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  1. #181
    If your quote from the wiki is to be believed, then what I said applies.

    Another reply awaiting moderation (this is getting annoying)...
    Quote Originally Posted by Socram View Post
    I have to agree that buffs for winning WvWvW, even if being quite minimal, will lead to a lot of server hopping by many hardcore players.
    But I'm fairly sure that ArenaNet is aware of that and able to implement restrictions to prevent such behaviour.

    We should wait for more detailed information about this topic before starting a flamewar about it, imho
    Even if there were some timing restrictions, the problem is not solved, serious players would then hop to the server that is anticipated to win. And even if they get this wrong frequently, it is tacky that the game is set up in such a way that they feel it necessary to attempt this.

    However, what is most striking is the naivety of this amateur design choice.
    Last edited by paralleluniverse; 2012-01-12 at 10:23 AM.

  2. #182
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    Don't feed the troll
    Trolling does not equal posting something that Mif doesn't want to read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Blznsmri View Post
    The benefits only apply to territories within WvWvW areas according to the wiki.
    The excerpt you quoted doesn't actually say that the benefits will only apply to the WvWvW territories. Additionally, Wiki infos always have to be taken with a grain of salt.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    Even if there were some timing restrictions, the problem is not solved, serious players would then hop to the server that is anticipated to win. And even if they get this wrong frequently, it is tacky that the game is set up in such a way that they feel it necessary to attempt this.

    However, what is most striking is the naivety of this amateur design choice.
    You know Server transferring bars your from WvW for a set time period, right?


    Quote Originally Posted by Socram View Post
    Trolling does not equal posting something that Mif doesn't want to read.
    It should now be quite apparent that this is PU is trolling, even if on the basest of levels.
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  4. #184
    I think we need Mif to post some interviews and stuff to assuage our doubting new forum member

    On second thought....his wrench and belt might work better
    Last edited by Squirrelbanes; 2012-01-12 at 10:45 AM. Reason: To reflect the now true situation

  5. #185
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    Balance is worth nothing when the game isn't fair. Nobody would take tennis seriously if whoever paid the umpire for money at the start of the match gets a free set. Nobody would treat SC2 as a serious eSport if you could buy upgrades for your units. The analogies are rather extreme, but the same principle applies.
    This is funny. I'm a UAX in GW1 and I never bought the skill/item packs in the guild wars store. I don't see how anyone who bought stuff has an unfair advantage over me.

  6. #186
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    I was hoping for a release in april / may... i dont think i can wait any longer than that! I'll simply collapse into a heap of deprived and tortured gamer remains :<

  7. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by Blznsmri View Post
    You know Server transferring bars your from WvW for a set time period, right?




    It should now be quite apparent that this is PU is trolling, even if on the basest of levels.
    Did you even read what I wrote? Yes I'm aware that there may be some restrictions, but your post in the wiki says this is a server wide buff, and as I'be said, even if you don't get the buff after recently transferring the problem is still not fixed.

    I'm not trolling. And if you have a substantive argument to make, then make it, instead of wasting our time by calling me a troll. It shows more than anything that you don't have much more substance to add to the discussion. Do you honestly think I spent 5 minutes making an account on this forum, and an hour writing, just to personally troll you? I didn't even know you existed until 2 hours ago.

    I will say things that you disagree with. Deal with it.

    Meeting someone on the internet who doesn't agree with microtransactions, and who understands the MMO game design lessons learned over 7 years of iteration in WoW... utterly unimaginable.

    I came into a GW2 post to talk about GW2, unfortunately some people here have shifted the discussion to talking about trolling, while leaving my points mostly unaddressed.
    Last edited by paralleluniverse; 2012-01-12 at 11:37 AM.

  8. #188
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    Did you even read what I wrote? Yes I'm aware that there may be some restrictions, but your post in the wiki says this is a server wide buff, and as I'be said, even if you don't get the buff after recently transferring the problem is still not fixed.

    I'm not trolling. And if you have a substantive argument to make, then make it, instead of wasting our time by calling me a troll. It shows more than anything that you don't have much more substance to add to the discussion. Do you honestly think I spent 5 minutes making an account on this forum, and an hour writing, just to personally troll you? I didn't even know you existed until 2 hours ago.

