Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    Brewmaster Newbryn's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2011
    Location
    Leaving
    Posts
    1,333
    I use to like leveling in single player rpgs but after playing wow it really made me hate leveling, Id rather a system where you allocate points into stats and abilities slightly similar to final fantasy xiii,its still a form of leveling but its one I can embrace easily.
    Claymore is Epic again, eat it priscilla fanboys.

  2. #22
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Leveling doesn't really work in video games. The concept belonged to another form of media.
    I'm not sure I agree. Leveling paces the experience for the player and can work as a tutorial. It can control the flow of incoming information.
    Retired Holy Priest
    As a rule, I try to act on the internet as I would in real life. If I have offended you, feel free to point it out. Unless I meant to offend you, I will probably apologize.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Pridefox View Post
    I'm actually not sure that I like pvp having no levels. Instead of picking a character, leveling it up, and investing time in it it seems in pvp people can just swap Over to the "flavor of the month " or character that the community declares op at the time.
    We can't really say that without testing, you are forgetting all classes have been extensively tested in PvP and other environments for years. They have been doing balancing and other junk. Mesmer took so long to release was because it felt weaker to everything else.

    I can assure you there won't be a flavor of the month. If there is, down it will go.
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Questar View Post
    for the people who like levels:
    how much level is too much? as expansions increase and level caps increase, it becomes a drag for new players to come in and level from 1 to say, 100 levels. what started out as a tool to measure advancement becomes a hindrance that a new player has to overcome. is there a better way to balance the need for increase in power for the existing player and the barrier of high level cap for a new player?
    that's a wrong way to look at leveling imo
    most devs don't look at "oh how many levels do we need" they look at "oh how much time should the player do leveling" and design it around the time they agree on
    with expansion packs they usually redo the early levels a bit, add more quest, increase the quest xp you get etc, so the time stays roughly the same, although they can also change the time required if they see people are going too fast or too slow, so in the end the number of levels doesn't matter all that much

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    I'm not sure I agree. Leveling paces the experience for the player and can work as a tutorial. It can control the flow of incoming information.
    Only as a device. Pacing and information reveals can be handled without levels. I.E. Half-Life.

    The problem with leveling in MMOs is there is often no way to skip this tutorial of sorts. So an experience player who knows exactly how to build a Marksman/Sabo/Riftstalker is stymied by having to kill 10 rats for /played X till they can get Time Bomb, Rift Guard, et cetera.

    It's an artifice that is almost totally unnecessary in MMOs.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    It's an artifice that is almost totally unnecessary in MMOs.
    Sorta.

    When leveling in MMO's actually means something, i.e. it actually TEACHES you how to play your class and many common mechanics in the game to that you are a competent player at level cap, it is working as intended and fine. The problem is that most games don't do that and you get a leveling process that is nothing more than a gating mechanic to prevent players for instantly hitting max level.

    As a tutorial, it should that purpose of teaching players, but it doesn't. I'd much rather a game focused on end-game content (a la Rift, WoW ect.) just give you max level characters or make the leveling process extremely fast, but create a tutorial system (leveling or some other system) that actually TEACHES players so that when they begin to group with others, they know what they are doing. Sorry, I'm just bitter because the last 4 instances I did in WoW were filled with people who were completely clueless about instance/fight mechanics, and completely clueless about how to play/gear their class. This is because WoW, despite doing as much as possible to limit your options in how to fail, doesn't actually do much teaching, and it's a problem in most MMO's : /

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    When leveling in MMO's actually means something, i.e. it actually TEACHES you how to play your class and many common mechanics in the game to that you are a competent player at level cap, it is working as intended and fine. The problem is that most games don't do that and you get a leveling process that is nothing more than a gating mechanic to prevent players for instantly hitting max level.
    Yea, but this is exactly as I described it; a device.

    Leveling has never worked in games as a means of teaching. Or the very least, has never been shown in practice to work better than means used by Half-Life, Megaman, Zelda- blahblah.

