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  1. #1

    Carrot-On-A-Stick [Rewards]

    Hey,

    I've been reading around the internet about the way the items, dungeons and so forth will work in GW2, and perhaps more importantly, how there is no distinct endgame.

    By all means correct me if I'm wrong, but I gather that the philosophy of ANet when it comes to the longevity of GW2 is that everything you do in the world is always supposed to feel fun and worthwhile. In other words, they don't want the entire world to be something you run past in order to reach the endgame, and then never return to.

    My worry concerns the lack of that distinct reward which you usually have to break your back to get once you've reached the higher levels. I'm by no means a fan of the raiding-model of WoW any longer, but I do realize that it kept me entertained for years in the past as I worked hard to get the best items around. Do you good people think that the dynamic event system and the few different outcomes of each dungeon instance will be enough to provide you with that drive to continue to improve your character and invest yourselves in the world, or will it do the opposite, and make your characters feel more or less pointless in the end?
    "Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.

    Author of: Mount 2.0 (MMO-Champion Thread)
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  2. #2
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    and make your characters feel more or less pointless in the end?
    Once you realise that carrots are pointless, you'll realise that you've already been wasting your time.

    Speaking of carrots.
    Last edited by Mif; 2012-01-01 at 02:12 PM.

  3. #3
    That's also my biggest beef with the WoW-model. But although the raiding gear in WoW is useless in the end, getting it still feels rewarding on a psychological level.
    My fear with GW2 having nothing similar to replace raiding is that there won't be anything to keep me playing and reaching for something, if you catch my drift. Once we've done the dynamic events and 'seen through' them, they might just feel like ordinary quests in WoW--then what?
    "Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.

    Author of: Mount 2.0 (MMO-Champion Thread)
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  4. #4
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    My fear with GW2 having nothing similar to replace raiding is that there won't be anything to keep me playing and reaching for something, if you catch my drift.
    For some insight you can look at Cataclysm.

    At launch there were 2 raids yet people still got bored. In my guild people would log on for raids, then log off the minute we finished and wouldn't be seen again until the next raid time. By contrast, during WOTLK we always had people online. So if all you need is raid content, then what happened?

    What happened was that Cataclysm's major feature was it's update of the old world, the reason being that 70% of trial players were quitting before level 10. A consequence of that design brief was a lack of content development for level capped players. Blizzard solely relied on progression raiding content to keep players happy, and much to their suprise, they found out it takes a lot more to keep level capped players happy than just farming bosses over and over.
    Last edited by Mif; 2012-01-01 at 03:19 PM.

  5. #5
    Brewmaster Neglesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    AWESOME! Made me chuckle :3

  6. #6
    Fluffy Kitten Bloodhunter's Avatar
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    I have a small hunger for Carrots now..

    Not on a stick, just a carrot.

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  7. #7
    The Patient ShamanTankFTW's Avatar
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    Hey OP, I actually had like-wise concerns about end game as well; but to be honest I made a thread about it to voice it and was met with an extreme amount of coherent logic.

    See, the thing is there really is no point for this game to have "end game" content just as long as there is content available through the whole game. I made the mistake of assuming that I would need something to look forward to after I reached max level to keep my interest in tact but then, after reading several posts explaining things to me, realized that this game will (and already does) have a hell of a lot more to offer as soon as you log in for the first time than other games do WITH thier end game content. Everything that you can do when you hit level 80 is available to you at level one; granted some basic exclusions.

    Just don't think of levels in this game as your Dragon Ball Z power-reading (excuse the reference) but instead think of it as your time in service.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    My worry concerns the lack of that distinct reward which you usually have to break your back to get once you've reached the higher levels. I'm by no means a fan of the raiding-model of WoW any longer, but I do realize that it kept me entertained for years in the past as I worked hard to get the best items around. Do you good people think that the dynamic event system and the few different outcomes of each dungeon instance will be enough to provide you with that drive to continue to improve your character and invest yourselves in the world, or will it do the opposite, and make your characters feel more or less pointless in the end?
    people need to expand their thinking; it is no longer this game must conform to my expectations but rather you must conform to the expectations set by the game itself. Stat emphasized games like WoW/Rift/Tor use a carrot to incentivize people to participate in content, GW2 is just taking a different approach use just rarity and appearance and because the approach is different players will have to view incentives in the context of GW2 and not other MMOs that use a different system. there is a lot of "end-game" content in GW2 it is just different than the standard MMO end-game content, that is all.
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  9. #9
    Mechagnome vilhelm1992's Avatar
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    like guildwars 1 the only diff between the high level gear is the looks and difficulty to get... although i have the best stats on armour i can get.. i dont look great and the appeal to get this awesome looking set is actually quite good, i know the appeal of a gear treadmill but going for a set because of how good it looks (and yet how hard to obtain) keeps me entertained and it feels like im doing something to get my character the way i want it, i think the way it works (because you can put various bonuses on armour like + to a stat or more Armour rating less damage taken ect, and you don't want to waste the runes until you feel like you have an Armour set you want to keep, and think this is how it kind of works in GW2.