    I will say things that you disagree with. Deal with it.

    Meeting someone on the internet who doesn't agree with microtransactions, and who understands the MMO game design lessons learned over 7 years of iteration in WoW... utterly unimaginable.

    I came into a GW2 post to talk about GW2, unfortunately some people here have shifted the discussion to talking about trolling, while leaving my points mostly unaddressed.
    I rechecked what you said about the WvWvW, and I cannot find anything about buffs when a server wins a WvWvW, only when a server holds certain positions on WvWvW, so if this is true, that would mean switching servers will be useless, because if you switch a server and 10 minutes later your old server could have retaken the buff, AND you cannot participate in WvWvW anymore.

    I'm wondering what exactly it is that you've learned. What Micro-Transactions are so wrong?

    In Guild Wars 1 you can buy costumes or special skin weapons for your own benefit, for others. Also you can buy skill packs, so... why isn't this unfair? Because everyone in the game, who has all the games and the expansion, should be able to get every thing as well, not in the same speed as that person, but that's for him/her to decide. If that person wants to spend (How much is it? 15 euro, 20 euro's) for skills. Let them, focus on your own game to get the skills your way, and not stare at others.. pff you bought it, you has advantage harharhar.

    To continue on micro-transactions, did you ever take a look at the Blizzard Store? Multiple Mounts/Companions on there, these are 15-20 euro's as well. And also called Micro-transactions. These will add-on to your achievement progress. This is exactly no difference between the 2 games.

    GW2, proves that it can survive on box-sales and micro-transations and still provide a good customers service and support. That's what they did for GW1, and that's what they will do in GW2.

    If you don't believe, you are nothing more than a skeptic with too much weight hanging on his own opinion, and I'm not telling you that's a bad thing, I'm just telling you to open your eyes and look beyond the horizon.



    EDIT: As an addition to my post, switched realm/servers will make you lose your guild and such as well, and I'm wondering how many people would switch servers just to get some small buffs they could lose in a few minutes again.
    Last edited by Bloodhunter; 2012-01-12 at 11:50 AM.

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  9. #189
    Just wanted to say how wonderful the opening post in this thread is.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  10. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodhunter View Post
    I rechecked what you said about the WvWvW, and I cannot find anything about buffs when a server wins a WvWvW, only when a server holds certain positions on WvWvW, so if this is true, that would mean switching servers will be useless, because if you switch a server and 10 minutes later your old server could have retaken the buff, AND you cannot participate in WvWvW anymore.

    I'm wondering what exactly it is that you've learned. What Micro-Transactions are so wrong?

    In Guild Wars 1 you can buy costumes or special skin weapons for your own benefit, for others. Also you can buy skill packs, so... why isn't this unfair? Because everyone in the game, who has all the games and the expansion, should be able to get every thing as well, not in the same speed as that person, but that's for him/her to decide. If that person wants to spend (How much is it? 15 euro, 20 euro's) for skills. Let them, focus on your own game to get the skills your way, and not stare at others.. pff you bought it, you has advantage harharhar.

    To continue on micro-transactions, did you ever take a look at the Blizzard Store? Multiple Mounts/Companions on there, these are 15-20 euro's as well. And also called Micro-transactions. These will add-on to your achievement progress. This is exactly no difference between the 2 games.

    GW2, proves that it can survive on box-sales and micro-transations and still provide a good customers service and support. That's what they did for GW1, and that's what they will do in GW2.

    If you don't believe, you are nothing more than a skeptic with too much weight hanging on his own opinion, and I'm not telling you that's a bad thing, I'm just telling you to open your eyes and look beyond the horizon.



    EDIT: As an addition to my post, switched realm/servers will make you lose your guild and such as well, and I'm wondering how many people would switch servers just to get some small buffs they could lose in a few minutes again.
    It makes no practical difference whether a world buff is gained through control or gained through winning. If it's gained through control, then serious players will gravitate towards the better server, like how the Illidan server is the largest US WoW server with 33,000 players and a 100:1 (I'm serious) Horde to Alliance ratio. But it would be much worse in GW2 because transferring is free and without consequence.

