The artwork missconcept of MoP...

[Tuor]

I'll start this post by the end... What do you feel when you keep watching your favorite TV show over and over?? Well, its starts getting boring, and then turn unfun... At least this is true with me, other people may think in a diferent way...

So what as this to do with wow?? Well, when i see new gameplay mechanics (talents, glyphs) all i see is artwork, they removing active gameplay mechanics and replacing them by artwork... And why do have these feeling??

Lets see Glyphs... Minor glyphs are now pure cosmetic, lets imagine a warrior that has the criter fear glyph... I admit, when i've seen this, here in MMO, i laughed, its fun i admit, but fun for how long?? Remember the TV show example i gave at the beggining?? Its the same, fun will turn into boreness, and then just stops being fun after a whille. And this feeling is already in-game, currently in cata, a lot of classes just don't need to have minor glyphs equiped, just because they provide absolutely no bonus to gameplay, and a lot of players just don't equip them...

Talents its even worst, we have the same artwork concept, all we are allowed to choose is the artwork of our spells, meanwhille, gameplay bonus have been removed, and even the main reason they used to remove them (people copy pasting specs) has already failed... lets imagine a Hybrid class, he will have a tier were he can choose betwin a healing, a tanking or a dps spell, how many people do you really think that as dps are going to pick up the healing spell?? None, because if they do so, the same that currently happens will hapen again, they will be kiked from partys and so on, which is the same as saying that some of the goals of these so called talents have already failled... Meanwhille Blizzard removed gameplay bonus, gameplay custumization, and they are doing it with a system that doesn't allow you to skip unfun talents (as a warrior i hate charge modifiers, they are useless for PvE in 90% of the time), currently players can skip them... But not in MoP. Then we have the tematic tier concept, and this is why i keep saying that talents are just artwork, here, choose betwin these 3 stuns... Here choose betwin these 3 healing spells or these 3 totems... Its just artwork...

The problem of artwork, is that it comes with a termination date, its fun at the beggining, and then can turn very unfun... And best example of it, are the people playing the game that refuse to even equip minor glyphs... You know why, because the termination date as arrived for them, they find it no longer fun...

I hate this nonsense artwork thing, its even worst when i see them removing fun stuff (such as custumization) and implementing a thing that will expire. Its a fail concept, what do you think??

[Venziir]

What I think? That people whine and doomsay too much, mixed with the fear of change.

[Tuor]

What I think? That people whine and doomsay too much, mixed with the fear of change.

I have no problems changing something... If that change provides me with evolution... Its not what Blizzard is doing at this moment, they are downgrading their product, its not evolution... They are changing it for worst.

[Tobley]

Nothing is revolutionary.
Name anything that is breaking ground with new technology in any field.
I almost guarantee you can count the revolutionary ideas in the entire world on your hands.

[Venziir]

I have no problems changing something... If that change provides me with evolution... Its not what Blizzard is doing at this moment, they are downgrading their product, its not evolution... They are changing it for worst.

Doomsaying - check.

[skrump]

#1 minor glyphs were always intended to be cosmetic and fun changes only

#2 majority of classes don't choose between healing/tanking/dps talent, they choose between 3 situational talents of which one might be more beneficial to you because you would use it more than the other 2.

Perfect example would be the paladin talent tree as there is not a single talent that wouldn't be useful to all 3 specs though some are more useful for pvp than they are raiding especially if you play dps because Defensive talents are not exactly a huge benefit to dps in a raid environment however in such cases you have 2 other talents to choose from. "yet those same defensive talents could be abundantly more useful while pvping/grinding/dueling

[Tuor]

Doomsaying - check.

How is Human behavior doomsday story telling?? Human behavior is based in psycholy, and psychology allow people to see what happens even before something is implemented... Its like be able to predict that a McDonnalds shop wont have a huge succes in Marrocos if they keep selling pork meat...

I gave you a real example of how people get annoyed even with things they love, this is psychology, not doomsday.

