Leaving Combat in Arena.

[Pascal]

People who are capable of outplaying someone 1v1 and getting out of combat to drink and eat deserve to beat someone who can't keep them in combat. Are you serious? All it takes to keep someone from drinking and/or eating is attacking them. or, not even, just debuffing them. Anything. I've never had a situation where I could not keep someone in combat unless they were a rogue or druid that managed to get away long enough to stealth. If you can't run up to someone and keep them in combat, you deserve to lose.

[Feranor]

The problem is not 'getting out of combat', the problem is Rogues and Mages having a truckload of reset abilities.

[Deleted]

In the current state, proper kiting techniques, pillar humping, and proper use of CD's allows players to escape combat to drink, eat, buy time, and reset CD's

Sounds like you just got outplayed.

That´s basically what being skilled in arenas is about.

We could just have arenas where both players get dummies with a set ammount of health and the team that kills their dummy first wins, but thats no fun is it?

[Judgejoebrwn]

That´s basically what being skilled in arenas is about.

It is? See, I always thought using your ABILITIES as a class spec to CC and damage opponents to see who is better was the point of arena, not who can run around a pillar the fastest. This ain't ring around the rosey, it's a fight. The idea of getting out of combat to drink/eat/buy time for CD's was invented by the community. Players who are unable to win (important phrase there) abusing techniques to reset a fight so they can win. If you're unable to win, you should be unable to win. The best players will find away without resorting to such tactics.

A warlock portal, for instance, it designed to create distance for a class that has historically has very few escape tools. It was NOT designed to be placed at the top of a bridge out of LoS so not only could you create distance from melee, you're out of LoS of ranged AND you force the melee to chase your ass up a ramp while getting the shit kicked out of them. However, because it's possible, players will do it. Ever try to heal a beaconed target that's out of LoS? Doesn't work. Why are locks allowed to port out of LoS?

We could just have arenas where both players get dummies with a set ammount of health and the team that kills their dummy first wins, but thats no fun is it?

That's just silly. The dummy doesn't fight back. But then again, neither do these players that run and hide for 2-3 minutes for their special CD's. They only fight on THEIR terms, when we're supposed to be fighting on Blizzard's/the arena's terms.

[Deleted]

It is? See, I always thought using your ABILITIES as a class spec to CC and damage opponents to see who is better was the point of arena, not who can run around a pillar the fastest. This ain't ring around the rosey, it's a fight. The idea of getting out of combat to drink/eat/buy time for CD's was invented by the community. Players who are unable to win (important phrase there) abusing techniques to reset a fight so they can win. If you're unable to win, you should be unable to win. The best players will find away without resorting to such tactics.

A warlock portal, for instance, it designed to create distance for a class that has historically has very few escape tools. It was NOT designed to be placed at the top of a bridge out of LoS so not only could you create distance from melee, you're out of LoS of ranged AND you force the melee to chase your ass up a ramp while getting the shit kicked out of them. However, because it's possible, players will do it. Ever try to heal a beaconed target that's out of LoS? Doesn't work. Why are locks allowed to port out of LoS?



That's just silly. The dummy doesn't fight back. But then again, neither do these players that run and hide for 2-3 minutes for their special CD's. They only fight on THEIR terms, when we're supposed to be fighting on Blizzard's/the arena's terms.

"Why are locks allowed to port out of LoS?" - Are you serious?

It's all about fighting on THEIR terms. When a hunter fights a rogue - they both want to fight on THEIR terms. The hunter at range and the rogue up close. This post boggles my brain.

It might be an argument to say mages/rogues have too /many/ ways to get out of combat like this - but the fact they can is something that is definitely part of what arena is about.

[Kreeshak]

"Why are locks allowed to port out of LoS?" - Are you serious?

It's all about fighting on THEIR terms. When a hunter fights a rogue - they both want to fight on THEIR terms. The hunter at range and the rogue up close. This post boggles my brain.

It might be an argument to say mages/rogues have too /many/ ways to get out of combat like this - but the fact they can is something that is definitely part of what arena is about.

says who? From my point of view it is time arena was more honourable than that.