    When I was referring to the design lessons learned from 7 years of iterating on WoW, I was referring to this. Blizzard would never let a PvP or zone-wide buff work in PvE. There are many zone-wide buffs in WoW, none of them work in PvE. Blizzard isn't naive enough to think competitive players won't feel obligated to do everything possible to gain an advantage. In fact, Blizzard has systemically removed buffs that competitive players were obligated to get, such as the UBRS fire resistance buff used in BWL, back in Classic WoW, to discourage this sort of tacky gameplay. A zone-wide buff of the kind planned for GW2, earned through PvP, encourages server hopping, tacky gameplay, and needlessly adds a nontrivial RNG factor into PvE success.

    I'm well aware that WoW has a microtransactions store. At one point it was purely cosmetic, then the Guardian Cub came, which can be used to buy gold for real money and in turn, epic gems, BoE epics, etc. And I quit WoW, only because of it. However, the GW1 microtransactions are not purely cosmetic. In GW1, ArenaNet sells spells and PvP packs. ArenaNet can claim that all microtransactions are just superficial, but just like in GW1, that disclaimer encompasses the act of paying for easy and quick access to things that can be found in game by other means, like spells and PvP items. So really that encompasses everything, from more bag slots to the best piece of gear in the game or the most prestigious titles and achievements, they all just take time. On microtransactions, their actions speak louder than words.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodhunter View Post
    I still play WoW and I experience the same, horrible H/A ratio, what does Blizzard do about it, absolutely nothing. I'd like you to give me some prove that server transfers are without consequence, then I'll get back to that.

    Also, who in the world ever said the buffs are buffs for PvE? No one ever even said that. Notable buffs are; higher drops rates/more gold drops and discount on NPC's (these are a few examples) and no one said this was for PvE. WvWvW has vendors which then gives the discount, there are world mobs in WvWvW which then gives better loot and more gold, there are herbs/mining nodes which then gives better loot. No one even said stuff about PvE, and if they did, it's not confirmed to work for PvE as well, if it was I'd like to see some information about it.

    Yes they do, and there is nothing wrong with it, because you can always obtain it your way, someone else doesn't buy spells which are stronger than the ones you can obtain in game just because he bought them. It's not giving people a better advantage, it's letting them progress faster towards their end-goal for their purposes. You do it your way, they will do it their way. But no one is 'better' then the other.

    About selling more bag-slots yes, it happens and just because you find it a bad thing, doesn't mean it IS a bad thing, as like you try to convince here. There's is nothing wrong with; "I don't like them selling more slots or bigger bags, because people can earn stuff quicker than they suppose to do". Then I would give it to you that I could see where you're coming from. But now, you're just trying to tell everyone how bad it is, it's not.

    Micro-transactions will just be cosmetic additions, perhaps miniatures, costumes and not confirmed bigger bank slots (or more slots). If people want that, go ahead, not my position to judge them. The game resides on box buyers and micro-transactions, and with the quality GW2 has I'd take Micro-transactions over monthly fee's any day.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-12 at 01:35 PM ----------



    Because people can sell them for in-game gold, countering the gold-sellers.
    I never claimed that Blizzard has gotten everything right. In fact, server transfers and particularly faction transfers have been an utter disaster from a faction balance point of view. Another thing Blizzard hasn't gotten right is world PvP. It should be obvious from WoW Classic and TBC that a workable and well-integrated world PvP system should be a rewardless one. Like Blizzard, ArenaNet also hasn't learned this.

    But it's sad to see the things that Blizzard did get right, not originally, but painfully through changes to failed ideas and iterating on the game over 7 years, completely forgotten and ignored, as is the case with the WvWvW buff.

    In post #175, someone quotes the wiki showing the buff is useful for PvE. As for transferring being without consequence, it says that in the OP, there is no cost associated with it. And as I've already explained, preventing recent transfers from benefiting from the buff won't fix the problem.

    By invoking the "you can obtain it your way" argument, it would be acceptable for ArenaNet to sell the best items in the game because you can obtain it your way by painstakingly beating the hardest encounters in the game or you can pay $15. And this is EXACTLY the reason why I won't be playing GW2: because everything ArenaNet has done in GW1 suggests that they are open to the possibility of selling the best items in the game for exactly this reason. Based on their actions in GW1, the word "superficial" that they used to describe microtransactions is a catch-all, because it includes anything that can be obtained in game with time, like spells, PvP items, ..., and the best gear in the game.

    Countering gold-sellers? No, becoming gold-sellers themselves.

    I have no problem with paying $20 a month, or even $30 a month, for a MMO, but I will not partake in this so-called "competitive" game turned into a farce by ArenaNet's history of unfair, non-vanity, and "superficial" microtransactions.


    Quote Originally Posted by nektar View Post
    I don't think Anet ever claimed that GW1's microtransactions were solely cosmetic. They only stated that GW2's will be.

    As for GW1 store, you are right, they did sell things that gave players an edge over others, such as the mercenary system and extra bank slots (both only useful in PvE), but the items you did mention (the PvP pack/skill pack) are superficial, anyone who has ever played GW1 knows this. Those packs were for people who are much too lazy to farm Balthazar points for 30mins just to buy a full build. If I were to think of an advantage those packs would give, it would be for those players who are more or less experienced in GW PvP, and they wouldn't need it because they would probably be swimming in Balth points already. Giving a new player those packs would be like giving a WoW newbie lvl 85, full decked out char and letting him play an arena match. He is gonna get his ass handed to him despite all the "advantages" he has.
    Give a newbie mage a Tarecgosa's Rest, he will get owned in PvP. Like the spells and PvP gear that is sold in GW1 and the mercenaries, as you said, Tarecgosa's Rest is just as superficial as all of the above, it all just takes time. Don't want to farm Eternal Embers and Seething Cinders? In GW2, you might be in luck.
    Last edited by paralleluniverse; 2012-01-12 at 01:57 PM.

  11. #191
    But we don't know all the details about the system yet. How then can we make definitive judgements?

    A thread that was made to provide concrete information shouldn't be used for suppostion.

  12. #192
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    Hot exactly is the Guardian Cub not cosmetic?

  13. #193
    Epic!
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    Amazing thread. Brilliant work kind sir.
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  14. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Socram View Post
    Hot exactly is the Guardian Cub not cosmetic?
    Not the subject of this thread. But briefly, it can be used to buy gold for real money, gold can in turn be used to buy, epic gems, BoE epics, etc.

  15. #195
    Fluffy Kitten Bloodhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    It makes no practical difference whether a world buff is gained through control or gained through winning. If it's gained through control, then serious players will gravitate towards the better server, like how the Illidan server is the largest US WoW server with 33,000 players and a 100:1 (I'm serious) Horde to Alliance ratio. But it would be much worse in GW2 because transferring is free and without consequence.

    When I was referring to the design lessons learned from 7 years of iterating on WoW, I was referring to this. Blizzard would never let a PvP or zone-wide buff work in PvE. There are many zone-wide buffs in WoW, none of them work in PvE. Blizzard isn't naive enough to think competitive players won't feel obligated to do everything possible to gain an advantage. In fact, Blizzard has systemically removed buffs that competitive players were obligated to get, such as the UBRS fire resistance buff used in BWL, back in Classic WoW to discourage this sort of tacky gameplay. A zone-wide buff earned through PvP encourages of the kind planned for GW2 encourages server hopping, tacky gameplay, and needlessly adds a nontrivial RNG factor into PvE success.

    I'm well aware that WoW has a microtransactions store. At one point it was purely cosmetic, then the Guardian Cub came, and that changed. And that's when I quit WoW because of it. However, the GW1 microtransactions are not purely cosmetic. In GW1, ArenaNet sells spells and PvP packs. ArenaNet can claim that all microtransactions are just superficial, but just like in GW1, that disclaimer encompasses buying your way to more quickly getting things that can be obtained in game, like spells and PvP items. So really that encompasses everything, from more bag slots to the best piece of gear in the game or the most prestigious titles and achievements, they all just take time. Their actions speak louder than words.
    I still play WoW and I experience the same, horrible H/A ratio, what does Blizzard do about it, absolutely nothing. I'd like you to give me some prove that server transfers are without consequence, then I'll get back to that.