    There is just no function to leveling in an MMO other than to extent /played.

    As a tutorial, it should that purpose of teaching players, but it doesn't. I'd much rather a game focused on end-game content (a la Rift, WoW ect.) just give you max level characters or make the leveling process extremely fast, but create a tutorial system (leveling or some other system) that actually TEACHES players so that when they begin to group with others, they know what they are doing.
    Well, yea. On paper it seems rather a nice idea. The flaw of this system in games like Rift/WOW/EQ is skills are doled out based on those level gains. So we as players don't ever really have all the tools at our ultimate disposal sub-cap. Which isn't a bad thing, per se. Somewhat cynically, we know that the tanking experience (example) of level 31 is quite different than level 85. With little in-between that can reasonably be taught to players.

    It doesn't work as a teaching tool.

    I would personally like to just be done with artificial ceiling and allow players to decide what they are ready for/capable of through... play. GW2 seeks this as a goal in design, which is quite nice to me.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2011-12-27 at 06:26 AM.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    that's a wrong way to look at leveling imo
    most devs don't look at "oh how many levels do we need" they look at "oh how much time should the player do leveling" and design it around the time they agree on
    with expansion packs they usually redo the early levels a bit, add more quest, increase the quest xp you get etc, so the time stays roughly the same, although they can also change the time required if they see people are going too fast or too slow, so in the end the number of levels doesn't matter all that much
    i think there is something wrong if they needed to introduce additional levels, and go back and alter things so that the number of previous levels do not matter after all! that is a flawed system. a gimmick to those who will look carefully.

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-27 at 04:57 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    I would personally like to just be down with the artificial ceiling and allow players to decide what they are ready for/capable of through... play. GW2 seeks this as a goal in design, which is quite nice to me.
    fencers, i would love to hear your views on alternatives to leveling... say an mmorpg decides to get rid of leveling. what kinds of features would u put in place so players have a sense of accomplishment and advancement? do u wish for the game to be completely open-ended? how would the various zones/mobs have different difficulties?
    Last edited by Questar; 2011-12-26 at 09:04 PM.

  9. #29
    Blademaster Pridefox's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Location
    Georgia
    Posts
    26
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    We can't really say that without testing, you are forgetting all classes have been extensively tested in PvP and other environments for years. They have been doing balancing and other junk. Mesmer took so long to release was because it felt weaker to everything else.

    I can assure you there won't be a flavor of the month. If there is, down it will go.
    Realistically though, most mmo's are tested for years as well and at one point or another balancing is out of whack. The difference is in an mmo like WoW where you have to level a new character all the way up, by the time the average player max's out that new character that imbalance is taken away. But when you don't have to go through that leveling, a team can easily take advantage of w/e the considered op class(es) is (Btw just speaking about pvp). I know Anet is efficient and i'm not saying this will happen... just a reason why I like leveling.
    Last edited by Pridefox; 2011-12-26 at 09:37 PM.

  10. #30
    I'd rather MMOs have completely story-based progression in place of levels and possibly gear. I don't know specifics of how it'd work (though I've got a lot of ideas...), but I I think it'd go somewhere a lot more interesting than the achievement-based progression of the vast majority of MMOs.

    GW2 already did away with gear-based progression, I don't see why another game another generation from now can't do away with levels.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Questar View Post
    fencers, i would love to hear your views on alternatives to leveling... say an mmorpg decides to get rid of leveling. what kinds of features would u put in place so players have a sense of accomplishment and advancement? do u wish for the game to be completely open-ended? how would the various zones/mobs have different difficulties?
    I'd rather have an emphasis on personal ability to accomplish tasks by whatever means the player can think of. Don't think accomplishment has to come from a ding either. Going to an area where mobs are tougher than normal and still besting them is a great feeling regardless of dinging.

    Dream/fantasy: Player have no levels but are able to tweak and modify their attributes as they adventure along in the world. Being more defensive or offensive as they see fit. Mobs and content scale based on engagement- one person attacking a troll, and that troll has a few simple attacks and median level of damage. Two people attacking that same troll, the mob gains an additional skill/attack and some higher damage output, etc. Kinda see this in Rift and GW2 already, but it would ideally be taken further in my fantasyland MMO.

