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  1. #1

    Heroic Butcher cleave stack problem

    I must be drunk in my face, like seriously.

    This is how it goes, usually:

    2 stack switch until 30%, all fine and dandy. I take the first stack(s) during frenzy, he knocks us back, we clear our stacks, I start again. 3 stacks, out, in with the other fella. He gets 3 stacks, moves out, I move in, we get 4 stacks and I just killed half the dps team, most likely. He still dies, because he's nearly dead by the time 7/8th cleave after frenzy comes.

    Wat do?!

    I keep reading/seeing people managing 3 stacks just perfectly, but when I do it, he just laughs in my face and does his cleave right before my stack fall off.

    Did they increase the rate of cleave to force people to do 4 stacks, or what the hell is happening?

  2. #2
    I just did H Butcher 2 hours ago. We had no problems with 3 stacks in Frenzy. I just jump out when he is about to cast the cleave, I get the stack whiel jumping and he moves in. I go in again when I have 1 second left and it works perfectly

  3. #3
    Sounds like you're lacking heals. The cleaves come out faster during frenzy, so naturally youre going to have to take more before your buddy's stacks fall off (And vice versa), and damage is just naturally very high during frenzy, so I'd take a look at your healer's logs and try to save major CDs (Wings/Tranq/Hymm), until you're deep into frenzy.

  4. #4
    I think you misunderstood my post. :P There's nothing wrong with the healing, dps or tanking at all. Butcher still dies, that's no problem, but the problem is me trying to get rid of the 3rd stack, but Butcherman don't want nothin' of that!
    He just slices my face with a 4th stack instead of following the mathematical rules that says he should not be able to refresh the stack when the other team has 3 stacks, and I move move in.
    (My stacks should drop when he starts casting cleave, but instead of that, I still got 0.1, 0.2 seconds left on my debuff, thus causing my team to get butchered)
    We're a small raid team, 12-13 people, so a 4th stack is death itself.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Draq View Post
    I think you misunderstood my post. :P There's nothing wrong with the healing, dps or tanking at all. Butcher still dies, that's no problem, but the problem is me trying to get rid of the 3rd stack, but Butcherman don't want nothin' of that!
    He just slices my face with a 4th stack instead of following the mathematical rules that says he should not be able to refresh the stack when the other team has 3 stacks, and I move move in.
    (My stacks should drop when he starts casting cleave, but instead of that, I still got 0.1, 0.2 seconds left on my debuff, thus causing my team to get butchered)
    We're a small raid team, 12-13 people, so a 4th stack is death itself.
    i don't remember how it is in heroic but in mythic he only cleaves 6 times between a knockback.

  6. #6
    Possible you got clipped by the cleave he does on the range group after he charges out? I believe it refreshes and adds another stack although i could be wrong on that.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by QuadJunky View Post
    Possible you got clipped by the cleave he does on the range group after he charges out? I believe it refreshes and adds another stack although i could be wrong on that.
    Seems like it. I don't see any other way to get 4th stack after that group waited for 3rd stack on 2nd group because in enrage there's enough time to lose those stacks if you do 3-3 rotation.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ohai View Post
    i don't remember how it is in heroic but in mythic he only cleaves 6 times between a knockback.
    Cleaves are the same regardless of difficulty, the only time he does 6 cleaves in between boundings are when he's enraged.

    Throughout the whole fight, you should be doing 2 stacks. 2 on you, 2 on other group, 2 on you, 2 on other group, repeat. As soon as he enrages, whatever group is in at the moment finishes off with 3, then continue doing 3. The group that did NOT get the last cleave before the first enraged bounding, should go in, and then it's 3, 3, 3 until dead.

    This is on all difficulties. Can do 3/3/3/3/3/3/3/3 for all of them if your raid is up for it though, just remember when he's enraged, if you took a cleave right before bounding, you likely can't go back in or you'll start at two when he does the first one. This isn't always the case but it tends to be most of the time, so just play it safe.

    Here's a simple weak auras that will help you track stacks that I made, will announce in /say when you have 2 and 3 stacks, and when your focus has 2 and 3 stacks and show you an icon with each.