    Also i remember why Fable 1 was my favorite game, it was fun to play, in wow i could tell i like a class if i'd want to kill mobs i ran past rather then avoid them,in Fable 1, you have your progression getting your character stronger through experience, but it was fairly easy to get the best armour, but what kept me interested after i got everything was playing through the actual game, the only shame about it is that it ended eventually and had nothing to do after i killed the last boss, so would run around destroying villages :P
    Last edited by vilhelm1992; 2012-01-01 at 03:29 PM.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    For some insight you can look at Cataclysm.

    At launch there were 2 raids yet people still got bored. In my guild people would log on for raids, then log off the minute we finished and wouldn't be seen again until the next raid time. By contrast, during WOTLK we always had people online. So if all you need is raid content, then what happened?

    What happened was that Cataclysm's major feature was it's update of the old world, the reason being that 70% of trial players were quitting before level 10. A consequence of that design brief was a lack of content development for level capped players. Blizzard solely relied on progression raiding content to keep players happy, and much to their suprise, they found out it takes a lot more to keep level capped players happy than just farming bosses over and over.
    Well, true, but that doesn't really say anything about raiding in general. Only that Blizzard did a poor job with raiding instances for Cataclysm. There should have been more raids, and more importantly, longer ones. Like Ulduar.

    My fear with GW2 is that they have the same mentality as Blizzard had for Cataclysm, then, and focus too much on the world as opposed to the endgame content, when really a healthy balance would be the best thing--something neither of the two games have.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-01 at 07:14 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ShamanTankFTW View Post
    Hey OP, I actually had like-wise concerns about end game as well; but to be honest I made a thread about it to voice it and was met with an extreme amount of coherent logic.

    See, the thing is there really is no point for this game to have "end game" content just as long as there is content available through the whole game. I made the mistake of assuming that I would need something to look forward to after I reached max level to keep my interest in tact but then, after reading several posts explaining things to me, realized that this game will (and already does) have a hell of a lot more to offer as soon as you log in for the first time than other games do WITH thier end game content. Everything that you can do when you hit level 80 is available to you at level one; granted some basic exclusions.

    Just don't think of levels in this game as your Dragon Ball Z power-reading (excuse the reference) but instead think of it as your time in service.
    While this is true, I'm not referring to raiding per se when I say endgame, but rather something hard to work for. Whether that is good gear, some awesome title/bragging right, or experience which becomes exclusive to those who work hard, I feel there needs to be something.

    Otherwise we'll just have a few million people running around swarming events, no one ever feeling like the better player than others. An example could be the rather rare items that would drop from world bosses in the past (Emerald dragons etc.) that first required you to be a raider, and then took some luck and/or time and hard work to be invested. It gives that sweet feeling when you finally get it.

    I do think good low-to-mid-level content and emphasis on bringing the world to life is very important, but like with all good games design there need to be sweet rewards waiting for those who wants to seek them.
    Last edited by Mojo Risin; 2012-01-01 at 06:17 PM.
    "Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.

    Author of: Mount 2.0 (MMO-Champion Thread)
    Author of: World Enhancement Patch 1.0 (MMO-Champion Thread)

  11. #11
    There are rewards, just not from raiding. There is gear titles and more.

    I don't understand your point?
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    There are rewards, just not from raiding. There is gear titles and more.

    I don't understand your point?

    Afaik (correct me if I'm wrong, here) most gear will stay on about the same level, without epics and such, correct?

    I will try to make my point differently, then. Imagine being in this game world, building your character. You can do a whole lot of things, beat events, stay in touch with the community by doing so, and get a sense of belonging to the world. All of that is fine, and looks very promising in this game.

    But, and here is my entire point, what about the times when I feel like I want to invest some more time into my character and really make it better than the average character? Not merely prettier, or with a more developed personal story, but with more muscle and bragging rights? In WoW (although far from well implemented) this is solved by joining a raiding guild and investing time into farming items, or by gathering ingredients to craft rare and exceptional items.

    What can GW2 offer me in place of that, if I grow weary of merely living in the world and being as good a character as everyone else?

    Is there any awesome gear which is extremely hard to get?
    "Good morning!" said Bilbo, and he meant it. The sun was shining, and the grass was very green. But Gandalf looked at him from under long bushy eyebrows that stuck out farther than the brim of his shady hat.

