Bring back the trophy system. It was literally perfect.

[cFortyfive]

As for loot, it's been mathematically proven that it's harder to gear out in a 10m than a 25m. That's generally fine since it's the price 10m raids pay in exchange for being easier to organize, but make no mistake it IS slower to gear in 10 than in 25.

Err how exactly is he wrong this tier in regards to tokens ? There are only 2 tier tokens dropping on 25 man. My main has exactly 0 397 pieces while my alt mage who raids only 10 man has 3.
Having said that I still think that the pacing at which you accumulate gear on both difficulties is good enough.

[Sethala]

Personally, I do agree that there should be some system to let you turn in several tokens for one of your choice. Basically, make it horribly inefficient (about 3 tokens each, perhaps), but also prevent players from being completely left out by not having their token drop.

The mentality should be that you want to give the tier token to someone that can use it, since that'll gear up the guild faster, but if no one can use the token it doesn't completely go to waste.

[Sandwrong]

Man, for me the trophy system would suck. Allow me to explain.

In T11, I tanked with my Pally. I easily got 5 piece in the first few weeks. Before any other token class got their 2 piece.
In T12, I rocked with my hunter. I quickly became the first raider to get four piece, only behind our Warrior Tank.
In T13, I brought the Mage. I am the only player with a T13 set bonus, because our Druid healer likes his T12 4p too much to break it yet.

It's been decided that whatever character I raid with at the beginning of the tier, will see the most usable token drops. I am ta'veren.

Edit: Props to anyone that gets the reference.

[Notdev]

The ICC system is probably better than the Trophy system (Still Prot/Vanq/Conq, but a token can be redeemed for any piece). Still randomness, but less then that of the current tier system.

A 10 man would be able to fully deck out everyone with 4set in under 7 weeks, thats probably too fast for Blizzard's liking. Honestly, it keeps people raiding longer. No one worth it will quit due to loot RNG.

A couple other alternatives would be one, maybe two, specific bosses dropping trophy-type items, or ICC type tokens, sort of like Al'Akir.

I've been getting screwed over by loot RNG forever but still don't want Blizzard to do away with the randomness of loot. It would be less fun.

[Dexiefy]

Blizzard seems to have an idea of how fast they want people getting those tier pieces and the RNG factors into that. Take the RNG away, and I imagine Blizzard would have to slow down the acquisition rate in some other manner, likely by making the tokens no longer a guaranteed drop.

Randomized loot is never, ever going to go away. Might as well accept that now.

yeah but person in 25 man will get 4pt MUCH faster than person in 10 man, thats a fact and blizz in fact should do something with 10 man loot. Preferebly make a system that increases drop chance of usefull items.
Its more than annoying to disenchant like 50% if not more loot every single week just because you dont have a class/specc that can use it
Example, after clearing firelands heroic for months i havent seen 1 hungerer drop from domo and for 2.5 month raggy wasnt dropping anything but protector token... our group ahvent EVER seen a single sulfuras drop, neither normal or heroic.
I know rng is rng, but there are fucking limits. Especially when 25 man raids dont have to put up with having so much loot being disenchanted or being plainly useless

No one worth it will quit due to loot RNG

imagine a situation. 10 man guild is stuck on ultraxion and is unable to reach dps limits. They are trying every week to break him but they cant. They also arent getting any gear upgrades cause of bad drops. After 1 month the guild would break apart, simply because of shitty game design.

In 25 man having completly rng drops is fine as there is miniscule chance that it will go to enchanter. In 10 man its completly different story.

As for loot, it's been mathematically proven that it's harder to gear out in a 10m than a 25m. That's generally fine since it's the price 10m raids pay in exchange for being easier to organize, but make no mistake it IS slower to gear in 10 than in 25.

Easier to organize but much less forgiving than 25 man
Gearing for 1 player should be equal in both 25 and 10. There is not a single reason why it shouldnt, but it will happen only if blizz implements system that will nearly eliminate for eample leather agi drops if there is no rogue, but still leave small drop chance for your resto/boomkin druid offspec.

[underdogba]

The trophy system was absolutely terrible for PuGs because you would be rolling against 9/24 people every time guaranteed. The tokens badly need to be rebalanced (every LFR or 10 man PuG I'm ever in has over half the raid on Vanq) but one generic trophy for any piece for any class is just too wide an option.

This is a completely fallacious idea that needs to be put to rest immediately, because I constantly see people thinking like this.

Let's take the example of 10 man, where your classes are split 3-3-4 to the tokens --

Trophy system - P(winning) = 0.1 (10 people rolling for 1 token they can all use)

Token system (4-class) - P(winning) = P(right token drops) * P(rolling highest) = (4/10) * (1/4) = 0.1

Token system (3-class) - P(winning) = P(right token drops) * P(rolling highest) = (3/10) * (1/3) = 0.1

[Notdev]

yeah but person in 25 man will get 4pt MUCH faster than person in 10 man, thats a fact and blizz in fact should do something with 10 man loot. Preferebly make a system that increases drop chance of usefull items.
Its more than annoying to disenchant like 50% if not more loot every single week just because you dont have a class/specc that can use it
Example, after clearing firelands heroic for months i havent seen 1 hungerer drop from domo and for 2.5 month raggy wasnt dropping anything but protector token... our group ahvent EVER seen a single sulfuras drop, neither normal or heroic.
I know rng is rng, but there are fucking limits. Especially when 25 man raids dont have to put up with having so much loot being disenchanted or being plainly useless


imagine a situation. 10 man guild is stuck on ultraxion and is unable to reach dps limits. They are trying every week to break him but they cant. They also arent getting any gear upgrades cause of bad drops. After 1 month the guild would break apart, simply because of shitty game design.