    I like the sense of danger in not knowing if that mob can own me. But it's not too tough a design challenge to simply place a limiter on what a given mob can do by checking against a player's skills/attributes and # of players engaging the target. Could be interesting with dynamic combat as well.

    As far as overall progression I want that to be in the form of acquisitions and story. TOR follows 99% of the Warcraft model, that's fine. But where it breaks is in the AMAZING class stories. If done right, having a compelling story is a great motivator in pushing your character forward.

    And of course, I have this awesome looking sword because I ventured into a den of elite rats and came out alive through ingenuity and guile alone. Instead of just having a sword of awesome from the previous den of elite rats with +1 to rat killing on it. >.>
    Last edited by Fencers; 2011-12-26 at 10:04 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Pridefox View Post
    Realistically though, most mmo's are tested for years as well and at one point or another balancing is out of whack. The difference is in an mmo like WoW where you have to level a new character all the way up, by the time the average player max's out that new character that imbalance is taken away. But when you don't have to go through that leveling, a team can easily take advantage of w/e the considered op class(es) is (Btw just speaking about pvp). I know Anet is efficient and i'm not saying this will happen... just a reason why I like leveling.
    Speaking from terms of PvP, the main reason of imbalance is not leveling itself. It is scaling/gear. However since GW2 removes that from PvP all together it is easier and more efficient to balance classes because stats/gear will always be the same. They don't have to worry about Warriors X move scaling too much with Y stat because there is no possible way to increase it further.

    Arenanet does not have to balance PvP around any level except 80 since everyone scales to max level with appropriate stats for said level, all they have to do is balance the moves. Balance the damage they do or their effects. No other factors will change after they balance it except maybe an expansion.
    Last edited by zito; 2011-12-26 at 10:14 PM.
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

  13. #33
    I actually really like the leveling process, atleast for the first time. I do hate leveling alts (I love alts) through the same content and same quests over and over. Thats why I really like DE's and the possibility to level your character solely by PvP, WvW, completely by crafting and so on.

  14. #34
    Don't personally find questing engaging really. I have no particular love or desire for "adventure" or "immersion" in MMOs. I simply dislike the artificial limitation levels present. I am only ever interested in the endgame &/or whatever is the top level content.

    It's a nice idea to have scaling in GW2 for this dilemma. Just gotta see how it works out ultimately. Still, why even bother with leveling? Just give me it all and say, "Here are the dungeons. Test how good you really are..."

    No PVP interest so that is an auto-no.

  15. #35
    Herald of the Titans Ynna's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Belgium
    Posts
    2,736
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    It's a nice idea to have scaling in GW2 for this dilemma. Just gotta see how it works out ultimately. Still, why even bother with leveling? Just give me it all and say, "Here are the dungeons. Test how good you really are..."
    While I'm agreeing with a lot of what you're saying about levels, I don't think it's a good idea to just make all content available from the start. It might be okay for you and me, but for beginners, or someone who doesn't quite understand their class/profession. As soon as people can do something, they will try to do so. Any game needs some kind of pacing, and if you're not using leveling, you'll have to do it otherwise.
    Retired Holy Priest
    As a rule, I try to act on the internet as I would in real life. If I have offended you, feel free to point it out. Unless I meant to offend you, I will probably apologize.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Ynna View Post
    While I'm agreeing with a lot of what you're saying about levels, I don't think it's a good idea to just make all content available from the start. It might be okay for you and me, but for beginners, or someone who doesn't quite understand their class/profession. As soon as people can do something, they will try to do so. Any game needs some kind of pacing, and if you're not using leveling, you'll have to do it otherwise.
    There are many ways around that. Aion introduced it's skills with a popup video demonstration on acquisition. Which showed how a skill worked, looked and gave a brief rundown of what it's use was. Similarly, MOBAs have this type of introduction feature. Another game I played for years, simply had players visit trainers who would... erhm, train you in the art of blahblah skill.

