1. #1

    Holy Pally Trinket Question - Also, request misc help

    Anyone have or know where to find any numbers on Heart of Unliving (from Spine)? I'm currently running 397 iLvL Seal of Seven Signs off of Zonozz and 391 Jaws of Defeat off of heroic Domo and was wondering if it's really worth replacing Jaws or Seal for the Heart trinket. I know it's a lot of spirit but Jaws seems to come in very handy during heavy damage phases and I can control when I use it.. or should I just drop the Seal? What do you guys think?


    To put my current stat build into perspective so you know what I'm running with, I'm doing a spirit/mastery build currently, maintaining the haste minimum of 774 (above it at 818 currently), 251 crit, 2394 mastery and 4868 regen (pre-buff). Gear is 394 iLvL average.

    I noticed many of the world top parses using a build similar to mine, and noticed one that was focused heavily on crit instead of mastery.. but I noticed one thing different in their builds - all of theirs had higher regen. So, I'm just trying to figure out a way to maximize my mana efficiency so I can start healing better. I haven't had a good top 10 parse in a long time now so I'd like to try to figure out whatever it is I'm doing wrong.

    If you'd like to look my toon up for more details, I'm Flynnt of <Alone> on Aerie Peak.

  2. #2
    Constant spirit buff >>>>>>>>>>>>>> random haste proc.

  3. #3
    The Patient Chakra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheProxy View Post
    Constant spirit buff >>>>>>>>>>>>>> random haste proc.
    Not enough >>>'s, but it's the truth.
    "I don't have a complete healing set yet, but I am healing capped and MP5 capped, so I'm good."

  4. #4
    I picked up some extra spirit on my gear and got a new item today with this week's VPs and it seems to have made a pretty decent difference... as much as I hate to say it, maybe my problem all along was just stats, that I didn't have enough regen. I don't have to be quite as mana conscious now. The conversion of mastery/haste into regen for the extra longevity/extra spells seems to be making a big difference. I'll have to try to pick up that Heart trinket and give that a whirl if it drops this week.

    Edit: Tbh, it's kind of embarrassing to think I did my stats wrong - especially regen. I haven't ever had problems with regen before >.<

  5. #5
    Heart of Unliving is definitely BiS, no matter if you have the LFR, normal or heroic version. The normal version calcs out to be around 16,000 mana every 2 minutes as long as the spirit buff stays active 100% of the time. (Which it will) Not to mention it comes with static intellect, which even though it's lower than the intellect on other trinkets, is far outweighed by the mana regen.

  6. #6
    Even the LFR heart is better then 391 jaws tbh, i think its a constant 770 spirit? without a doubt use that and the seal
    Last edited by Theholypally; 2012-01-17 at 12:47 AM.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  7. #7
    Use the Heart and swap the other 2 around as needed depending on if you want regen or throughput.

    Heart is BiS imo, I wouldn't trade it for anything.


  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    without a doubt use that and the seal

    ...no

    Heart + Jaws

    Why would I want a random haste proc when I could have a CD that makes my heals, mainly HR, cost less?

  9. #9
    Dreadlord myhv's Avatar
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    Will use heart + the other trinket, with the heal proc, the alextrazas stronger version. Might not be the best choice, but it saved lives so many times, I just can't give it up.
    Ashes to ashes, fade and rust, your mind be broken, your body to dust

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by TheProxy View Post
    ...no

    Heart + Jaws

    Why would I want a random haste proc when I could have a CD that makes my heals, mainly HR, cost less?
    That's the beauty of choice, you can use what you want. Jaws was never a great trinket to begin with, I replaced my jaws and now use normal heart and heroic eobp.

    So yes, heart and seal if that's what I had to choose from.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Theholypally View Post
    That's the beauty of choice, you can use what you want. Jaws was never a great trinket to begin with, I replaced my jaws and now use normal heart and heroic eobp.

    So yes, heart and seal if that's what I had to choose from.
    and I could choose to wear leather agi gear if I wanted to. Why, well that's the beauty of choice. Why don't I? Because it wouldn't be optimal.

    Anyway, do what you want. I tried.

  12. #12
    Choice is just a piss poor excuse for doing things wrong.

    Your need to be a special snowflake has no mathematical equivalent that can be figured into optimization. There is one right way of doing things. Everything else is just varying degrees of wrong.

    No one gets to be perfect, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try.
    <WHAR LEWTS PLZ HALp>
    I'm bitter by default. Don't take it personally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    Either give an argument, or be automatically wrong. Your choice.

  13. #13
    *Already raised this question in the Spine HC thread but anyway...*

    In combination with heart, which of those is best for regen?
    - DMC:T
    - Heroic Jaws
    - Heroic FoM (Cho'Gall trinket)

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaytemoss View Post
    *Already raised this question in the Spine HC thread but anyway...*

    In combination with heart, which of those is best for regen?
    - DMC:T
    - Heroic Jaws
    - Heroic FoM (Cho'Gall trinket)
    If you're spamming enough to get FoM to proc instantly off its ICD then it's better than DMC:T. If you're not then DMC:T edges it out a bit in the spirit department, but the higher int will still make them extremely close. I don't think you can go wrong with either one. Both should give more MP5 than Jaw I think. Overall I'd say FoM, but you'd have to check your logs to see just how much it proced with your heals.


