh and please learn the definition of trolling. For me, please.
    It's a "disaster" because it makes all other specs unviable, since the "pure DPS" classes aren't penalized for being hybrids while the others are. There would be no point to bring a "hybrid" dps to any raid, because a Sniper/Marauder would do better by default. And that is bad design.
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  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Kazomir View Post
    Please explain to me why it is a disaster?
    Oh and please learn the definition of trolling. For me, please.
    It's bad because it gives an advantage to a group of classes, rather than acting as a balance, and like I said before this is especially true when you don't have dual specs. If looking to form a raid and you need 1 DPS you would generally consider a Hybrid DPS and a pure DPS equally, basing the decision on other things like gear, attitude, experience etc. However if we know that the pure DPS is meant to do more damage, then unless there's a large difference in gear most raid leaders is going to go with the pure DPS.

    At the end of the day the main consideration when bringing people to the raid is a) how good are they at their main task (i.e. who's going to bring the most damage) and b) what unique buffs/raid utility do they bring.
    "Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence...When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C. S. Lewis

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    That can't be done when PvE is competitive.
    Wrong. There are tons of mechanics where the over-all-meter is quite useless .. burstclasses may be needed .. classes with high survivalbility .. classes that may throw in a heal in high-dmg-phase.. classes with high AE .. - Inmany cases you can't read things like this from the DMG-meters, so yes: Stop caring about the meters and start playing the class you enjoy most, if you trust in BW (and you should, if you start playing the game) you should also think about the point, that they will prolly buff classes which are to weak (for the given encounters, not DPSwise) or nerf the overpowered ones ..
    Not a native speaker. - Let's try german if you like to complain about spelling.

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  12. #32
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    It's a "disaster" because it makes all other specs unviable, since the "pure DPS" classes aren't penalized for being hybrids while the others are. There would be no point to bring a "hybrid" dps to any raid, because a Sniper/Marauder would do better by default. And that is bad design.
    A bad design is when you have a raid that consists of the following "shape"
    Tank
    Healer
    Healer
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS

    When in a good design you can take whatever you want, you could mix, you could take hibrids aswell (early level flashpoint-like?)
    You can experiment and stuff.
    Something like this:
    Tank
    Healer/DPS hybrid (for healing the DPS when they get in trouble)
    Healer/DPS hybrid
    Healer/DPS hybrid
    Healer (for healing the tank?)
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    It's a "disaster" because it makes all other specs unviable, since the "pure DPS" classes aren't penalized for being hybrids while the others are. There would be no point to bring a "hybrid" dps to any raid, because a Sniper/Marauder would do better by default. And that is bad design.
    Wrong again. - How you know that there will no hybrids be needed? Hybrid may not only mean "lower DPS" it may also mean "the sniper needs the guard of an assassin to not pull aggro" .. or "in phase XY you need to survive big dmg .. heal yourself or use tank-CDs" ..
    Not a native speaker. - Let's try german if you like to complain about spelling.

    Every game ever invented by mankind, is a way of making things hard for the fun of it!
    John Ciardi

  14. #34
    First Overall Damage does not ALWAYS equal best dps...

    But so far this isn't really a way to measure your dps.

    What I can tell you is that in Warzones, without fail top damage is bounty hunters, followed by snipers.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Oex View Post
    Wrong again. - How you know that there will no hybrids be needed? Hybrid may not only mean "lower DPS" it may also mean "the sniper needs the guard of an assassin to not pull aggro" .. or "in phase XY you need to survive big dmg .. heal yourself or use tank-CDs" ..
    I'm going to use WoW again because currently I'm not familiar enough with all of SWTOR's classes and skills, but pure DPS have some of the best damage reduction cooldowns around. I mean Cloak of Shadows literally invalidates so many boss spells, then they can reduce AOE damage by 50% on a 10s cd, not to mention evasion, compare that to say a frost DK who only gets a 20% damage reduction and AMS. I would say often it's specifically because they're not sharing specs with a tank that pure and healer hybrids can get away with some amazingly good cooldowns since the bosses aren't really balanced around their damage mitigation in the same way tanks are.

    Equally your other example is just one of 'utility' and this does not fall down the divide of Pure/Hybrid but instead varies from class to class. I.E. mages, especially for smaller raid sizes, bring great utility in blood lust and arcane intellect, can dispel curses and spellsteal magic and have a great kiting spec, these are all pretty rare things that I'm much more likely to need than what a fury warrior brings. If you're saying higher utility should perhaps do less damage than lower utility then I would generally agree, but that does not just fall as a line between pure and hybrids, and is an awfully tricky thing to quantify.
    "Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence...When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C. S. Lewis

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Oex View Post
    Wrong. There are tons of mechanics where the over-all-meter is quite useless .. burstclasses may be needed .. classes with high survivalbility .. classes that may throw in a heal in high-dmg-phase.. classes with high AE .. - Inmany cases you can't read things like this from the DMG-meters, so yes: Stop caring about the meters and start playing the class you enjoy most, if you trust in BW (and you should, if you start playing the game) you should also think about the point, that they will prolly buff classes which are to weak (for the given encounters, not DPSwise) or nerf the overpowered ones ..
    It doesn't matter how much you want to trust Bioware, because they're not the ones who are playing the 7/15 other people in the raid that you're leading. You can't trust that all those 7/15 other people are playing perfectly and that none of them are slacking to a high degree. If you're failing at a boss, especially to enrage timers or not enough DPS, then how else are you going to improve your group if you cannot see who your weak link is?

