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  1. #21
    Just going to quote this from the other thread. I believe it was stated to come from the official forums.

    Even ignoring Rend and such, a look at some 10N Ultraxion parses shows that Unholy can expect about 55 chances at a proc every minute, and even when avoiding Mastery (as a non-Gurth UH will be doing) they get about 30% extra damage from their Mastery, so that's equivalent to about 70 chances/min.

    Arms looks to have about 78 chances/min, counting their Mastery.

    Fury, wielding one, has about 65 chances/min.

    Ret, without Seal of Truth has ~40/min. With it, ~95/min.

    So, 70 chances/min, or equivalent seems to be about the median. This gives the following variations:

    SPEC. Chance/Min % of median
    UH 55 71%
    UH inc. Mast. 70 100%
    Arms 78 111%
    Fury 65 93%
    Ret 40 57%
    Ret inc. SoT 95 136%

    Ret with SoT was less variant from the median than the new, nerfed, Ret, and by a considerable margin.

    That's called 'overnerfing', folks, especially when UH will put a higher priority on Mastery, increasing their DPS from the sword (see EJ's UH thread), and Arms seems to get more procs than I assumed.

  2. #22
    Brewmaster Fredzilla's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Auto-attacks, CS, TV and Judge. That's it. All the other melee will have a higher percentage than us at this point. Exorcism used to proc it via Seal of Truth, but yeah... that's gone since Seal of Truth won't proc it anymore, so it's more than half the proc opportunities gone.

    Also, I hope it was only a change to the way the weapons themselves worked with Seal of Truth, since if it was a change with the way Seal of Truth hits were treated instead, we could see lowered Landslide uptime.
    It's mind-boggling. In the first blue post of the page, the guy is even quoting another who says that SoT should proc it because it counts as a melee attack, then within that quote is some random idiot saying he doesn't think we should be able to proc it from Censure, and now we got screwed.

  3. #23
    does their mastery proc it?
    Yes. Fact of the matter is, all QQ'ing aside, we KEPT UP with the rest of the DPS when we had the sword proc as it was, Now we are lucky to get 1 ppm. This is a pure PvP nerf, and one would logically expect some sort of counter-balance, but this will probably fall under the "working as intended" tag and ignored, like always.

  4. #24
    Best Kitten Simca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    You can call it whatever you like - bug, feature or divine intervention, but if my damage drops 9% overnight and I have absolutely no means to compensate for it, I call it what it is - a freaking nerfbat. Dixi.
    I'm going to continue to call you out on that 9% number until you look at 20-30 parses to confirm it. I'm still fairly sure you're off by around 1050 DPS by my math, which is actually quite significant in this case because it does put us midpack.

    I don't understand why most of the Rets on this forum LOVE to overreact.

    Was it justified to make the weapon significantly weaker for Ret than other specs? Not really.
    Does it really matter much in terms of balance when we're still midpack after the nerf? Not really.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryann View Post
    Yes. Fact of the matter is, all QQ'ing aside, we KEPT UP with the rest of the DPS when we had the sword proc as it was, Now we are lucky to get 1 ppm. This is a pure PvP nerf, and one would logically expect some sort of counter-balance, but this will probably fall under the "working as intended" tag and ignored, like always.
    We were in the upper end of the DPS tier, stop selling us short intentionally to prove a point.
    Last edited by Simca; 2012-01-05 at 08:59 PM.
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  5. #25
    Sure, we were in the upper half. But barring obscenely good luck with it, we kept up with everyone else. You can look at raidbots all you want and say that rets are top of the line, but every single ret ranking for their data is getting that obscenely good luck with their sword procs. Barring those extreme scenarios we really were just top 5 or 6, depending on fight. I think every ret in a truly competitive raid guild can back me up on that.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisko View Post
    You can call it whatever you like - bug, feature or divine intervention, but if my damage drops 9% overnight and I have absolutely no means to compensate for it, I call it what it is - a freaking nerfbat. Dixi.
    Because weapons that do 10% of someones total damage with a proc while the legendary staff proc is 3% isnt completely retarded
    N

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellesarr View Post
    Because weapons that do 10% of someones total damage with a proc while the legendary staff proc is 3% isnt completely retarded
    Because Fire Mages are in such a bad spot right now. >.>

  8. #28
    Best Kitten Simca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryann View Post
    Sure, we were in the upper half. But barring obscenely good luck with it, we kept up with everyone else. You can look at raidbots all you want and say that rets are top of the line, but every single ret ranking for their data is getting that obscenely good luck with their sword procs. Barring those extreme scenarios we really were just top 5 or 6, depending on fight. I think every ret in a truly competitive raid guild can back me up on that.
    Oh please and that isn't true of every spec? Every spec likes to make out how their spec is a real unique snowflake with lots of RNG. If anything, we had more consistent uptime than the other classes with our sword procs.

    Does Ret have a lot of RNG in it? Yes.
    Does it have exceptionally more RNG than legendary staff users or half the other classes ranking around them? No.
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  9. #29
    Oww shit haven't had the time to abuse it...

    So where does Gurth LFR and normal stands compared to slicer normal and slicer heroic now ?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Ellesarr View Post
    Because weapons that do 10% of someones total damage with a proc while the legendary staff proc is 3% isnt completely retarded
    Except the Legendary Staff has 3 red sockets and secondary stats, making the procs incomparable. Zing.

  11. #31
    Best Kitten Simca's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vonballz View Post
    Because Fire Mages are in such a bad spot right now. >.>
    Because Fire Mages are clearly the only spec using a legendary staff. I don't think a single person denies that Fire needs a nerf.

    In fact, Ret was beating ALL Warlock specs (legendary) until this hotfix. Now, Affliction is SLIGHTLY ahead. It is still beating all Elemental Shamans (legendary).

    Quote Originally Posted by Reith View Post
    Except the Legendary Staff has 3 red sockets and secondary stats, making the procs incomparable. Zing.
    You can still calculate the DPS value of the staff with any DPS tool or some logs and some math.
    Last edited by Simca; 2012-01-05 at 09:13 PM.
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  12. #32
    lol @ ppl thinking that Unholy dk's mastery improves the chance of proccing.
    Since when does INCREASED SHADOW DAMAGE increase the amount of procs?
    It will only increase the value of a proc, not the amount and chance to proc. HERP DERP.

    And @ paladins, yes it sucks but move on. Blizzard was too lazy to fix it during wotlk and finally decided to do so. You're still competive if you swap weapon, though you will be more dependant on trinket rng.
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  13. #33
    bugfix =/= nerf

    as much as I loved having three tentacles up at once ;_;

  14. #34
    Herald of the Titans Varyk's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellesarr View Post
    Because weapons that do 10% of someones total damage with a proc while the legendary staff proc is 3% isnt completely retarded
    Agreed, I mean I have 2 Heroic morchok axes and a LFR Gurthulak....guess which does more damage? Although it has a lot to do with Unholy Mastery as well, the proc is the main culprit. It's still doing 10-11% of my overall damage on most fights. People do need to realize that these procs have to be strong to make up for the loss of 600ish haste/crit/mastery/hit/etc which is a pretty sizable dps increase by itself albeit probably not 10%.
    Last edited by Varyk; 2012-01-05 at 09:19 PM.

  15. #35
    It still procs off rend though hey double standards.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Varyk View Post
    Agreed, I mean I have 2 Heroic morchok axes and a LFR Gurthulak....guess which does more damage?
    Because frost is a DW spec and 2h frost is dead?
    And if you play in unholy LFR gurthalak should do less dps than frost DW with those 2. (considering average aka sims, not anecdotal)
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  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThargixEchoes View Post
    lol @ ppl thinking that Unholy dk's mastery improves the chance of proccing.
    Since when does INCREASED SHADOW DAMAGE increase the amount of procs?
    It will only increase the value of a proc, not the amount and chance to proc. HERP DERP.
    No one ever said it increased the proc chance, all they ever said was it increased it's effective DPS.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Simca View Post
    I'm going to continue to call you out on that 9% number until you look at 20-30 parses to confirm it. I'm still fairly sure you're off by around 1050 DPS by my math, which is actually quite significant in this case because it does put us midpack.

    I don't understand why most of the Rets on this forum LOVE to overreact.

    Was it justified to make the weapon significantly weaker for Ret than other specs? Not really.
    Does it really matter much in terms of balance when we're still midpack after the nerf? Not really.



    We were in the upper end of the DPS tier, stop selling us short intentionally to prove a point.
    So you have no problems with the, in actuality, unwarranted nerf to our dps?

    As far as RNG goes, it's not the amount we have that's the problem, it's that we proc our hardest hitting ability. During my cds on tuesday, I've had massive differences in dps/damage based on how lucky I get with DP. None of our other dps spike or fluctuate nearly as much as I do.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Schattenlied View Post
    No one ever said it increased the proc chance, all they ever said was it increased it's effective DPS.
    78 chances/min =/= proc chance?
    Unless im reading this wrong it actually is saying that.
    Anyways, not gonna drag this OT
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  20. #40
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    It's a huge nerf in our DPS, doing Ultraxion HC atm, its doing 2-3 times less damage overall.

    They should make the proc for all direct damage, not melee attacks. Or at least "bug" it again if I may call it so.

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