    Author of: Mount 2.0 (MMO-Champion Thread)
    Author of: World Enhancement Patch 1.0 (MMO-Champion Thread)

  13. #13
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Semi O/T: We really need to sticky something on this subject, because every GW2 noob is always either "QQ no raiding" or "QQ no gear".

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    Semi O/T: We really need to sticky something on this subject, because every GW2 noob is always either "QQ no raiding" or "QQ no gear".
    People won't read it. And since the game differs from the norm, there are a lot of people who are going to be perplexed to be in unfamiliar territory, but slightly interested (or hateful, NEW = BAD/SCARY!). So we get a lot of threads discussing the same topics over and over. Sadly there isn't much you can do about it : /

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    People won't read it.
    Yeah true :/

  16. #16
    Afaik (correct me if I'm wrong, here) most gear will stay on about the same level, without epics and such, correct?
    All gear will have the same stats, the only thing you want from gear will be the actual looks of it.

    I will try to make my point differently, then. Imagine being in this game world, building your character. You can do a whole lot of things, beat events, stay in touch with the community by doing so, and get a sense of belonging to the world. All of that is fine, and looks very promising in this game.

    But, and here is my entire point, what about the times when I feel like I want to invest some more time into my character and really make it better than the average character? Not merely prettier, or with a more developed personal story, but with more muscle and bragging rights? In WoW (although far from well implemented) this is solved by joining a raiding guild and investing time into farming items, or by gathering ingredients to craft rare and exceptional items.
    You are implying that better stats on gear will make your character better, which is just not true, its the stats that are. If you want to invest time in your character then you can, by practicing your toon, learning how to play better, be more responsive to situations, learn your profession inside and out, and just becoming better at playing. Stats give you a false sense of accomplishment.
    Is there any awesome gear which is extremely hard to get?
    You are implying that GW2 will just hand you gear on a silver platter. It won't. Just because there isn't raiding does not mean everything will be easy. The first 8 new dungeons take longer then most raids in WoW do. Not to mention there are quite a few combinations of different encounters/paths you can take in each and every dungeon. Completing this will give that sense of accomplishment because it was time consuming and hard and hey you got a cool looking piece of gear that won't imbalance the game (like wow and rift does). Now why do you need inflating stats on gear again? To make you feel like you worked for it?

    Not to mention there are dynamic events that the whole world can join in on and the boss will scale depending on how many players are present. Not to mention they have some type of mechanic you have to get around on (Giant bone walls you have to break down but first you have to repair the cannons to shoot them down so you can continue to kill the boss).
    Last edited by zito; 2012-01-01 at 06:52 PM.
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by zito View Post
    Now why do you need inflating stats on gear again? To make you feel like you worked for it?
    Yes.
    Because thats how people work, thats why games such as MW and BF are so popular.
    Doing it over and over means you get stronger then others that have spend less time doing the same.
    Just as with WoW and many many other games.

    GW2 might take that incentive away but its a risk, and its a big one.
    Looks only last for a while and then they get boring, not getting any stronger might throw some people off and may very well cause the game to fail.
    Sure some like it, hell some might even buy the game just for that reason, but the majority wins in the end.
    And that majority has been spoonfed power for years, taking that away is harder then it may seem.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Mascotte View Post
    Yes.
    Because thats how people work, thats why games such as MW and BF are so popular.
    Doing it over and over means you get stronger then others that have spend less time doing the same.
    Just as with WoW and many many other games.
    Or it means you get better at it, which makes it go by faster. MW/BF ect. all reward based on time spent, not actual skill, so while it draws a huge crowd it's not very rewarding for many people when they "level up", because they didn't actually have to achieve anything to "level up".

    redit: And why would I want to do the same thing over and over again if it's not fun? Because of the rewards? That's kinda boring IMO : /

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Mascotte View Post
    Yes.
    Because thats how people work, thats why games such as MW and BF are so popular.
    Doing it over and over means you get stronger then others that have spend less time doing the same.
    Just as with WoW and many many other games.

    GW2 might take that incentive away but its a risk, and its a big one.
    Looks only last for a while and then they get boring, not getting any stronger might throw some people off and may very well cause the game to fail.
    Sure some like it, hell some might even buy the game just for that reason, but the majority wins in the end.
    And that majority has been spoonfed power for years, taking that away is harder then it may seem.
    And what happens when you get stronger in terms of gear? Everything becomes too easy and everyone stops playing because there is no challenge. Remove that factor and everything still remains a challenge. All content remains viable unlike WoW. Weather you feel like doing it or not is up to the user but that is for every game.

    You don't need higher stats to make you feel better. You want higher stats because you don't accept change or something different.
    Last edited by zito; 2012-01-01 at 07:09 PM.
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  20. #20
    Fluffy Kitten Bloodhunter's Avatar
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    You can't really compare MMO's to FPS, people stick to their genre's because they like it for countless of reasons.

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