Paladin Gap Closing

[Vuagnon]

Quoted from http://blue.mmo-champion.com/topic/2...in-this-to-me/ Randarion;

I find it very curious that the developers have, for all intents and purposes, decided to keep the same clunky and ill-conceived gap closing model for Paladins that is on any noteworthy inspection a bandaid model that falls far short of what other gap closers are capable of in terms of functionality and efficiency.

But it is not this clearly inefficient model that truely concerns me, it is the decision to give a brand new class a clearly homogenized and effective method of closing gaps when this same argument has ever been leveled against Paladins when they have questioned why they must continue to make do with such an inferior method of gap closing in comparison to most other melee.

The new Monk class is slated to be given the Flying Serpent Kick gap closer, and from all indications this will be implemented baseline. Now call the mechanics by which it accomplishes this what you will, but in the end it is still at it's heart a Charge mechanic, the very same mechanic that the developers have shied away from giving Paladins because 'it is not unique.' And yet, there were apparently no compunctions about giving such a non unique mechanic to a brand new class.

Not only that, but Paladin gap closing has by all indications gotten even worse. The removal of the deadzone and increased duration of LaotL still fails to compensate for the passive 15% speed boost they have lost (while most others have kept theirs interestingly). Furthermore, LAotL as ever remains utterly dependent upon the Acts of Sacrifice talent to even work, as any simple snare will counter the sprint effect.

So in effect, if Ret Paladins wish to have any gap closing capability whatsoever, they MUST take not one but TWO talents to first have access to it and the second just to make it function. And even then, it's effectiveness is still far outstripped by instant gap closer mechanics like Death Grip and the new Flying Serpent Kick, which I should point out need no such talent expenditure to function properly, much less be given access to.

From all the Paladin posts I've read pertaining to this subject, spamming Cleanse just to keep moving is widely despised by the Retribution community as a woefully inefficient and wasteful method of closing gaps and I have to agree. This method of closing gaps is without doubt the most inefficient and ineffectual in the game, and the fact that this bandaid status is still to the developers eyes acceptable when a brand new class is given baseline access to a tried and true mechanic for closing gaps that was too homogenized for Paladins smacks to me of double standards.

I understand a true gap closer could not be implemented for Paladins as long as Cleanse was in place, but have any actual alternatives been considered beyond this woefully ineffectual method? Have you considered giving the class a method of closing gaps that does not keep it utterly dependent on a spam mechanic that the Paladin playerbase largely despises? Cleanse continues to be necessary because the developers have MADE it necessary, how about making it unnecessary?

Finally, Paladins should absolutely NOT be forced to waste almost a quarter of their total talent pool to have a means to close gaps that is still inferior to others. This unfairly penalizes the class in a way that is not shared by any other and sets a standard by which the developers are willingly ignoring their own words on this matter.

I implore the developers to consider this and the example they will be setting by leaving such an inferior tool to Paladins while giving that which they decried as homogenization to the new class without compunction. It will be telling the WoW community that homogenization in fact applies only to Paladins and that active discrimination is taking place against a specific class. I don't make that accusation lightly, but I manifestly do not want to see one class in particular held to such unfair standards when others flourish by the developers direct contradiction. Please consider this.

I'd personally sign this because it brilliantly tells what needs to be said about Paladins and gap closing. Wonder what other people think about this and if the devs willl consider it or not.

[Holtzmann]

I think that guy made a classic mistake when it comes to trying to get a point across to the blues: he pointed out a lot of perceived mistakes, but he didn't suggest any solutions.

Honest question: what would you implement as a gap closer to Ret Paladins that couldn't be used by Prot or Holy and that's not a clone of either Charge or Death Grip?

[Schmilblick]

Honest question: what would you implement as a gap closer to Ret Paladins that couldn't be used by Prot or Holy and that's not a clone of either Charge or Death Grip?

Honest response : class homogenization, every one got something that is taken from another class, so why not give a paladin a gap closer that looks like charge or death grip ?

[Deleted]

Chains of Justice!
I think that one was discussed every expansion

[Nadavv]

Honest question: what would you implement as a gap closer to Ret Paladins that couldn't be used by Prot or Holy and that's not a clone of either Charge or Death Grip?

Honest opinion : why not somthing like charge ? whats wrong with it ?
Melee classes gap closers...
Druids (no metter what spec ofc) has the bear charge , as kitty they even have the kitty charge aswel.
Rogues Shadowstep
warriors Charge Intercept heroic leap (on all 3 specs ofc)
DK's long range silance , Slow effects and DeathGrip
Shammans (as melee) Ghost wolf for faster running, Wolfs (makes him run faster) and ofc he has ALOT of ways to root the target to place.