    Doling out abilities piecemeal is fine. But it doesn't have to be attached to a leveling system that is an artificial ceiling. The entire device wouldn't be so loathsome if say, there was a time when during your level 17 career the tools & access to content was relative to level 17. Most often, this is not the case. The limitations on your ability to "tank" or "heal", for example, are merely level barriers in traditional MMOs. Not whether you actually are good enough as a player to actually tank, heal or otherwise best an encounter.

    If I feel I am capable of beating an encounter, the limitation should be my own skill. Not gear or levels.

  17. #37
    Mechagnome vilhelm1992's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    where ever you are when you've just had a long fight against another player, to screw up your day
    Posts
    519
    i like levels but they could do it like in Fable one, you gain experience, but you don't level, you simply choose an aspect of your character to improve, so like more strength, more health, more toughness, more mana, a new spell a new perk, ect where XP is more of a currency then a progression bar
    Last edited by vilhelm1992; 2011-12-27 at 02:14 AM.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Questar View Post
    i believe leveling is necessary for 2 reasons:
    1. to give a sense of advancement(psychological)
    2. to restrict player movement(game design)

    to keep a player engaged in a game, we need to give them something to attain(max level) and a feeling they are achieving that goal(level increments). leveling is a simple way to get that.
    to keep a player moving in a predetermined route(maybe so they dont get ahead of themselves in terms of storyline), we label certain zones as level 1-10, 11-20 and so on.

    for the people who like levels:
    how much level is too much? as expansions increase and level caps increase, it becomes a drag for new players to come in and level from 1 to say, 100 levels. what started out as a tool to measure advancement becomes a hindrance that a new player has to overcome. is there a better way to balance the need for increase in power for the existing player and the barrier of high level cap for a new player?

    for the people who dislike levels:
    now if we take away player levels, what else can we do to give players a sense of advancement? better gear? if all zones are the same "difficulty" then where is the challenge and sense of becoming more powerful as you play?

    what other pros and cons do you see in the concept of player levels?
    I don't think the leveling process has to be a hindrance. If you start playing a game after its been out for a while, part of the fun is getting to finally join 'the big boys' at level cap. In that sense there is a strong motivation to level, and the psychological reward of getting to the end is that much greater.

    From a different angle, leveling in GW2 and endgame in GW2 are pretty much the same thing. Not sure yet if this is good or bad.

  19. #39
    I already said this in another thread but I think it is because a lot of people that have already played mmo's will be playing this game and will not go throughout the whole world for the story or exploration if they are already powerful enough to go straight into dungeons and high level dynamic events. Arenanet wants everyone to experience everything they put in the game and the levels gives you a reason to actually go throughout the world and experience all they want you to.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Dream/fantasy: Player have no levels but are able to tweak and modify their attributes as they adventure along in the world. Being more defensive or offensive as they see fit.
    thanks for your replies.
    normally, a player will stop gaining new attributes from leveling when he hits max level and start gaining attributes from tiered gear. in your fantasy mmo, when would the player stop gaining attributes if levels do not exist? do they gain attributes per X mobs/quests and never stop?

    ---------- Post added 2011-12-27 at 04:58 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    I don't think the leveling process has to be a hindrance. If you start playing a game after its been out for a while, part of the fun is getting to finally join 'the big boys' at level cap. In that sense there is a strong motivation to level, and the psychological reward of getting to the end is that much greater.

    From a different angle, leveling in GW2 and endgame in GW2 are pretty much the same thing. Not sure yet if this is good or bad.
    well in a fledgling mmo, leveling is more of a sense of progression(everyone else is also leveling). in a mature mmo, leveling is a hindrance(everyone else is already max level and all these levels are getting in your way to joining 'the big boys').
    i believe this is why everyone is mostly excited about "XYZ NEW MMO" and jaded about "wow this mmo is slow and old".

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •