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  1. #61
    guild wars 1 also lacked carrots.
    it still kept people playing. for 1 reason: PVP.
    if you can't stick to a game for PVP, you won't stick to guild wars.
    GW1 offered players instant access to PVP. there were points to grind in PVP too. while your gear and stats were maxed by default, these points could be used to unlock new spells and runes. so if you felt like trying a new build in pvp, you had to grind yourself some points. while similar to WoW's honor system to some degree, it was much more enjoyable in the long run - even with all skills unlocked, there still were hundreds (rather thousands) of new builds that you could try to play, try to optimize... the PvP system of GW was very awesome. even random arena could keep you entertained for months. now add GvG battles and all the other forms of organized group PvP to that and you have a game that can keep players occupied with PvP for years.

    If Guild Wars 2 manages to pull off a PvP System that's equal in awesomeness to that of Guild Wars 1 then it will be here to stay.

    If it doesn't... well, besides the awesome PvP, Guild Wars 1 was essentially a massive Grind. Players didn't mind back then. Guild Wars PvE had no Challenge or Competition. none at all. From the available Information, GW2 will have similar PvE. bigger of course, more polished, but still not made for competitive gaming or hardcore progression. which means it will get boring quite fast after being played through once.

  2. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by ReWahn View Post
    guild wars 1 also lacked carrots.
    it still kept people playing. for 1 reason: PVP.
    if you can't stick to a game for PVP, you won't stick to guild wars.
    Pretty flimsy. I have no respect for PVP to any degree. Yet I stuck with Guild Wars 1 through all expansions with 3 50/50 characters in HOM.

    I never PVP in Warcraft, Rift or TOR. I play all actively and run fairly hardcore in PVE.

  3. #63
    there are players on WoW that don't PvE at all - they just play Arena. still, WoW PvP is inferior to GW1 PvP. in the same way, GW1 PvE is inferior to WoW PvE.
    From what we know at this Point, GW2 PvE will still be inferior to WoW PvE...

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by ReWahn View Post
    From what we know at this Point, GW2 PvE will still be inferior to WoW PvE...
    I disagree with that statement

  5. #65
    There's a lot of false-assumptions flying around in this thread.

    Gear and stat increasing games have their place. No denying they will still be popular. There's still a lot more to them than just getting the gear ofc.
    Hoping GW2 will be more skill based and story focused.

    I've reached the point now where the endless gear-cycle feels totally shallow. Where's the substance? It's like nihilistic consumerasism that brings a fleeting and ultimately unrewarding spasm of gratification and pseudo-enjoyment.

    I love stories and developing a character on a personal level in games. I just don't see how gear and numbers can possibly do this.
    I'm looking forward to a game where I don't have to invent half of the things about my character in my head about their personality, character etc.

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by SPeedy26 View Post
    I disagree with that statement
    Likewise. Not having raids =/= inferior. The fights I've seen in GW2 look a lot more entertaining than anything I did in WoW.

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by ReWahn View Post
    there are players on WoW that don't PvE at all - they just play Arena. still, WoW PvP is inferior to GW1 PvP. in the same way, GW1 PvE is inferior to WoW PvE.
    From what we know at this Point, GW2 PvE will still be inferior to WoW PvE...
    That is well and good. It's still totally flimsy to make a declarative statement one has to have an interest in PVP to maintain interest in Guild Wars 1 or 2. Or yet alone any MMO with PVP and PVE components.

    As long as one finds the game engaging, they will play. Has nothing to do with PVP or PVE in any objective sense.

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by ReWahn View Post
    there are players on WoW that don't PvE at all - they just play Arena. still, WoW PvP is inferior to GW1 PvP. in the same way, GW1 PvE is inferior to WoW PvE.
    From what we know at this Point, GW2 PvE will still be inferior to WoW PvE...
    Hope that "5 false assumptions" thread gets fleshed out and made a sticky...

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by ReWahn View Post
    there are players on WoW that don't PvE at all - they just play Arena. still, WoW PvP is inferior to GW1 PvP. in the same way, GW1 PvE is inferior to WoW PvE.
    From what we know at this Point, GW2 PvE will still be inferior to WoW PvE...
    I'm not big into PVP, but honestly, GW2 sounds pretty awesome (to me) from a PVE standpoint. What I'm hearing about it makes me want to try GW1, but from what I gather, GW1 is not like what GW2 will be.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by ReWahn View Post
    From what we know at this Point, GW2 PvE will still be inferior to WoW PvE...
    Pretty sure we haven't even seen end game elite dynamic events yet. The shatterer and Tequatl from the videos aren't end game. So you can't even make an assumption to begin with.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    Once you realise that carrots are pointless, you'll realise that you've already been wasting your time.