    Code:
    dq0wAaqiHsSiqzuIOoLiXSiLULqjTlb1WekoMkyzKcpdbX0ePQ4AKISnrQQmorQkDorQQ6DIqUNivoOiLfIu6HQinrHsDreuTrI0hfbnsrGtksALcmtsrDtvi7eP6NifdfbLLksvEkQPQORQc1xfH6SIiMlr0EL(RqgmHddzXcYJvPjJKlt1MjvFMOgncDAOEncmBeDBq2TQ(njdhuTCr9CGPt56kSDeK(ory8QOoVq16vrmFrK2Vs3dDwg1zTYGYAeoMWP)HtFldvMQmvNLboPoHPWVvMwAMtAosZeU0z5SlJv)moCVSCwnGx(hqZmww2ZGs)qzmvzAvJNc)YR4ushrOEzsfIQZYdGhDjraqdvoRi9oldninCN1Qv2qK(BDwgAqA4oRvRCgD9oldninCN1QvRSFgo6PCQgQw5BNL(HolFhatbn9Zwz9XFnS6tos7kI0UISdHWp(LNyix7kI0UIiTRis7kag6saiLnyfRyfRGuDrKRqcu(N(z7q6GjfFgzovSi5l5dlrBWkwXkwr2Tr(xHeO8p9Z2Hveo8kGL0RUUuPsLkvkSWHxHPawg)Yjdm0LaqkRiC4vadK0SKpSeTb(tvEa8PsrAy4nuz0JHqgw9Dwwh)yaXoldp7a3kRJO8YwC4Ez4zh4wTALTmww2ZDw(rqoOZs)q5eoaeXV8ksSA8uGALha)u14TsB5RA8w5dLVdGPGIiIP8YggYPkt5Hg66Z4W9YjiT07iPhR5AL1vVvoTmgrUc6OCwjrzIowMOv6AkMYKkevNLhap6Dc1Znu5tuVxobyzIqObz5bWJEeK3qLZOR3zzObPH7SwTYzfP3zzObPH7SwTYdGhDvqHqwPT8a4rNOEV0wEa8ikSUo(oiT4nuzdr6V1zzObPH7SwTAL1vVX4t8sxdnkNDzS6NXH7LXx1xgyOlbGtvVHWpK)wzAoEYPgBcVmAyQgQm6Ay1d6SmWqzRZYqoaGK9YASc2qxcaRq9R4iV8Damfu5nGuDrKR4rq(ks3ko(XgDeKNmm4KO4EgwkBWgKDBK)nydy)PoLiYoYbaKSN8JG8veo8kGTcP4ZiZPGPDfW40scmTR4XKAxXJG8u2Gnyd2Gnyd2Gnyd2GYqoaGK9iloCVmNwsktPIGCaaj7nuzkv0DamfudvRwzmv5eoaeXV8ksSA8uGvCyfSHUeugrrHnS6rKrwgll7zqN1klbMYiw6AkMYNPrxh4wPhRh0iMY)aAMXYYEgu6hkhNgDDGBLoHetzkmaojkEQx1xo138So66sM6v9ajz4ojzeterPKisZyDp2ze(ldm0LaaHPWVvMwAMtAoQwPRrNLVdGPGM(zRS(4Vgw9jhPDfrAxr2Hq4h)YtmKRDfrAxrK2vePDfadDjaKYgSIvSIvqQUiYvibk)t)SDiDWKIpJmNkwK8L8HLOnyfRyfRi72i)Rqcu(N(z7WkchEfWs6vxxQuPsLkfw4WRWualJF5Kbg6saiLveo8kGbsAwYhwI2a)Pkpa(uPinm8gQSLXYYEUZYpcYbDw6hkNWbGi(LxrIvJNcuR8a4NQgVvAlt5Hg66Z4W9YjiT07iPhR5Yx14TYAu(oaMckIiMYlByiNQwzD1BLtlJrKRGokNvsuMOJLjALUMIPmPcr1z5bWJENq9Cdv2qK(BDwgAqA4oRvR8jQ3lNaSmri0GS8a4rpcYBOYzfP3zzObPH7SwTYdGhrH11X3bPfVHkpaE0jQ3lTLhap6QGcHSsB5m66DwgAqA4oRvRwzD1Bm(eV01qJYzxgR(zC4Ez8v9Lrpgczy13zzD8Jbe7Sm8SdCRSoIYlBXH7LHNDGB1QvgyOlbGtvVHWpK)wzAoEYPgBcVmAyQgQm6Ay1d6SmWqzRZYqoaGK9YASc2qxcaRq9R4iV8Damfu5nGuDrKR4rq(ks3ko(XgDeKNmm4KO4EgwkBWgKDBK)nydy)PoLiYoYbaKSN8JG8veo8kGTcP4ZiZPGPDfW40scmTR4XKAxXJG8u2Gnyd2Gnyd2Gnyd2GYqoaGK9iloCVmNwsktPIGCaaj7L2YuQO7aykOgQwTYyQYjCaiIF5vKy14PaRqJvWg6saO8zA01bUv6X6bnIPSeykJyPRPyk)dOzgll7zqPFOCCA01bUv6esmLruuydREezKLXYYEg0zTYuyaCsu8uVQVCQV5zD01Lm1R6bsYWDsYiMiIsjrKMX6ESZi8xgyOlbactHFRmT0mN0CuTsNq6S8Damf00pBL1h)1WQp5iTRis7kYoec)4xEIHCTRis7kI0UIiTRayOlbGu2GvSIvScs1frUcjq5F6NTdPdMu8zK5uXIKVKpSeTbRyfRyfz3g5FfsGY)0pBhwr4WRawsV66sLkvQuPWchEfMcyz8lNmWqxcaPSIWHxbmqsZs(Ws0g4pv5bWNkfPHH3qLrpgczy13zzD8Jbe7Sm8SdCRSoIYlBXH7LHNDGB1Qv2Yyzzp3z5hb5Gol9dLt4aqe)YRiXQXtbQvEa8tvJ3kTLVQXBLjKY3bWuqreXuEzdd5uLP8qdD9zC4E5eKw6DK0J1CTY6Q3kNwgJixbDuoRKOmrhlt0kDnftzsfIQZYdGh9oH65gQ8jQ3lNaSmri0GS8a4rpcYBOYz017Sm0G0WDwRw5SI07Sm0G0WDwRw5bWJUkOqiR0wEa8OtuVxAlpaEefwxhFhKw8gQSHi936Sm0G0WDwRwTY6Q3y8jEPRHgLZUmw9Z4W9Y4R6ldm0LaWPQ3q4hYFRmnhp5uJnHxgnmvdvgDnS6bDwgyOS1zzihaqYEzczfSHUeawH6xXrE57aykOYBaP6IixXJG8vKUvC8Jn6iipzyWjrX9mSu2Gni72i)BWgW(tDkrKDKdaizp5hb5RiC4vaBfsXNrMtbt7kGXPLeyAxXJj1UIhb5PSbBWgSbBWgSbBWgSbLHCaaj7rwC4EzoTKuMsfb5aas2lTLPur3bWuqnuTALXuLt4aqe)YRiXQXtbwbHSc2qxcaLruuydREezKLXYYEg0zTYsGPmILUMIP8zA01bUv6X6bnIP8pGMzSSSNbL(HYXPrxh4wPtiXuMcdGtIIN6v9Lt9npRJUUKPEvpqsgUtsgXerukjI0mw3JDgH)YadDjaqyk8BLPLM5KMJQv6PpDw(oaMcA6NTY6J)Ay1NCK2vePDfzhcHF8lpXqU2vePDfrAxrK2vam0LaqkBWkwXkwbP6IixHeO8p9Z2H0btk(mYCQyrYxYhwI2GvSIvSISBJ8Vcjq5F6NTdRiC4valPxDDPsLkvQuyHdVctbSm(LtgyOlbGuwr4WRagiPzjFyjAd8NQm6Ay1d6SmWqzRZYqoaGK9YASc2qxcaRq9Rqze98kKZQb8Y3bWuqL3as1frUIhb5RiDR44hB0rqEYWGtII7zyPSbBq2Tr(3GnG9N6uIi7ihaqYEYpcYxr4WRa2kKIpJmNcM2vaJtljW0UIhtQDfpcYtzd2Gnyd2Gnyd2Gnydkd5aas2JS4W9YCAjPmLkcYbaKS3qLPur3bWuqnuTALhaFQuKggEdvg9yiKHvFNL1XpgqSZYWZoWTY6ikVSfhUxgE2bUvRwzlJLL9CNLFeKd6S0puoHdar8lVIeRgpfOwzkp0qxFghUxobPLEhj9ynxEa8tvJ3kTLVQXBLpuga3VyD894hBLL6z0jLhp2kRRUdq57aykOiIykVSHHCQAL1vVvoTmgrUc6OCwjrzIowMOv6AkMYKkevNLhap6Dc