    A bad design is when you have a raid that consists of the following "shape"
    Tank
    Healer
    Healer
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS

    When in a good design you can take whatever you want, you could mix, you could take hibrids aswell (early level flashpoint-like?)
    You can experiment and stuff.
    Something like this:
    Tank
    Healer/DPS hybrid (for healing the DPS when they get in trouble)
    Healer/DPS hybrid
    Healer/DPS hybrid
    Healer (for healing the tank?)
    DPS
    DPS
    DPS
    The thing about hybrids, is that they really aren't that good at either role. It's like this in WoW, just like it is in SW:TOR. As a Ret Paladin, you can heal yourself to full, but it takes a while, just as how a Gunnery Commando can heal himself to full, but it takes a while. They no way have the capabilities of a pure healer.

    So when you have a hybrid tax on hybrid dps, and you justify their usage in raids by saying "they can heal themselves," it doesn't really work. Hybrid dps/healers are never really good at healing themselves, and if they have a tax on their dps, they are just really a detriment to the raid.

    If we use your second setup, with 3 hybrids, 1 healer, and 3 dps, wouldn't it be genuinely a stronger setup if you used 5 dps and 2 healers? You don't have to mess around with petty hybrid healing trying to survive, because you'd have another full time healer, and those hybrids that were wasting precious raid spots are now replaced by full-time BETTER pure-dps classes.

    Wrong again. - How you know that there will no hybrids be needed? Hybrid may not only mean "lower DPS" it may also mean "the sniper needs the guard of an assassin to not pull aggro" .. or "in phase XY you need to survive big dmg .. heal yourself or use tank-CDs" ..
    Because it'd be better off bringing a full time healer instead of wasting a raid spot on a half dps half healer.
    Last edited by vizzle; 2011-12-23 at 04:41 PM.
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  17. #37
    Bioware has stated a few times in the past couple months that there will be a slight tax on "hybrid" classes. They used the example of a Jedi Sentinel doing about 5% more damage than a Jedi Guardian because of the heavy armor allowing more damage reduction (which is key in a lot of fights). But they have also stated that they expect every class to be within ~5% dps of whatever turns out to be tops at end game with BiS gear and will try and tune accordingly to keep it that way.

    As it stands for the OP's question. I got a Tactics Trooper up to 25 and switched because I wasn't enjoying the play style of that AC, because it felt really slow and LOOKED under powered despite doing excellent damage. So I switched to a Jedi Sentinel which I am currently loving. Unfortunately a lot of people are saying how hard it is to solo due to low damage, but I think they are doing something wrong as I tend to kill stuff faster than my trooper did and with greater ease.

    One final thing to note though is if you are really on the fence and looking for the absolute best DPS class I would wait another week (closer to the new year) once most of the hardcore min/max players will have gotten to lvl 50 and started gearing themselves a bit, because currently most people (myself included) are basing comments and thoughts on this off of toons that haven't hit max and gotten the minimum appropriate gear (every slot filled with Lvl 50 required gear)

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord Kazomir's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vizzle View Post
    It doesn't matter how much you want to trust Bioware, because they're not the ones who are playing the 7/15 other people in the raid that you're leading. You can't trust that all those 7/15 other people are playing perfectly and that none of them are slacking to a high degree. If you're failing at a boss, especially to enrage timers or not enough DPS, then how else are you going to improve your group if you cannot see who your weak link is?



    The thing about hybrids, is that they really aren't that good at either role. It's like this in WoW, just like it is in SW:TOR. As a Ret Paladin, you can heal yourself to full, but it takes a while, just as how a Gunnery Commando can heal himself to full, but it takes a while. They no way have the capabilities of a pure healer.

    So when you have a hybrid tax on hybrid dps, and you justify their usage in raids by saying "they can heal themselves," it doesn't really work. Hybrid dps/healers are never really good at healing themselves, and if they have a tax on their dps, they are just really a detriment to the raid.

    If we use your second setup, with 3 hybrids, 1 healer, and 3 dps, wouldn't it be genuinely a stronger setup if you used 5 dps and 2 healers? You don't have to mess around with petty hybrid healing trying to survive, because you'd have another full time healer, and those hybrids that were wasting precious raid spots are now replaced by full-time BETTER pure-dps classes.



    Because it'd be better off bringing a full time healer instead of wasting a raid spot on a half dps half healer.
    The fact that the full DPS in the second composition deal MORE damage than the DPS in the first (because there IS a hybrid tax for the second one and there is none for the first one) is evading you.

    Also the fact that the hybrids in the second composition can heal the pure DPS AND the healer when needed while the full-on healer heals only the tank. They can also deal damage, yes, it wont be better than the damage the pure DPS give, but it will be damage, basically they are dealing damage and in case of emergency they switch to heal their mates.
    Last edited by Kazomir; 2011-12-23 at 05:23 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by biolink22 View Post
    rogue "glory hole helm"

  19. #39
    There is no dual spec option in this game and no tree is really dedicated to being both a tank and a DPS or both a healer and a DPS.
    Just treat your spec as your class, no need for hybrid tax.

  20. #40
    MAGE.... oops wrong game errmmm does it matter it will change anyway and there is no damage meter.. So hit 1 button and AFK the rest of the fight know one will know anyway. This game is grate to suck at and look good grate for being boosted i'm loving it.

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