    Speaking of carrots.
    Get that in the devs face on the WoWforums ya know?

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    WoW:

    "Hey guys, remember when we were 80 and ulduar was super awesome hard and fun"

    "Yea!"

    "Let's go back and do it again, it was fun"

    .....

    Boss dies in 30 seconds thanks to gear inflation.

    Congratz, wasted content, wasted money. Sure it was effective when it was released, but now it just kinda taking up space unless you want gear or achievements but it is significantly easy to get now.

    GW2:

    "Hey guys remember that dragon we killed in X zone 2 months ago"

    "Yea!"

    "Dude it was so hard took forever to kill, lets kill it again!"

    "Yea!"

    Thanks to not having gear inflation, everything is the same as it was 2 months ago and it is still as hard as ever.

    You play this game for fun, not to be some overpowered zerged person thanks to gear. You want gear inflation? Then don't play GW2
    Final Fantasy XI had the same level cap for like 7 years. All progression was sideways, so while it was fun, it got kind of old after a while due to some of the best gear in the game being 6-7 years old.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelbanes View Post
    Hoping GW2 will be more skill based and story focused.
    RPGs are not 'skill-focused', they are based on strategy and planning, not button-mashing. RPG is not arcade game.
    Also we already found out that the only kind of persistent story will be a personal one, but solely for cosmetic rewards. We have no proof yet that actual in-game content will be having permanent effect on game world.

    If GW is a sitcom-like (with multiple unconnected and volatile stories) arcade (based on real-world motoric skills), it should not be advertised like a story-based MMORPG, don't yiou think?

  14. #74
    I am Murloc! ita's Avatar
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    Well, with WoW till nearly the end of Wrath the "carrots" worked on me not because of some psychological nonsense but because I could get the heroic raid gear, mix it with some PvP gear and go ganking and do BGs and kill stuff really fast while having moderate survivability. But after Cata made it all about healers and stacking resi I lost all interest in WoW.

    My point is, there need to be rewards that are actually useful for something, other than just looks because the "I'm supposed to get these rewards just because it's the goal of the game" sure isn't working for me and I'm sure for many others if there isn't any reason for it or getting those items doesn't make the game more fun somehow.
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  15. #75
    Scarab Lord Wrathonia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ita View Post
    Well, with WoW till nearly the end of Wrath the "carrots" worked on me not because of some psychological nonsense but because I could get the heroic raid gear, mix it with some PvP gear and go ganking and do BGs and kill stuff really fast while having moderate survivability. But after Cata made it all about healers and stacking resi I lost all interest in WoW.

    My point is, there need to be rewards that are actually useful for something, other than just looks because the "I'm supposed to get these rewards just because it's the goal of the game" sure isn't working for me and I'm sure for many others if there isn't any reason for it or getting those items doesn't make the game more fun somehow.
    I hate to say it, or the game just might not be for you. I and many others are done with the gear treadmill. If you want that, go find a game that still follows that model. I want something new and refreshing, thanks.

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by ita View Post
    Well, with WoW till nearly the end of Wrath the "carrots" worked on me not because of some psychological nonsense but because I could get the heroic raid gear, mix it with some PvP gear and go ganking and do BGs and kill stuff really fast while having moderate survivability. But after Cata made it all about healers and stacking resi I lost all interest in WoW.

    My point is, there need to be rewards that are actually useful for something, other than just looks because the "I'm supposed to get these rewards just because it's the goal of the game" sure isn't working for me and I'm sure for many others if there isn't any reason for it or getting those items doesn't make the game more fun somehow.
    GW2 does have rewards in it, they are useful as well just that no set is objectivity better then the other. Having 3 sets of armor is like owning 3 sport cars, sure you don't need the other 2 but it's still pretty kick ass to have them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tackhisis View Post
    RPGs are not 'skill-focused', they are based on strategy and planning, not button-mashing. RPG is not arcade game.
    Also we already found out that the only kind of persistent story will be a personal one, but solely for cosmetic rewards. We have no proof yet that actual in-game content will be having permanent effect on game world.

    If GW is a sitcom-like (with multiple unconnected and volatile stories) arcade (based on real-world motoric skills), it should not be advertised like a story-based MMORPG, don't yiou think?
    hey can I join in on your game Tackhisis?
    Well RPG stands for role playing game and in just about any game you can play a role so GW2 an rpg along with every other game being an rpg
    also I'm playing Patapon 3... yeah thats an rpg that requires skill and timing (or dumb luck in my case :P)

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    Once you realise that carrots are pointless, you'll realise that you've already been wasting your time.