1Znuzdr6V1zzObPH7SwTYdGh9iiVHkNrxVZYqdsd3zTALpr9E5eGLjcHgKLhapIcRRJVdslEdvEa8OtuVxAlpaE0vbfczL2YzfP3zzObPH7SwTAL1vVX4t8sxdnkNDzS6NXH7LXx1xgyOlbGtvVHWpK)wzAoEYPgBcVmAyQgQmIIcBy1JiJSmww2ZGoRvgtvoHdar8lVIeRgpfyftuw2TvCyfSHUeu(mn66a3k9y9GgXuwcmLrS01umL)b0mJLL9mO0puoon66a3k9dhIPmfgaNefp1R6lN6BEwhDDjt9QEGKmCNKmIjIOusePzSUh7mc)Lbg6saGWu43ktlnZjnhvR01uNLVdGPGM(zRS(4Vgw9jhPDfrAxr2Hq4h)YtmKRDfrAxrK2vePDfadDjaKYgSIvSIvqQUiYvibk)t)SDiDWKIpJmNkwK8L8HLOnyfRyfRi72i)Rqcu(N(z7WkchEfWs6vxxQuPsLkfw4WRWualJF5Kbg6saiLveo8kGbsAwYhwI2a)Pkpa(uPinm8gQm6XqidR(olRJFmGyNLHNDGBL1ruEzloCVm8SdCRwTYwgll75ol)iih0zPFOCchaI4xEfjwnEkqTY3bWuqreXuEzdd5uLha)u14TsB5RA8wznkdG7xSo(E8JTYs9m6KYJhBL1v3bOmLhAORpJd3lNG0sVJKESMRvwx9w50Yye5kOJYzLeLj6yzIwPRPyktQquDwEa8O3jup3qLpr9E5eGLjcHgKLhap6rqEdvoJUENLHgKgUZA1kNvKENLHgKgUZA1kpaE0vbfczL2YdGhDI69sB5bWJOW6647G0I3qLneP)wNLHgKgUZA1Qvwx9gJpXlDn0OC2LXQFghUxgFvFzGHUeaov9gc)q(BLP54jNASj8YOHPAOYORHvpOZYadLTold5aas2lRXkydDjaSc1VcLr0ZRqoRgWlFhatbvEdivxe5kEeKVI0TIJFSrhb5jddojkUNHLYgSbz3g5Fd2a2FQtjISJCaaj7j)iiFfHdVcyRqk(mYCkyAxbmoTKat7kEmP2v8iipLnyd2Gnyd2Gnyd2GnOmKdaizpYId3lZPLKYuQiihaqYEPTmLk6oaMcQHQvRmMQCchaI4xEfjwnEkWkMOSSBRqJvWg6saOmIIcBy1JiJSmww2ZGoRvwcmLrS01umLptJUoWTspwpOrmL)b0mJLL9mO0puoon66a3k9dhIPmfgaNefp1R6lN6BEwhDDjt9QEGKmCNKmIjIOusePzSUh7mc)Lbg6saGWu43ktlnZ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    Last edited by Drahzere; 2015-01-19 at 06:16 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Draq View Post
    Did they increase the rate of cleave to force people to do 4 stacks, or what the hell is happening?
    For the enrage, don't switch "on 3 stacks" switch "when the stacks had fallen off" of you (provided you don't get any from Bounded cleave). If it means that the other group gets 4 stacks (because you're slow on transitioning) it's still better than your group being wiped off (because you went in too soon).