    Also, who in the world ever said the buffs are buffs for PvE? No one ever even said that. Notable buffs are; higher drops rates/more gold drops and discount on NPC's (these are a few examples) and no one said this was for PvE. WvWvW has vendors which then gives the discount, there are world mobs in WvWvW which then gives better loot and more gold, there are herbs/mining nodes which then gives better loot. No one even said stuff about PvE, and if they did, it's not confirmed to work for PvE as well, if it was I'd like to see some information about it.

    Yes they do, and there is nothing wrong with it, because you can always obtain it your way, someone else doesn't buy spells which are stronger than the ones you can obtain in game just because he bought them. It's not giving people a better advantage, it's letting them progress faster towards their end-goal for their purposes. You do it your way, they will do it their way. But no one is 'better' then the other.

    About selling more bag-slots yes, it happens and just because you find it a bad thing, doesn't mean it IS a bad thing, as like you try to convince here. There's is nothing wrong with; "I don't like them selling more slots or bigger bags, because people can earn stuff quicker than they suppose to do". Then I would give it to you that I could see where you're coming from. But now, you're just trying to tell everyone how bad it is, it's not.

    Micro-transactions will just be cosmetic additions, perhaps miniatures, costumes and not confirmed bigger bank slots (or more slots). If people want that, go ahead, not my position to judge them. The game resides on box buyers and micro-transactions, and with the quality GW2 has I'd take Micro-transactions over monthly fee's any day.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-12 at 01:35 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Socram View Post
    Hot exactly is the Guardian Cub not cosmetic?
    Because people can sell them for in-game gold, countering the gold-sellers.

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  16. #196
    Bloodsail Admiral mirodin's Avatar
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    Nice post finally something nice to read on MMO-Champ. I'm looking to learn more about GW2, so i have some questions but i doubt they can be answered at this time. I'll ask anyway.
    Regarding the active combat, while it sounds awesome that you can have full control over how it plays i can't help but wonder if its gonna be bad (for a lack of a better word) for people with high latency. We know that not everyone can play with <50 ms. Is there any info on how combat will play based on latency?
    It's coming in 1.2!!!

  17. #197
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirodin View Post
    Nice post finally something nice to read on MMO-Champ. I'm looking to learn more about GW2, so i have some questions but i doubt they can be answered at this time. I'll ask anyway.
    Regarding the active combat, while it sounds awesome that you can have full control over how it plays i can't help but wonder if its gonna be bad (for a lack of a better word) for people with high latency. We know that not everyone can play with <50 ms. Is there any info on how combat will play based on latency?
    Unfortunately I don't think we'll know until open beta.

  18. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    *snip*
    Well, you are asumming things about GW2 that we don't know yet. But even if WvW buffs were server-wide and ArenaNet would allow server hopping, I'm pretty sure they will put something in place to stop exploitation. Like someone else said, if you hop to the winning server the most-likely scenario will be is that you wont get anything.
    Anyway, I digress, we don't know yet for sure, I'd wait for it until it's released to objectively state opinions.

    About microtransactions: again, you are claiming your point of view above everyone else. Above the truth, even. And making wrong comparisons too. Leauge of Legends also offers microtransactions that wont affect gameplay that are comparable to GW1. You can buy champions, runes and skins with real money, but you can get all of those things (but skins) by just playing. I've got like half the champions and never spent a dollar.
    And this is exactly the same in GW1, like many others have pointed out that you are failing to understand. It doesn't give you any advantage over others, you just get ther same stuff only quickier. Is that really game-breaking? I mean, on other MMOs and games you can buy everything with microtransactions and also items you can't get anywhere else, leaving free to play users with a major disadvantage.

    Now, let's stop using our points of view as facts and focus on the facts.