Paladins ? 4 sec of running fast on judgment (has CD).

my tought of something they can implement is something like Holy (there has to be holy somewhere) charge or blazing light or dosent metter what you'll call it and make it look like a charge but with light on CD or make it even more interasting if you use your judgement on target that is farther then 15yd's from you then you blaze to him instade of the 4sec increased running speed.

All in all there are !@$!@loads of answers and options they can implement if they tought theres a problem with the gap closing but it seems like they dont see it as a problem.

[Johnmatrix]

How about a mix of charge and intervene? Instantly rushes to your target that can be both friendly and enemy. It's not like we don't need a gap opener too. It would be a combination of new and old. And instead of a stun it could reset the cooldown of rebuke or add the 3 second speed of Laotl effect so it would be used for multiple purposes and buff offensive utility. 20-30 sec cooldown.

I hate constant running and i most certainly don't want to rely on it for gap closing. I want an instant gap closer so bad.

[Dundebuns]

Well the addition of reliable gap closers for all melee is something that definitely needs to happen. DK's, Warriors, Rogues (through combined use of stealth and there many mechanics and a low cooldown sprint) and now Monks will all have reliable gap closers. Shaman and Paladins still need a little extra something though.

However, if you're given something completely new, you must be prepared to give up what you already have. Having a charge esque ability, or a chains of ice esque ability, coupled with freedom, stuns, ability to cleanse of your snares and LAotL would be severely OP. Casters need to be able to get away, and with all those tools you'd stick to them like a fat kid on a pizza.

[probert]

Honest question: what would you implement as a gap closer to Ret Paladins that couldn't be used by Prot or Holy and that's not a clone of either Charge or Death Grip?

Why not prot? Prot warriors get intercept, DKs can use deathgrip while tanking, druids have charge.

Holy could get a gap closer too, but why would they want it?

[Vereesa]

Let's compromise! Meet me in the middle. Literally; Make a Charge Death Grip hybrid! It propels you toward the target (just like charge) and at the same time pulls the target at you (like Death Grip), and the movement will only stop once both the player and the offender have met in the middle.

[Holtzmann]

@probert: I specified Ret because that's what the guy was talking about. Prot Warriors have mobility via Warbringer as their shtick, Bear Druids got their Charge because they were originally Prot Warrior-Lite, DKs have Death Grip as part of their theme. So I don't think homogenizing things even further would be good for Paladins. I agree, we need a good way to get to our targets without them getting away, but the game already has enough instant movement mechanics.

I'd settle for an undispellable ability that roots the target for 3 seconds and gives me immunity from movement impairing effects for the duration. Maybe even with a 50% sprint tacked on the end so I'm sure to reach what I want before they run away or at least get a nice speed boost so I can get somewhere else quicker. It would even be helpful in PvE! Ozruk is about to Shatter? Use it on him, get an "immune" from the root but still get the speed boost to the get out of the way. 25-yard range, 30 second cooldown. It's not a charge, it's not a death grip, and I think it fits something we already have in our theme: Hand of Freedom. Call it Hand of Justice or whatever. Enhancement Shamans could get something similar, since we're talking about homogenization and they already have the theme of snaring enemies with the power of Earth/Frost.

Let's compromise! Meet me in the middle. Literally; Make a Charge Death Grip hybrid! It propels you toward the target (just like charge) and at the same time pulls the target at you (like Death Grip), and the movement will only stop once both the player and the offender have met in the middle.

That sounds pretty awesome, actually. But it really has to have a flash, a very loud CLANG and a big damage number floating up at the end of it!

[Deleted]

So 2 ranged stuns, a hand of freedom, and Long Arm of the Law talent isn't enough? Oh yeah you also have divine shield if you didn't manage to kill your target in one try. Quit complaining please..

[Vereesa]

So 2 ranged stuns, a hand of freedom, and Long Arm of the Law talent isn't enough? Oh yeah you also have divine shield if you didn't manage to kill your target in one try. Quit complaining please..

This was my initial reaction as well, but when I picked up my Pally last week and started doing a bit of PvP, I definitely noticed a gargantuan hole in gap closing. So please only give an opinion of such magnitude if you really know what you're talking about.

[Prostyle]

I'm ok with Paladins getting a unique gap closer.

As long as they are willing to part with some other utility they have currently.

However, slice it any way you like but Ret already has a gap closer... Repentance. (Flame inc.)

[Deleted]

I vote paladins get the leap like on LK in ICC with the same animation!!