In 25 man having completly rng drops is fine as there is miniscule chance that it will go to enchanter. In 10 man its completly different story.

Didn't Blizzard say that they would keep 25 mans dropping more loot per player before they combined the lockouts? Its one of the very few remaining incentives to continue raiding 25 man...

[underdogba]

imagine a situation. 10 man guild is stuck on ultraxion and is unable to reach dps limits. They are trying every week to break him but they cant. They also arent getting any gear upgrades cause of bad drops. After 1 month the guild would break apart, simply because of shitty game design.

While I agree with the basic principle underlying this statement, it is quite the stretch to suggest that there's any content whatsoever in regular mode DS that requires DS gear to actually defeat, when the typical player even in less than full 378 could very manageably down every encounter by improving their overall skill level.

[Dexiefy]

Didn't Blizzard say that they would keep 25 mans dropping more loot per player before they combined the lockouts? Its one of the very few remaining incentives to continue raiding 25 man...

they can get more loot tough i dont exactly know why they should but hey, i dont care really. Fact is that 10 man loot distribution is broken.
In 25 man there is hardly a chance where in first weeks of clearing you will disenchant any loot. There is always some1 who can use it. In 10 man you might disenchant most of the loot in first weeks just because you dont have class/specc that can use it.

10 mans don't get shafted, at least you guys got it easy on the difficulty of the bosses.

how exactly? there been countless threads about 10m vs 25m difficulty and it all comes down to 25 man being harder to gather and being more forgiving while 10 man having more space to spread out lol

I played in both 10m and 25m and im honestly saying that i have to focus way more in 10m cause in 10m there is more work to be done by single unit than it is in 25 man. Same goes with battling certain mechanics. Some fights become really difficult when you dont have access to nearly unlimited resources of 25m (try baleroc hc in 10m w/o spriest and with spriest lol)

So please, dont talk about difficulty unless you experienced most of the fights in this expansion on both 10 man and 25 man during progression times, not farm times.

While I agree with the basic principle underlying this statement, it is quite the stretch to suggest that there's any content whatsoever in regular mode DS that requires DS gear to actually defeat, when the typical player even in less than full 378 could very manageably down every encounter by improving their overall skill level.

try hc then...

[Notdev]

imagine a situation. 10 man guild is stuck on ultraxion and is unable to reach dps limits. They are trying every week to break him but they cant. They also arent getting any gear upgrades cause of bad drops. After 1 month the guild would break apart, simply because of shitty game design.

Blizzard takes this into account. If many, many guilds can down Heroic Ultraxion (30+ seconds ahead of the enrage, at that) with one clear of DS and one-half clear of heroic DS worth of gear, so can this theoretical guild. It may take them longer, but they can't blame loot as the sole reason they can't.

[damage8185]

Bringing back the trophy system would mark the ruin of this game, and here's why.

This game has gone through many different stages of loot "systems" since it's incarnation. In vanilla, it was 2 or 3 items per 40 people. During BC, it began with the t4 and t5 token system, where you had classes split up into three separate tokens. The first incarnation was by far the worse design, with Paladin, Rogue, and Shaman being on the Champion token, Hunter, Mage, and Warlock being on the Hero token, and let's not forget, Warrior, Priest, and Druid being on the Defender token. That's right. All your major healers and tanks were on one token. When the game hit Black Temple and Hyjal, Blizzard realized that they should probably switch things up, to even out loot distribution, and that's where our current tokens came about. The new distribution had the right amount of people on the right amount of tokens. When Wrath released and DKs were introduced, they threw them on the Vanquisher token, and upped the drop rate of said token to compensate for 4 classes being on the token. It worked fine throughout Naxx and Ulduar.

Then ToC came. Pugging Trial was a pretty painless process, but getting tier was far worse. Everyone and their mother would roll on a token, sometimes, just to get the 50 gold from vendoring it. It was a mess to say the least. I'm sure almost all of you have had that experience when the one guy won the trophy, you inspect them, and they were full T9. The same thing would happen in Raid Finder in the game's current incarnation. Tokens would drop, and instead of having 8-10 people rolling against you, you'd have 24 other people trying to get that one token. I'm sure if that's the way loot was now, there would be a thread here saying "Bring back the token system!"