#1 minor glyphs were always intended to be cosmetic and fun changes only

Correct... And what was the result?? The result is people that just not use them... And we don't even need to go to the beta servers to see this... Its happening on cata servers...

#2 majority of classes don't choose between healing/tanking/dps talent, they choose between 3 situational talents of which one might be more beneficial to you because you would use it more than the other 2.

Perfect example would be the paladin talent tree as there is not a single talent that wouldn't be useful to all 3 specs though some are more useful for pvp than they are raiding especially if you play dps because Defensive talents are not exactly a huge benefit to dps in a raid environment however in such cases you have 2 other talents to choose from. "yet those same defensive talents could be abundantly more useful while pvping/grinding/dueling

Lets put things in this way... We are playing MoP, and you see a nab Fury Warrior that instead of Avatar picked up Shockwave, can i ask what do you do?? Well, you kick him... And you are right to kick him... How his this diferent then the present game?? It isn't... Its the same... With a lot of more artwork for those that love it... And a lot of less custumization for those that love it...

[Deleted]

Sorry but I stopped reading when u compared a TV show with WoW.
A big thing in WoW that keeps me playing is to do things with other players online, that never gets old for me.

[Thage]

If you're bored of the critter fear, grab another minor glyph to play with.

Myself, I love the idea of Astral form for my boomkin, or White Stag form instead of Travel form. Minor glyphs were never intended to change your playstyle dramatically like Prime and Major glyphs are, they're there to be fun cosmetic changes--customization, in other words. The same thing you're accusing Blizzard of removing.

Talents were never a genuine choice. Anyone who didn't take a direct damage boost talent in their DPS tree, or any fury warrior who didn't take Raging Blow, was doing nothing but severely gimping their output. Nine out of every ten players will just copy their spec from Elitist Jerks or MMO-Champion or some other site, rather than do their own research and theorycrafting, and proceed to forget their talents exist until the next overhaul. At least with the upcoming changes, each choice will be a genuine choice--while it may be more situationally useful for a death knight to have Grasp of Gorefiend at level 90, a more DPS-oriented death knight can easily grab Endless Winter without a problem. On that same note, a warrior won't be penalized for deciding to take two Charges before they get a cooldown, or to add a stun to their Charge for a longer cooldown, or just to get a shorter cooldown on Charge. Utility is the name of the game, and each choice is actually worth making rather than simply copying and pasting what a third-party website says without needing to make any choices on your own.

As to your bit about the Fury Warrior grabbing Shockwave instead of Avatar, why would you kick him? Shockwave is ridiculously useful in AoE-heavy trash pulls, especially if they have high damage output but are susceptible to stuns. It may not have the direct boost Avatar does, but that warrior will have more reasons to use it rather than keep it off cooldown 'til the boss pull like he would Avatar.

[Lecan]

The goal of the talent system in MoP is to provide roughly equal choices of which one will generally be better in different scenarios. While I haven't looked at many of the talent trees, the Paladin tree (as mentioned earlier) does this quite well. Each tier provides 3 choices in a specific genre. Based on my individual preferences, one might be the best, but my friend plays differently and gets more mileage out of a different talent. When we get to different encounters, Arena setups, BGs, dailies, etc we might both change out our talents to the third option.

Yes, some (pre-MoP) talents are boring or even useless. Instead of complaining that you get them for free automatically (I believe without even a gold or time cost from the trainer), just ignore them and don't use them. I rarely use Retribution Aura as a Holy Paladin, but I don't get angry when I see the icon.

TL;DR: Not using an option should not equal you getting furious when you see that option that others like.

[Biggles Worth]

I'll start this post by the end... What do you feel when you keep watching your favorite TV show over and over?? Well, its starts getting boring, and then turn unfun... At least this is true with me, other people may think in a diferent way...

My favorite tv show made me wanting to see it more and more the longer it went on, the further I got into it.

[Samaramon]

Dunno what you're talking about, I've seen Friends all ten seasons over 9000 times and I'd still watch it :3

[blaqkmagick]

So you think i would be more fun without all the cosmetic glyphs??
Right now you have gameplay + customization. How is that better than just gameplay?