[Deleted]

People who are capable of outplaying someone 1v1 and getting out of combat to drink and eat deserve to beat someone who can't keep them in combat. Are you serious? All it takes to keep someone from drinking and/or eating is attacking them. or, not even, just debuffing them. Anything. I've never had a situation where I could not keep someone in combat unless they were a rogue or druid that managed to get away long enough to stealth. If you can't run up to someone and keep them in combat, you deserve to lose.

You deserve to lose because my class can reset on you.

Cloak of shadows + Vanish + Eat in stealth behind a tree -> Sprint/shadowstep + sap and interrupt you eating = SKILL


No, i agree with the person saying that there's no skill involved, that it's an abuse to classes that are given ways to reset fights. Not all classes can do it and they aren't less skilled and "deserve to lose" for it. Wouldn't surprise me if you're one of those that play like this with one of these classes.

[Judgejoebrwn]

"Why are locks allowed to port out of LoS?" - Are you serious?

It's all about fighting on THEIR terms. When a hunter fights a rogue - they both want to fight on THEIR terms. The hunter at range and the rogue up close. This post boggles my brain.

I will rephrase to hopefully better illustrate my point.

Rogues/Mages can decide voluntarily when they are ready to engage an enemy. Feral druids to some degree as well. Not ready to fight? No problem. Stay in stealth a bit longer, sap the guy as he grabs truesight and pillar hump until it wears off (shit should last indefinitely, rather than 12 seconds). Or as a mage, I'll just nova you until you literally freeze in your own computer chair or sheep you until you feel like a helpless critter IRL while I casually escape behind a pillar to eat up to full HP and invis.

Not ready to fight as ANY other class spec? Tough shit. As a rogue/mage, I'll make the decision. It should never be left up to a player, regardless what class or spec, to decide when he/she feels like fighting. It's an arena. You're a gladiator (of history, not ranking). You're here fighting because you were told to (or want to be). FIGHT! Pansies shouldn't be allowed (my apologies if that's offensive to anyone, but it serves the point).

Once again, thanks for being civil in your posts. More opinions please.

[Jyubei]

The idea of fairness and still wanting diversity/variety of the classes/specs is impossible to accomplish. If every class were exactly the same in every way then yeah you'd balance it easily and it would all be player-skill based.

Unfortunately like almost any situation in any video game there is a superior method/class/character/weapon/etc and there are either those who take advantage of that method and win - or those that lose then whine about it. Some can win without using those things but it's rare and way more difficult. You'll have to come up with specific strats to beat these people and if you cannot then you'll merely need to accept the fact that you can't compete against them. There's no shame in avoiding a fight you know you won't win.

There will never be any true balance unless we're all exactly the same. Balance is just a mythical word in any other scenario that is completely unobtainable.

And this is coming from someone who doesn't even PvP. My problem with PvP is that it's much too slow paced for me. I prefer the quickness and personal control of a FPS match and not worrying about whether the game will decide that I get hit with an unlucky string of crits. Plus there's no active dodging or avoiding it's all %/roll based and it's completely boring when those things are out of the player's control. I wanna be able to side step an inc frostbolt for example. So I steer clear of PvP.

[PizzaSHARK]

Sorry arena isn't going to get overturned so that your prot warrior can win 1v1s? The true sight eyes are enough.

Drinking and restealthing can be stopped and are a part of the game.

It's very easy for a rogue to hang out near the true sight eyes to sap/stun someone near them, and true sight eyes don't do much if you can't get LOS on the rogue - that might have been problematic previously with stealthed movement being so much slower, but now that it's as fast as regular movement (why?), it's not a big concern.

I agree on the drinking bit - managing your mana properly should be a key point of playing a mana user. You shouldn't be able to drink/eat in arenas. I'm fine with being able to drop combat, but food and drink really shouldn't be allowed.

---------- Post added 2012-01-06 at 11:10 PM ----------

"Why are locks allowed to port out of LoS?" - Are you serious?

It's all about fighting on THEIR terms. When a hunter fights a rogue - they both want to fight on THEIR terms. The hunter at range and the rogue up close. This post boggles my brain.

It might be an argument to say mages/rogues have too /many/ ways to get out of combat like this - but the fact they can is something that is definitely part of what arena is about.