  19. #199
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodhunter View Post
    I still play WoW and I experience the same, horrible H/A ratio, what does Blizzard do about it, absolutely nothing. I'd like you to give me some prove that server transfers are without consequence, then I'll get back to that.

    Also, who in the world ever said the buffs are buffs for PvE? No one ever even said that. Notable buffs are; higher drops rates/more gold drops and discount on NPC's (these are a few examples) and no one said this was for PvE. WvWvW has vendors which then gives the discount, there are world mobs in WvWvW which then gives better loot and more gold, there are herbs/mining nodes which then gives better loot. No one even said stuff about PvE, and if they did, it's not confirmed to work for PvE as well, if it was I'd like to see some information about it.

    Yes they do, and there is nothing wrong with it, because you can always obtain it your way, someone else doesn't buy spells which are stronger than the ones you can obtain in game just because he bought them. It's not giving people a better advantage, it's letting them progress faster towards their end-goal for their purposes. You do it your way, they will do it their way. But no one is 'better' then the other.

    About selling more bag-slots yes, it happens and just because you find it a bad thing, doesn't mean it IS a bad thing, as like you try to convince here. There's is nothing wrong with; "I don't like them selling more slots or bigger bags, because people can earn stuff quicker than they suppose to do". Then I would give it to you that I could see where you're coming from. But now, you're just trying to tell everyone how bad it is, it's not.

    Micro-transactions will just be cosmetic additions, perhaps miniatures, costumes and not confirmed bigger bank slots (or more slots). If people want that, go ahead, not my position to judge them. The game resides on box buyers and micro-transactions, and with the quality GW2 has I'd take Micro-transactions over monthly fee's any day.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-12 at 01:35 PM ----------



    Because people can sell them for in-game gold, countering the gold-sellers.
    I never claimed that Blizzard has gotten everything right. In fact, server transfers and particularly faction transfers have been an utter disaster from the faction balance point of view. Another thing Blizzard hasn't gotten right is world PvP. It should be obvious from WoW Classic and TBC that s workable and well-integrated world PvP system should be a rewardless one. Like Blizzard, GW2 also hasn't learned this.

    But it's sad to see the things that Blizzard did get right, not originally, but painfully through changes to failed ideas and iterating on the game over 7 years, completely forgotten and ignored, as is the case with the WvWvW buff.

    In post #175, someone quotes the wiki showing the buff is useful for PvE.

    By invoking the "you can obtain it your way" argument, it would be acceptable for ArenaNet to sell the best items in the game because you can obtain it your way by painstakingly beating the hardest encounters in the game or you can pay $15. And this is EXACTLY the reason why I won't be playing GW2: because everything ArenaNet has said and done suggests they are open to the possibility of selling the best items in the game for exactly this reason.

  20. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by paralleluniverse View Post
    I'm well aware that WoW has a microtransactions store. At one point it was purely cosmetic, then the Guardian Cub came, and that changed. And I quit WoW, only because of it. However, the GW1 microtransactions are not purely cosmetic. In GW1, ArenaNet sells spells and PvP packs. ArenaNet can claim that all microtransactions are just superficial, but just like in GW1, that disclaimer encompasses the act of paying for easy and quick access to things that can be found in game by other means, like spells and PvP items. So really that encompasses everything, from more bag slots to the best piece of gear in the game or the most prestigious titles and achievements, they all just take time. On microtransactions, their actions speak louder than words.
    I don't think Anet ever claimed that GW1's microtransactions were solely cosmetic. They only stated that GW2's will be.

    As for GW1 store, you are right, they did sell things that gave players an edge over others, such as the mercenary system and extra bank slots (both only useful in PvE), but the items you did mention (the PvP pack/skill pack) are superficial, anyone who has ever played GW1 knows this. Those packs were for people who are much too lazy to farm Balthazar points for 30mins just to buy a full build. If I were to think of an advantage those packs would give, it would be for those players who are more or less experienced in GW PvP, and they wouldn't need it because they would probably be swimming in Balth points already. Giving a new player those packs would be like giving a WoW newbie lvl 85, full decked out char and letting him play an arena match. He is gonna get his ass handed to him despite all the "advantages" he has.

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