    Speaking of carrots.
    It was a beautiful analysis on the nature of mmos and players until the last two rows ruined it =_=

  18. #78
    Mechagnome
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    Quote Originally Posted by ita View Post
    Well, with WoW till nearly the end of Wrath the "carrots" worked on me not because of some psychological nonsense but because I could get the heroic raid gear, mix it with some PvP gear and go ganking and do BGs and kill stuff really fast while having moderate survivability. But after Cata made it all about healers and stacking resi I lost all interest in WoW.

    My point is, there need to be rewards that are actually useful for something, other than just looks because the "I'm supposed to get these rewards just because it's the goal of the game" sure isn't working for me and I'm sure for many others if there isn't any reason for it or getting those items doesn't make the game more fun somehow.
    I get where you're comming from, I really do.
    Same mindset I've had for years while playing MMORPGs.

    Yet, it's not the mindset you should approch GW2 with.
    Say that you're gonna play Skyrim or TF2. Which mindsets do you have when you start those games?
    Are the mindset different between the first start up and the fifth? 20th? 40th? ... e tc. You play those game because it's fun. The main drive in Skyrim is that you want to explore the world and see what exists in the nooks and crannies. Same with the overarching GW2 PvE. You'll want to rome the world to find some secrets and see DEs that take place. Some that might only happen once a month after a specific trigger.
    You play TF2 because you want to have fun, maybe because you want to have fun while rubbing other peoples faces in the dirt. This is more on the PvP parts of the ame, but you (well most people) don't play TF2 specifically for the upgrades and hats. Those are part of the game, they are quite fun but the major reason is to kill members of the other team and complete the objectives. You come back to it to get better at it while having fun.

    The goal in the game of GW2 isn't to get the gear rewards. It's to complete the objectives. So, in PvP beat the other team, in PvE save civilization as the world knows it. The gear rewards are just little kicks you get along the way when you complete specific things. And at times those rewards might be an acctual goal, say you find out about a set of gear that looks fantastic. And it might drive you a while until you get it. But approching GW2 from the stand of that the rewards is the goal I'd say is a bit wrong.

  19. #79
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Weerra View Post
    It was a beautiful analysis on the nature of mmos and players until the last two rows ruined it =_=
    Nonsense, Colin makes everything better, especially sword swinging.

  20. #80

    Thumbs down

    Quote Originally Posted by Muzjhath View Post
    I get where you're comming from, I really do.
    Same mindset I've had for years while playing MMORPGs.

    Yet, it's not the mindset you should approch GW2 with.
    Say that you're gonna play Skyrim or TF2. Which mindsets do you have when you start those games?
    Are the mindset different between the first start up and the fifth? 20th? 40th? ... e tc. You play those game because it's fun. The main drive in Skyrim is that you want to explore the world and see what exists in the nooks and crannies. Same with the overarching GW2 PvE. You'll want to rome the world to find some secrets and see DEs that take place. Some that might only happen once a month after a specific trigger.
    You play TF2 because you want to have fun, maybe because you want to have fun while rubbing other peoples faces in the dirt. This is more on the PvP parts of the ame, but you (well most people) don't play TF2 specifically for the upgrades and hats. Those are part of the game, they are quite fun but the major reason is to kill members of the other team and complete the objectives. You come back to it to get better at it while having fun.

    The goal in the game of GW2 isn't to get the gear rewards. It's to complete the objectives. So, in PvP beat the other team, in PvE save civilization as the world knows it. The gear rewards are just little kicks you get along the way when you complete specific things. And at times those rewards might be an acctual goal, say you find out about a set of gear that looks fantastic. And it might drive you a while until you get it. But approching GW2 from the stand of that the rewards is the goal I'd say is a bit wrong.
    Not what we're saying.
    The reward in good items isn't only looking at shinies, like it will be in GW2, but being able to plan out the stats (strengths and weaknesses) of a character and in so doing taking part of the strategic element of RPGs. So it's rewarding, character building, and in a way part of the next challenge as well as the limits of current gear sets part of the difficulty for the next boss. Also, you can't really compare the exploring bit of Skyrim to an MMO and say that's enough of a reward. First, Skyrim is infinitely better looking, being a single-player game, and on top of that all MMO worlds are designed with much more emphasis on balancing the system, limiting the player with instances zones, etc. so don't expect GW2 to come alive and stay alive in that sense. Just like WoW, it will be de-mystified and the spreadsheets will matter more for its survival, only... there won't be any.
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