  10. #10
    Hmm... We generally do 3 stacks a side, then 4 during enrage - your issue may be a positional one. We have our tanks opposite to where the ranged stack with a melee group either side to the boss and the hunters diagonally out from their respective stack group - if you drew it on paper it would look a bit like a crucifix - we (Hunters) never get hit by bounding and only get the set stacks before getting out...
    Maybe you need to reposition your self (or everyone)...

  11. #11
    I have no idea what you're doing wrong. I've always been going with 3 stacks for whole fight and we had no problems with them even though second hunter is kinda nooby and I had to tell her when to get in/out all the time:P

    Maybe your problem is that after knockback your group goes to healers/ranged spot to soak the damage? It's baaad idea. Switching seems like the easiest part of the fight, although a video/more detailed description would be of help.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by osa View Post
    Seems like it. I don't see any other way to get 4th stack after that group waited for 3rd stack on 2nd group because in enrage there's enough time to lose those stacks if you do 3-3 rotation.
    In recent normal pug on an alt I saw healers not being stacked, so after knockback hunter and someone else landed next to each other and got charged at. I'd guess that's the problem here

  12. #12
    I have the strong feeling that the number of cleaves scales with the size of the raid. With 30 people we regularly had 1 additional stack which irritated us alot.
    Perhaps this is the way to make the mechanic more manageable for very small raids where it is not easy to build 2 soaking groups plus the range-soakers for the charge.

  13. #13
    Going to 4 stacks of cleave is never a good idea. Especially on Mythic. I'm not sure why you guys are suggesting this at all. If you want to do 3 stacks throughout the fight go for it but you should never do 4. As I mentioned before you can easily do 2 before enrage though.

    My above post on how to handle stacks works with any group size without fail, I've done it in 20 man, 30 man and less than 20.
    Last edited by Drahzere; 2015-01-19 at 01:53 PM.

  14. #14
    Mechagnome Littlepinch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Draq View Post
    I think you misunderstood my post. :P There's nothing wrong with the healing, dps or tanking at all. Butcher still dies, that's no problem, but the problem is me trying to get rid of the 3rd stack, but Butcherman don't want nothin' of that!
    He just slices my face with a 4th stack instead of following the mathematical rules that says he should not be able to refresh the stack when the other team has 3 stacks, and I move move in.
    (My stacks should drop when he starts casting cleave, but instead of that, I still got 0.1, 0.2 seconds left on my debuff, thus causing my team to get butchered)
    We're a small raid team, 12-13 people, so a 4th stack is death itself.
    The stacks come out quicker, meaning you have to react quicker then before frenzy. The second you get that 3rd stack you must already be moving away to force the next stack to go to the other group as stacker #2 moves in.

    also i call out for personal cd's from my stackers on the 3rd stacks. IE Smoke bomb from my rogue.

    It's really all about being quick on your toes and moving the instant you get the stack.
    Hope this helps Cheers

  15. #15
    Pandaren Monk chaosjones's Avatar
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    we fucked a bit up with the stacking in the end but this is how we do it

    https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports...=6&view=replay

    Active Wow Player | Inactive D3 Player | Inactive Eve Player | Inactive Wot Player | Scrub Openraid Raid Leader| Eve Gametime | Youtube / Twitter

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans Christan's Avatar
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    move ranged group a tiny bit further away so his run time back is .2 seconds longer? stacks may fall...other peoples idea's about getting knocked into ranged group for bounding sound legit also, except it's his whole group being wiped out, if ranged are to close he boudns runs back and starts stacks that much quicker.... (im really not to sure lol...but it's an idea)
    Still I cry, tears like pouring rain, Innocent is my lurid pain.

  17. #17
    Epic! Zaxio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor2718 View Post
    I have the strong feeling that the number of cleaves scales with the size of the raid. With 30 people we regularly had 1 additional stack which irritated us alot.
    Perhaps this is the way to make the mechanic more manageable for very small raids where it is not easy to build 2 soaking groups plus the range-soakers for the charge.
    I never have problem with 3/3 in soft enrage no mater of the group size.Problem can comes if some from the other group isnt on correct place atleast for me

  18. #18
    Mechagnome
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    If you get 4 stacks is because some1 messed up. There's always time to drop the debuff when doing 3 stacks

  19. #19
    Hm maybe increase the distance of the ranged camp

  20. #20
    If done correctly, your stacks will always drop in time and vice/versa. It's a positioning problem, pretty much any way you.. slice it.

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