[Deleted]

in mop our mini-sprint will be up almsot 100% of the time as you will have some base haste and haste reduces cd on judge and the sprint last time i looked had a 4 sec duration and judge's base cd is 6 secs,

10% haste takes it to 5.4
20% haste takes it to 4.8 probably "wait" 0.3 secs after gcd came of to cast this for speed if your chasing s1 so 90% uptime
30% haste takes it to 4.2 global cd bumps it to 4.5 -> almsot 100% uptime at this point

[Vuagnon]

in mop our mini-sprint will be up almsot 100% of the time as you will have some base haste and haste reduces cd on judge and the sprint last time i looked had a 4 sec duration and judge's base cd is 6 secs,

10% haste takes it to 5.4
20% haste takes it to 4.8 probably "wait" 0.3 secs after gcd came of to cast this for speed if your chasing s1 so 90% uptime
30% haste takes it to 4.2 global cd bumps it to 4.5 -> almsot 100% uptime at this point

That still doesn't change the fact that you have to spam cleanse to make it work, which is not only horrible as of design but weaker than any other gap closing mechanic. Like it or not, homogenization as it stands has become an inevitable aspect of this game due to the complexity of class balancing in today's fast PvP action.

[Jonuts]

Honest question: what would you implement as a gap closer to Ret Paladins that couldn't be used by Prot or Holy and that's not a clone of either Charge or Death Grip?

I wouldn't. I'd implement charge or deathgrip. But I don't find problems with occasional ability overlaps. Charge is proven to work. Deathgrip is proven to work. Flying Serpent kick is charge with a different graphic, so will work. Feral charge is proven to work. The guy quoted has a VERY good point however. They don't give us a gap closer so we can be "Different", but monks get a charge. It is somewhat insulting.

[Gringgotts]

I always thought it would be cool to have a heavy damage DoT that would only deal damage if the target moved and the damage would ramp up and reset the duration the more they moved, but they would only have to remain still for 3 seconds to drop the debuff completely.

[Vereesa]

I always thought it would be cool to have a heavy damage DoT that would only deal damage if the target moved and the damage would ramp up and reset the duration the more they moved, but they would only have to remain still for 3 seconds to drop the debuff completely.

You mean like Gushing Wound in Cataclysm beta for warriors?

[zcks]

I think that guy made a classic mistake when it comes to trying to get a point across to the blues: he pointed out a lot of perceived mistakes, but he didn't suggest any solutions.

Honest question: what would you implement as a gap closer to Ret Paladins that couldn't be used by Prot or Holy and that's not a clone of either Charge or Death Grip?

As I have said numerous times there are only 4 ways to solve ret's problems with closing gaps & no one would solve the problem completely.

1: Give it an instant gap closer, something blizzard refuses to even think about.

2: Give the spec a snare, which helps you stay on target once your there but doesn't really help you get there unless it's ranged even then it's sub par to #1 (especially if it can be dispelled).

3: Give the spec better anti kiting abilities, allot of people think this is what's happening next expansion but in reality losing the constant +15% run speed talent cancels out any gain ret got.

4: Increased the specs ability to do deal damage at a range, this is easily done by having art of war always make exorcism instant but not give it's other effects unless it procs. (after that simple tweak the mana cost of exorcism, plus as a bonus there will be no more dead time.)


Since blizzard refuses to even think of #1 a mixture of 2, 3 & 4 is best.

---------- Post added 2012-01-04 at 03:51 PM ----------

That idea along with allot of others like death grip, death strike, deaths advance, shadow step, heroic leap etc... etc... were actually submitted by paladins pre wrath for ideas on how to fix ret.

Sadly blizzard took them all and used them elsewhere.

---------- Post added 2012-01-04 at 03:57 PM ----------

in mop our mini-sprint will be up almsot 100% of the time as you will have some base haste and haste reduces cd on judge and the sprint last time i looked had a 4 sec duration and judge's base cd is 6 secs,

10% haste takes it to 5.4
20% haste takes it to 4.8 probably "wait" 0.3 secs after gcd came of to cast this for speed if your chasing s1 so 90% uptime
30% haste takes it to 4.2 global cd bumps it to 4.5 -> almsot 100% uptime at this point

They changed the CD on the sprint to 3 seconds a while back so at base it's only a 50% up time.

Even then it's horrible compared to an instant gap closer because you must rely on cleanse & hand of freedom to get anywhere.

This is because cleanse can only remove one snare at a time & costs a 2 second GCD, which means you will be constantly trying to cleanse spammed snares.
And also because hand of freedom is easily dispelled by any mage, shaman, priest, hunter, felhunter pet or prot warrior.

So at best the large majority of the time you will be running under 100%.

---------- Post added 2012-01-04 at 03:59 PM ----------

I'm ok with Paladins getting a unique gap closer.

As long as they are willing to part with some other utility they have currently.

However, slice it any way you like but Ret already has a gap closer... Repentance. (Flame inc.)

Repentance & fist of justice in MOP may be decent as a talent however the base line version is still pretty bad since it has a long Cd and can be easily dispelled.

The talent version is slightly better because it can be reapplied over & over, the real down side is you still have to manually run to your target.