Heroic Spine Gripes

[Syck]

An arcane mage with a legendary, doing it correctly, will do 1.8-2.2mil per pop. Just FYI.

Yeah about this.

no/10

[Gray_Matter]

Class stacking? SKILL stacking. You should know how to play your class, you should know how to reforge properly to do maximum damage by your class in 23 seconds.

I am sorry but this is not true. Show me one log where an enhance shaman has a HC spine kill. Searing totem won't even attack the tendon reliably.

Don't get me wrong, Enh is in a really great place at the moment but it doesn't have nearly the burst required for this fight in it's present state.

I don't mind that at all. What I really like about DS is that different classes shine in different places so you don't get raids looking for 6 mages because they will have a tough time clearing DS like that.

[Ristaccia]

Yeah about this.

no/10

Hi, I'm in a guild that killed it. This was happening with a good arcane mage properly doing some pops with a bit of crit RNG. Sup.

[Nitwit]

An arcane mage with a legendary, doing it correctly, will do 1.8-2.2mil per pop. Just FYI.

You might burst that high on the first lift of the first tendon if your guild still has to stack potion and bloodlust to get past it (presumably not yet thinking about how they're going to make the dps checks on tendons 2 and 3), but you're not going to sustain that for the entire fight.

Vodka's top tendon dps averages 1.2-1.3 million per lift.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...001&target=350

Same for Blood Legion.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...5264&target=66

Same for pretty much any other guild you want to check.

[Gondlem]

Can you explain this statement?

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-38...?s=3134&e=3882
I see 5 healers and 1 tank (there second tank is a DPS warrior) leaving 19 DPS to attack tendons.
118.11 million damage done to tedons ÷ (19 DPS x 23 second/window x 6 windows) = 45,046 DPS per DPS class

http://worldoflogs.com/reports/9e0ff...=15420&e=16080
I see 3 healers and tank 1 tank (again their second tank is a DPS druid) leaving 6 DPS to damage the tendons.
38.07 million damage done to tendons ÷ (6 DPS x 23 second/window x 6 windows) = 45,978 DPS per DPS class.

Most 25 man kills use three tanks, some use two. None of them use one and a DPS warrior - the parse you link there has two prot warriors in it and neither of them do much tendon damage.

The damage window is really around 19 seconds, not 23. You can't attack the tendon for the first 4 seconds of the lift phase.

With those two changes the DPS requirement is 57558 DPS on 25 man if you use 2 tanks, and 60944 if you use 3, though realistically if you use a 3 tank strat 1-2 of them will do quite a lot of tendon damage anyway, so it's reasonable to assume roughly 18 DPSers. On 10 man it's 55657.

Doesn't really change your argument, just thought I'd point those things out.

Also, incidentally, the difficulty of Spine on 25 man isn't really about tendon damage. In current gear you will realistically be beating the DPS check fairly easily for a while before you have a shot at killing the boss. Most wipes later on in the learning process will be to Blood-related things like tank deaths and other execution issues like stun management rather than just failing to kill tendons.

Haven't done it on 10 man so I can't comment there.

---------- Post added 2012-01-11 at 10:19 AM ----------

You might burst that high on the first lift of the first tendon if your guild still has to stack potion and bloodlust to get past it (presumably not yet thinking about how they're going to make the dps checks on tendons 2 and 3), but you're not going to sustain that for the entire fight.

Vodka's top tendon dps averages 1.2-1.3 million per lift.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...001&target=350

Same for Blood Legion.
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...5264&target=66

Same for pretty much any other guild you want to check.

Yep, and a shadow priest can do around this amount. An spriest was second on our Spine kill with around 8m tendon damage across 6 lifts.

[a21fa7c67f26f6d49a20c2c51]

[quote]Most 25 man kills use three tanks, some use two. None of them use one and a DPS warrior - the parse you link there has two prot warriors in it and neither of them do much tendon damage.[quote]
Thanks for the catch -- I looked for DPS slots by just counting how many people did 1m+ damage and then just counted toggled over to "damage taken" to see how many people were way higher than everyone else. A bit sloppy - but I guess when things are so close I should have double checked specs.

With those two changes the DPS requirement is 57558 DPS on 25 man if you use 2 tanks…On 10 man it's 55657.

Agreed.

A shorter "real" DPS window reduces the difference that DPS requirements make. 19 seconds * 18 dps * 1.9k difference = 649k damage. That's near enough to the 500k difference I was willing to handwave away as "a couple of lucky crits" that I think it makes no real difference. Certainly not enough to claim either size has it dramatically easier (in the the way 10m yorsahj was much easier than 25m during the first week or two of heroics).

It's worth noting I also completely discounted healer contributions and I should probably explain that: Assuming 2/3 healers attack tendons and that 10 and 25m healers both contribute similar amounts of damage (whatever that amount is) the difference in DPS should be similar enough that it doesn't matter.

My experience matches yours: while tendons are not something you can ignore, the real concern is blood management (after the first plate). Maybe his position was that "the first tendon is a joke - only consider second and third because things are more hectic then" but he hasn't poped back to explain himself. For now I'm just going to write it off under the assumption that he made an offhand comment based on old prejudices or frustration rather than careful reasoning or research.

[Makarena]

An arcane mage with a legendary, doing it correctly, will do 1.8-2.2mil per pop. Just FYI.

Its very unlikely to be true though might be possible if you try to use insignia of corrupted mind and line up its proc with the tendon + use will of unbinding + crit/mastey reforges. That would yield maximum dps on tendon. Problem is, outside of tendon you would do nothing + proc is not reliable aka might not even proc at all + luck with grips/crits/legendary procs etc ... I did 1.7 mil MAXIMUM with SOW + will of unbinding w/o potion and I gotta say I was so lucky on crits for 1st 4-5 seconds when my incanter absorption was still ticking (~4300 spellpower) I didnt get tricks though, with them you could do maybe 70-80k more. At the same time I sometimes did like 1.1 mil coz of utter unluck on crits.

[Paskgotsheal]

An arcane mage with a legendary, doing it correctly, will do 1.8-2.2mil per pop. Just FYI.

no they wont

they would need to crit on every spell

please learn what you're talking about before you speak.

[Eviljoe]

Hi, I'm in a guild that killed it. This was happening with a good arcane mage properly doing some pops with a bit of crit RNG. Sup.

Hi, I looked at the logs of your kill, and you're kind of dumb. Sup.

[refire]

You're so wrong, shadow preists are almost better then arcane mages if played correctly for 23 second burst i do 1.2-1.4 mil per burst

Guess you missed the OPs update on the second page:

Wow so many responses. As for "OMG PRIEST 4 PC WTF BBQ", I've been passing on loot for other classes and specs to attain their 4 pc since most fights favor much much more multi-dotting, which favors 2 piece 2 piece. Yes, we're trying to kill it weeks before devs intend us to, but that doesn't excuse the poor fight design in that a 23 second window is the dps check, something easily cheesed by bringing in arcane mages and sub rogues.

As for Nadrii, let me have your 4 piece and I'll roll with that. Better yet give it to this guy

[Paskgotsheal]

Guess you missed the OPs update on the second page:

There's no excuse not to have 4 peice by now, at least 4 piece LFR. Like seriously get some of your guildie conq members to do LFR with you and roll on conq teir. It's not hard I got our new spreist 3 peices of LFR in 1 run this week to gear up for spine.

[MrHappy]

seems you lost your special cupcake feeling...cant help you with that but here is a waffle (>'.')>#