So then what does that mean for everyone that isn't a mage or a rogue? That they're forced to play how the mage and/or rogue decide they should play? Why not just restrict arenas to only mages and rogues, if that's "definitely part of what arena is about"?

[Bakis]

Not drinking? So you have a resource rage, focus, energy which will never run out.

Yet casters need to get starved with no way of getting their resource back apart from a cooldown every 5+ mins (that can be interrupted).
Yup let everyone with a manabar have it much harder in long battles. Stupidest idea ever.

[Illana]

Not drinking? So you have a resource rage, focus, energy which will never run out.

Yet casters need to get starved with no way of getting their resource back apart from a cooldown every 5+ mins (that can be interrupted).
Yup let everyone with a manabar have it much harder in long battles. Stupidest idea ever.

Mages have mage armour which restores 4% of MAXIMUM mana every 5 seconds, mages cannot oom.

Warlocks have something called life tap which restores a massive amount of mana at the cost of health. They also have soul harvest which restores almost their entire hp.

Boomkins restore 20% of their max mana every time they reach an eclipse and also have innervate

elemental shamans restore mana when using lightning bolt or chain lightning while lightning shield is active.

shadowpriests restore 45% of their mana when dispersing and SW restores mana.

Ret paladins restore mana when judging.

Evo is 3 minute cooldown and most mages use it to heal not restore mana.

Rogue's drink to restore health as I'm sure you're aware they do not have a manabar.

For someone with almost 4k posts you are pretty clueless, but then again postcount != knowledge.

[Deleted]

For some reason I feel this thread goes to people like me...
Mounting or leaving combat in general is ok imo. If you can't prevent it then you're supposed to lose I think.

[Kreeshak]

For some reason I feel this thread goes to people like me...
Mounting or leaving combat in general is ok imo. If you can't prevent it then you're supposed to lose I think.

The point of those who are against leaving combat and resetting, is that some classes do not have the means to prevent it. It is not an issue of playing bad therefore deserving to lose. If you'd give those classes the means to prevent it, then nobody would complain.

[PizzaSHARK]

The point of those who are against leaving combat and resetting, is that some classes do not have the means to prevent it. It is not an issue of playing bad therefore deserving to lose. If you'd give those classes the means to prevent it, then nobody would complain.

Agreed. Two classes (mage and rogue) have an extremely easy time escaping combat to regenerate. Some classes (warriors, in particular) do not, or do not gain very much from escaping combat.

If you want "it's okay to get out of combat/eat" to stay in the game, then all classes need to have an equal amount of tools to do so.

Since that would probably make the game really, really dumb (imagine if warriors had the escape tools rogues have), I think the better solution is to simply make combat permanent once you enter it in arenas. This doesn't really apply to RBGs, since RBGs work differently (if you really need mana you can always just go die.)

[Judgejoebrwn]

Agreed. Two classes (mage and rogue) have an extremely easy time escaping combat to regenerate. Some classes (warriors, in particular) do not, or do not gain very much from escaping combat.

If you want "it's okay to get out of combat/eat" to stay in the game, then all classes need to have an equal amount of tools to do so.

Since that would probably make the game really, really dumb (imagine if warriors had the escape tools rogues have), I think the better solution is to simply make combat permanent once you enter it in arenas. This doesn't really apply to RBGs, since RBGs work differently (if you really need mana you can always just go die.)

Glad to see someone agrees with me almost down to the letter.

And again, I would agree under that new model that Rogues/Druids/Mages could use some alterations to some of their abilities to allow similar functionality and make the transition less devastating. I really think, though, the experience in arena would be much better all around.

[PizzaSHARK]

Glad to see someone agrees with me almost down to the letter.

And again, I would agree under that new model that Rogues/Druids/Mages could use some alterations to some of their abilities to allow similar functionality and make the transition less devastating. I really think, though, the experience in arena would be much better all around.

It'd be nice if Rogues (and Mages, to a much lesser extent) didn't get so many "Get Out of Jail Free" cards. As it is, with Prep resetting cooldowns on escape abilities, Rogues can pretty much get a do-over twice against any enemy setup, and more than twice if they're able to break combat for a restealth, or have racial abilities that assist them (Stoneform to break dots, Shadowmeld for another poor man's Vanish, etc.)