  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by TheProxy View Post
    and I could choose to wear leather agi gear if I wanted to. Why, well that's the beauty of choice. Why don't I? Because it wouldn't be optimal.

    Anyway, do what you want. I tried.
    Thats great, considering i was talking about the trinket choices and how most decent holy paladins actually use a special method called "swapping trinkets" for different fights. But hey, "I tried".

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-18 at 12:32 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Firecrest View Post
    Choice is just a piss poor excuse for doing things wrong.

    Your need to be a special snowflake has no mathematical equivalent that can be figured into optimization. There is one right way of doing things. Everything else is just varying degrees of wrong.

    No one gets to be perfect, but that doesn't mean that you shouldn't try.
    And i agree, but read above. Only difference is that I can make decisions based on other things like raid comp and fight type and make a decision on what i want to use based on that. Being a snowflake has its perks.
    Last edited by Theholypally; 2012-01-18 at 01:07 PM.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBmNL...ature=youtu.be (#1 SSB Gold run on Bleeding Hollow)
    "Your lights will go out. The darkness will envelop you. And you will fear the shadows that move within it."

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by TheProxy View Post
    ...no

    Heart + Jaws

    Why would I want a random haste proc when I could have a CD that makes my heals, mainly HR, cost less?
    2,500 haste will always create more throughput than 10-12k mana every 2 minutes would if you're not having mana issues. Every two minutes you can either get 1 1/2 free Holy Radiance, or you can cast around 2-3 more Holy Radiances every 2 minutes within a 20 second frame of time.

    Prime example:

    I cleared Heroic Ultraxion the other week. I had a choice between LFR Heart of Unliving, 378 Jaws of Defeat, 359 Darkmoon Card: Tsunami and 359 Fall of Mortality. Those were my personal choices as I did not have any heroics versions of trinkets. The way we healed the fight, our druid grabbed red the entire fight. I grabbed green and then switched to blue. In our previous attempts the weeks before, I was having mana issues before I got to the point where I could pick up blue. I did some basic math. With judgement up, 770 spirit from LFR Heart gave me 916 mana per 5 seconds. I am human, so please keep in mind I get a 3% buff to spirit. I was able to pull 68k sustained hps two healing it, peaking at 165k hps during the last 20 seconds of the fight, according to WoL. The extra regen from Heart of Unliving (which I got that week) and DMC: Tsunami (Which replaced Jaws of Defeat) was what I needed during the green crystal phase to ensure I would have enough mana to non-stop spam radiance during the blue phase. (Because believe it or not, spamming radiance during blue still consumes mana, albeit, not a whole lot)

    However, people in better gear than me (Currently I'm around 393 equipped pve but was 391 during that ultraxion considering my trinkets of choice were tsunami and heart for maximum garanteed mana regen) would be able to swap out tsunami for Seal in order to boost their throughput because they won't need the extra mana regen. Mana regen (and yes, Jaws of Defeat IS mana regen) is only useful when you're ooming in a fight. When you reach the point where you can successfully heal it efficiently without the use of that regen trinket, you can swap it out for something that makes your time healing the fight easier (ie. throughput).

    And before you question my use of DMC: Tsunami, I would just like to point out the paladin who solo'd the encounter (on heroic) used DMC: Tsunami and normal Heart of Unliving. So I gave it a try and test them out. As a human, with judgement up, I recieve 916 mana per 5 from the 780 spirit I gain from Heart. This means I gain 1.175 mana per 5 seconds for each point of spirit, causing DMC: Tsunami's 400 spirit to net me 470 mana per 5, or 11,273 mana every 2 minutes. I found this to be more useful during the ultraxion encounter, as the only GCD I had to waste on my mana regen was popping Divine Plea or Judging once per minute. Also, due to the fight being about a 5 minute encounter, the regen from DMC ends up actually being more than that of Jaws of Defeat. The reason for this being, you can only use Jaws once per two minutes, so you are only receiving it's benefits for (technically) 4 minutes of the fight. DMC benefits you for the entire 5 minutes, from start to finish. The fight would have to be at least 6 minutes and 20 seconds long for you to get more regen from Jaws, and that is assuming you pop it the very second the fight starts.

    This is all theorycrafting, but it worked best for me. I just think it's silly to say that Jaws of Defeat (or any mana regenerating trinket) is always going to be superior to a haste buff, because once you start frequently ending those encounters with a surplus of mana left, your regen trinkets are being wasted, essentially. It isn't even a case of "But you'll be able to cast more Divine Lights/Holy Radiances instead of Holy Lights" anymore, because on fights like ultraxion, the only spell you're pretty much using is HR + your Holy Power abilities.

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