[Tuor]

Dunno what you're talking about, I've seen Friends all ten seasons over 9000 times and I'd still watch it :3

Try keep watching the same episode over... and over... and again... But remember, always the same episode , and you will understand what i'm trying to say...

I used to love lost, i don't even signed for guild raids on thursday's because it was the day of a new Lost episode... But currently when i see repositions i normally change channel...

@Callei And what happens when you have tested them all?? Some people just skip it, because its pointless to equip them. And this is happenning just right now.

You gave the charge example... This is the example of gameplay tunning i was speaking about... Charge modifiers are useless 90% of the time in PvE situations, currently i can skipp it (i normally pick up blood craze) i won't be able to do that kind of gameplay tunning in MoP .

The Kick example was just that... I normally always vote no for kicking, it was just an example that optimal is always better then non-optimall, if this happens today, there is a hight chance of happening in MoP... A jerk is always a Jerk, it doesn't matter if the product is Jerk bullet prove, my point was always that this talent system won't be jerk bullet prove, it behaves very similar to what we have now, with more artwork and less custumization... And i can't stop hating the lack of custumization .

[Thage]

@Callei And what happens when you have tested them all?? Some people just skip it, because its pointless to equip them. And this is happenning just right now.

Most people I know actually love the idea of customization through Minor Glyphs. How many mages do you know that aren't rocking a glyph to turn their polymorph into a penguin, turtle, or monkey? How many druids do you know aren't talking about a chance to turn into a two-person ground mount via the glyph that turns travel form into a stag? How many people do you know honestly dislike the idea that they can further customize their character to their liking via minor glyphs along with everything else?

You gave the charge example... This is the example of gameplay tunning i was speaking about... Charge modifiers are useless 90% of the time in PvE situations, currently i can skipp it (i normally pick up blood craze) i won't be able to do that kind of gameplay tunning in MoP .

That's funny. One of my favorite ways to gain rage at the start of a trash or boss pull is to Charge in. The only time that doesn't really work is if I'm playing Fury, and even then it's just a matter of Berserking and Heroic Leaping in. My point is, as Arms or Prot, you will get a -lot- of mileage out of the Charge modification talents.

The Kick example was just that... I normally always vote no for kicking, it was just an example that optimal is always better then non-optimall, if this happens today, there is a hight chance of happening in MoP... A jerk is always a Jerk, it doesn't matter if the product is Jerk bullet prove, my point was always that this talent system won't be jerk bullet prove, it behaves very similar to what we have now, with more artwork and less custumization... And i can't stop hating the lack of custumization .

You can't fix jerks, and that has nothing to do with whether the Fury warrior opts for utility and AoE damage versus a direct damage boost that he likely will never use except for boss pulls or hairy trash pulls. The talent system that's coming up allows for more customization than the current one, since while there's only six tiers, each tier is an actual, real, honest-to-the-stars choice. Your gameplay won't suffer a rough drop of 20% in your output (be it DPS, healing, or mitigation) just because you didn't pick the talents EJ says to pick. If you pick the 'wrong' talent, you'll maybe drop 1-2% since most talents are geared toward utility. Utility, mind, is always useful in PvE up until you outgear the content you're running, at which point the zerg rush becomes viable.

[Tuor]

Most people I know actually love the idea of customization through Minor Glyphs. How many mages do you know that aren't rocking a glyph to turn their polymorph into a penguin, turtle, or monkey? How many druids do you know aren't talking about a chance to turn into a two-person ground mount via the glyph that turns travel form into a stag? How many people do you know honestly dislike the idea that they can further customize their character to their liking via minor glyphs along with everything else?

I didn't said it was unfun... All i've said is that its fun at the beggining, then becomes boring, and then (for some people) pointless, to the point were they just don't equip it anymore...