Fighting competent Rogues is exceptionally frustrating - even if you find yourself getting the upper hand, they can just walk away from the fight whenever the mood takes them and there's absolutely nothing you can do about it.

[Eon Drache]

I agree on the context of Stealth and Invis. So annoying to have a Rogue sap you, beat your partner, stealth, sap again, reset everything while you're sitting there with your trinket now on CD feeling like you're a spectator and not involved in the actual fight.

[yakebento]

So you want the game tuned so your "screwing-around" comp becomes viable?

[Deleted]

It's very easy for a rogue to hang out near the true sight eyes to sap/stun someone near them, and true sight eyes don't do much if you can't get LOS on the rogue - that might have been problematic previously with stealthed movement being so much slower, but now that it's as fast as regular movement (why?), it's not a big concern.

Right, so the rogue is trying to los you while u have shadowsight. he's out of combat, guess what! you are too! so you mount up, and since last time i checked rogues don't have 100% increased speed in stealth so if you're still having trouble pulling them out of combat/stealth on a 100% mount.. then it's definitly a player issue.

It's amazing reading this thread.. Seriously, you even have a ret complaining about self healing.. the class that can chuck out 80k+ instant Word of glorys. Then you have people whining about shadowmeld enabling people to get a restealth with no problems, yet shadowmeld only works while standing still. see someone shadowmeld in a spot? they're still there.

---------- Post added 2012-01-08 at 07:52 AM ----------

Not ready to fight as ANY other class spec? Tough shit. As a rogue/mage, I'll make the decision. It should never be left up to a player, regardless what class or spec, to decide when he/she feels like fighting. It's an arena. You're a gladiator (of history, not ranking). You're here fighting because you were told to (or want to be). FIGHT! Pansies shouldn't be allowed (my apologies if that's offensive to anyone, but it serves the point).

Once again, thanks for being civil in your posts. More opinions please.

In your ideal WoW world you'd want all classes/specs to be the same? Hate to break it to you but that would ruin the game. i really feel sorry for blizzard devs, they hear people whine about not having this ability or that ability, they give them it and then they get accused of making everyone the same. Each class offers pros/cons, some classes counter others, it's what makes each arena game different to the last.

It seems you want arena to be something where 2/3/5 people run in and hit eachother while standing there while occasionly cc'ing one of the opponents. The fact you're even bringing up any of these points while they're based on the experience of playing with a PROTECTION warrior in the 2s bracket, he's a tank.. no shit. people will avoid him just like they're meant to avoid blood dks. If whatever class you're waiting for DOESN'T wait for CC's then it will be a struggle to kill a tank.

Your whole, "You're here fighting because you were told to, so fight" is crap, sorry but it is. Arena isn't just based on who can do the most damage to their opponent, it's about outplaying your opponent through various mechanics. Mechanics that make the game less linear. What you're proposing would not only make the game more boring because of classes having the same abilities but would also ruin the game by making every class have a low skill ceiling.

Rogues in particular aren't meant to sit there and fight head on, they're a "sneaky assassain". That's their class, so following that, they should be able to decide when to initiate. It seems you're looking at this from the point of your prot brother, he wants to just hit stuff head on, no messing about, no strategy just hitting people with an axe, no "pansies".

There's also some basic misconceptions concerning rogue's stealth mechanics in this thread. Firstly, bleeds can't be removed with any rogue ability. Secondly, CloS and Combat readiness share a cooldown, which means if a rogue cloaks to get a clean vanish, they're going to have combat readiness on cooldown when they re-open. The second point also means if you go on the rogue and get him to pop combat readiness (the only real main defensive ability against melees), he won't be able to cloak for a clean vanish.

Finally, I know you mentioned it in your original post but i have to stress, please don't base opinions on balance when you're playing the most unbalanced bracket. Blizzard hasn't claimed the game is balanced around 1v1s which is what mostly you're describing (hunter dies, prot vs rogue etc) Just like if you were in arena even with 2s, you shouldnt have trouble getting the shadowsight as a 2v2.

There's a fair few things wrong with this game, this isn't one of them.