Now, before you say, "Oh, but people wouldn't do that!" Think long and hard about the community at large for this game. In a Raid Finder with so many people, what are the chances you'll see any of those other people again in this game? At least in ToC, you had to see those people outside of the raid, you had to interact with them. Everyone wants their character to advance, especially when in a pug. I personally would not pass on anything I couldn't use on any of my characters for a random pug. For a guildy? Sure! But not for a pug. Take today for example. My friend just started playing again after a 9 month hiatus. We started gearing through the new heroics, then we went into the first Raid Finder bosses. In his T11 gear, he was doing very competitive DPS, and even beat the other rogue (who was 3/5 t13 with Fear and Vengeance) on several boss fights. We get to Hagara, the dagger he needs drops, and the other rogue rolls need on it and wins. My friend gets the whisper "Daggers suck with combat," and the rogue promptly walks up to him and DE's the dagger in front of him. Those are the kind of people on the other side of the computer screen, and you want to make a generalized tier token? I'd rather go play SWTOR before that happens.

Yes, RNG is a part of this game, it always will be for video games. From how much damage you do per ability, to what loot drops, there will constantly be RNG. But you learn to live with it. I like the fact that you cannot buy tier with valor. Make people raid to get gear, like this game was originally designed for. With the new Raid Finder it is significantly easier to get gear than it used to be, and I for one am thankful for that. Raid Finder should have been put into place a long time ago, and with a few correct tweaks, can be the best feature Blizzard has come out with yet.

[cFortyfive]

Blizzard takes this into account. If many, many guilds can down Heroic Ultraxion (30+ seconds ahead of the enrage, at that) with one clear of DS and one-half clear of heroic DS worth of gear, so can this theoretical guild. It may take them longer, but they can't blame loot as the sole reason they can't.

The enrage seems to be quite insignificant for 10 mans in that case. I still hardly see how exactly 1 token for 10 and 2 tokens for 25 directly translates into getting your 4p faster in 25mans.

[Sandwrong]

The enrage seems to be quite insignificant for 10 mans in that case. I still hardly see how exactly 1 token for 10 and 2 tokens for 25 directly translates into getting your 4p faster in 25mans.

It translates pretty simple really. with two tokens dropping you have a better chance at your token dropping, and an okay chance at getting both tokens to be your class.

[Yoshimiko]

Clearly because of the token system, no one is able to kill heroic bosses. Oh wait...

No, They just have 5 groups running through - gearing up 40 different people. The best geared people get to horde ALL of the loot(Arcane mages in seperate raids until time for progression boss, so that loot is spread out - main tanks as well, healers as well).

RNG based loot is awful. Pure and simple. It's fine for most drops to be RNG, but our group is DONE with war/sham/hunter tokens now. They're going to offspec. If we get another week of them - *They will be vendored*. For some reason they seem to be the most common by a LANDSLIDE. AT least let us trade in 2 or 3 of 1 token for another. Because of how abysmally rare dk tokens have been in the last 2 tiers for our group...It's pretty frustrating. Especially seeing as there's 5 people rolling on them.

[ComputerNerd]

This is already done in top guilds for legendaries/etc.
But in general as to "this should not happen." Why not?
Also I don't think anyone wants trophies for all items, just tier.
Still takes time to acquire them, rate can easily adjusted by the number of bosses on which they are available, etc.

Because a generic trophy takes out the RNG completely while a token limited to selected classes ensures that the result can't be completely manipulated by manipulating the roster.
Sure you can swap in x class to try and get x token, but there is no certainty that their token will drop.

That is why a generic trophy is a bad idea.
There should still be a randomness about it.

The randomness should remain in that you can't ensure that a given member will see their token/trophy drop.
However a compromise could be introduced in that a single boss will not so readily lock you out from a useful token drop.
A token exchangeable for multiple, perhaps one of two selected tier pieces. Being exchangeable for every piece would prevent the need to progress beyond a specific boss, but still allowing full tier sets to be obtained.

[Yoshimiko]

Because a generic trophy takes out the RNG completely while a token limited to selected classes ensures that the result can't be completely manipulated by manipulating the roster.
Sure you can swap in x class to try and get x token, but there is no certainty that their token will drop.

That is why a generic trophy is a bad idea.
There should still be a randomness about it.

Do you enjoy this? 90% of loot will still be random. Tokens are all that wouldn't be. Is your tank sitting on 3 pcs? Healer? Got 1 dps at 3 pcs? Etc. It would be nice to have SOME control over loot, rather than your tank sitting on 3 LFR pieces, and wiping to some mechanic because you can't get that 4pc to help that little extra heals.

[rebecca191]

Yeah, so much loot would still be random. Trinkets, weapons, etc. Why not at least offer something in normal & hard modes (if it would cause too many people rolling in LFR) like the ICC tokens. You needed to get the token your class was on to drop, but once it did you could decide what piece was more valuable to upgrade. It reduces waste while still leaving some randomness. Personally I don't think tier needs to be as random as it is now but at least the ICC token system would be a middle ground.

Just looking back at TOC, sure it was easy for players in guilds to get full tier sets. But you know what? I didn't get normal Solace of the Defeated til I was working on Heroic Lich King, and I NEVER got the heroic version, though not for lack of trying. Believe me, there was plenty else in that tier that was completely random and beyond the control of players.