Another example of this, is, why do you thing people is always begging for more mounts?? How many people do you know in-game with less then 30 mounts on their main?? And thhen compare it with how many mounts they keep using... I'll answer, the great majorority of people keeps using same mounts for months... And when they get a new one, they will end rolling back to the one they were previously using before they got the new one... Unless they really enjoy new one, and if that happens there is very few chances of him to replace it for new one.

Glyphs are the same, if it is pointless, then a lot of people will stop using it after a whille, not saying they become unfun, just less apealing.

That's funny. One of my favorite ways to gain rage at the start of a trash or boss pull is to Charge in. The only time that doesn't really work is if I'm playing Fury, and even then it's just a matter of Berserking and Heroic Leaping in. My point is, as Arms or Prot, you will get a -lot- of mileage out of the Charge modification talents.

Yeah, i'm Fury... No one is perfect... That is why i'm always rage starved .

Still, its a fact that charge its pointless in 90% of PvE situations.

You can't fix jerks, and that has nothing to do with whether the Fury warrior opts for utility and AoE damage versus a direct damage boost that he likely will never use except for boss pulls or hairy trash pulls. The talent system that's coming up allows for more customization than the current one, since while there's only six tiers, each tier is an actual, real, honest-to-the-stars choice. Your gameplay won't suffer a rough drop of 20% in your output (be it DPS, healing, or mitigation) just because you didn't pick the talents EJ says to pick. If you pick the 'wrong' talent, you'll maybe drop 1-2% since most talents are geared toward utility. Utility, mind, is always useful in PvE up until you outgear the content you're running, at which point the zerg rush becomes viable.

I typed a valid example... And the example i've typed was very clear... With current system you don't have thematic tiers that only allow to pick up more of the same (stuns, snares, healing habilities, etc) they are all thematic, you can't skip them and get something else that fits into your gameplay style (like the example i gave you)... I don't call that custumization... What i see is Blizzard pretending that we do have freedom of choice when we have none... Where is the freedom of chosing in a tier where healing is the only option?? Or where stun and snares are the only option?? Or where charging is the only option? What happens if you want to skip one of them?? You can't, because this system wasn't designed for gameplay tunning (unlike the one we currently have), this new talent system was designed to provide you with diferent artwork, aka, the way you heal, the way you stun, the way you charge... You have no other option except picking one. With current system (and i hate copying pasting specs, i always have my own builds) you can skip what you don't like and you can get what you want, you can tune for PvP, for PvE, for PvE rush or even for PvE survival... And the best is that i was still at the top of the DPS charts when i was still playing WoW. I had 2 PvE specs, a rush one, and a survival one, both has Fury, and when i switched to the PvE survival one i barelly noticed the DPS changes, by not saying that allmost all healers loved (i had a few funny moments with that build and healers lol).

[Strakha]

Nothing is revolutionary.
Name anything that is breaking ground with new technology in any field.
I almost guarantee you can count the revolutionary ideas in the entire world on your hands.

How can I count them on my hands if there is nothing to count? You boggle me sir! But CERN is one example I can think of.

[Deleted]

Nothing is revolutionary.
Name anything that is breaking ground with new technology in any field.
I almost guarantee you can count the revolutionary ideas in the entire world on your hands.

Fire
The Wheel
Guns compared to swords
Law of Gravity
Relativity Theory
Nuclear power
Internet

Many MANY things were revolutionary in their time. I really don't see what you're aiming at.

[xanderd]

That's funny. One of my favorite ways to gain rage at the start of a trash or boss pull is to Charge in. The only time that doesn't really work is if I'm playing Fury, and even then it's just a matter of Berserking and Heroic Leaping in. My point is, as Arms or Prot, you will get a -lot- of mileage out of the Charge modification talents.

Well in MOP all specs can charge in any stance, so problem solved. I also have a fury alt and i am very excited about new ways to build rage.

[Thage]

I didn't said it was unfun... All i've said is that its fun at the beggining, then becomes boring, and then (for some people) pointless, to the point were they just don't equip it anymore...

Another example of this, is, why do you thing people is always begging for more mounts?? How many people do you know in-game with less then 30 mounts on their main?? And thhen compare it with how many mounts they keep using... I'll answer, the great majorority of people keeps using same mounts for months... And when they get a new one, they will end rolling back to the one they were previously using before they got the new one... Unless they really enjoy new one, and if that happens there is very few chances of him to replace it for new one.

Glyphs are the same, if it is pointless, then a lot of people will stop using it after a whille, not saying they become unfun, just less apealing.

You just confirmed my point for me. When Blizzard offers new forms of customization, be it a new race, new hairstyles, transmogrification, mounts, or minor glyphs, people will pick what they like best. Not every paladin runs around transmogrified into t2, so who's to say you won't see druids keeping Astral form, or White Stag form? The main thing here is choice. That is what people ask for when they ask for new stuff like that, and the more choices you offer, the happier more people are.

Yeah, i'm Fury... No one is perfect... That is why i'm always rage starved .

Still, its a fact that charge its pointless in 90% of PvE situations.

For you. Just because Fury doesn't currently get much mileage (and, as xanderd has pointed out, Charge will be freed of stance requirements, meaning in Mists of Pandaria even Fury will get a lot of use out of it on pulls and knockbacks) doesn't mean it's useless 90% of the time. What about pulls, which every encounter begins with? What about knockbacks, which are becoming more and more common among boss mechanics? What about bosses like Morchok, where you end up in Chargeable range just from getting behind pillars or avoiding fire? What about bosses like... bleeding hell, just about every boss ever, where avoiding fire can sometimes put you in Chargeable range? That's the point I'm making. Charge is useful in a large number of situations that put your warrior out of melee range, it's not a useless skill at all. You want to talk nigh-useless in PvE, let's talk Hamstring.

I typed a valid example... And the example i've typed was very clear... With current system you don't have thematic tiers that only allow to pick up more of the same (stuns, snares, healing habilities, etc) they are all thematic, you can't skip them and get something else that fits into your gameplay style (like the example i gave you)... I don't call that custumization... What i see is Blizzard pretending that we do have freedom of choice when we have none... Where is the freedom of chosing in a tier where healing is the only option?? Or where stun and snares are the only option?? Or where charging is the only option? What happens if you want to skip one of them?? You can't, because this system wasn't designed for gameplay tunning (unlike the one we currently have), this new talent system was designed to provide you with diferent artwork, aka, the way you heal, the way you stun, the way you charge... You have no other option except picking one. With current system (and i hate copying pasting specs, i always have my own builds) you can skip what you don't like and you can get what you want, you can tune for PvP, for PvE, for PvE rush or even for PvE survival... And the best is that i was still at the top of the DPS charts when i was still playing WoW. I had 2 PvE specs, a rush one, and a survival one, both has Fury, and when i switched to the PvE survival one i barelly noticed the DPS changes, by not saying that allmost all healers loved (i had a few funny moments with that build and healers lol).

You're missing the point. The current setup doesn't offer any real choice. If you, as a Fury warrior, skip Raging Blow, or don't take Flurry, or even skip over SMF/TG, you are severely gimping yourself in the name of individuality and doing things your own way. With the coming talent setup, you can instead pick between increasing your utility in different ways, which is something many classes badly need. You can still tune how you want to, the only difference now is that you are given the absolutely-required talents of today, the boring, passive increases are rolled into your baselines, and each talent choice matters. Right now, it doesn't matter worth a pile of horse kidneys what talents you pick, because I bet you nine times out of ten your spec is going to look just like a spec on Elitist Jerks, even if you did your own theorycrafting and research. Talents right now define cookie-cutter, and while there are fewer choices to make coming up, more of them are actual choices, and making the 'wrong' choice isn't going to kick your output in the cajones (for example, as noted earlier, a Fury warrior could pick Avatar for a direct damage boost, or pick Shockwave for AoE damage and an AoE stun, or they could make the choice of how to alter their Charge, which I've already covered is useful far more often than you seem to be willing to admit, or they can pick between three different self-heals that function differently while adding up to the same numbers in the end).