No Legendary Staff & Dps

[rijn dael]

On topic, the legendary isn't needed for good dps. I managed to outdps a demo lock who had the staff on Zon'ozz in the LFR earlier. 2.5k more dps than him. :/

This kinda implies either he sucks, or you outgear him overall :P

[Yekul]

This kinda implies either he sucks, or you outgear him overall :P

That's the problem with the caster legendary. It has ruined your options in 10 man guilds. So you want to join a "progression" raiding guild at this point in time, then you better hope you were your previous GM/RL best buddy at the start of Firelands. It's damn near impossible to get the legendary in 10 man environments now, as nobody wants to do the old content.

And for those saying it isn't that much of a difference (I noticed you have the achievement btw...), it's a huge difference in DPS. Heroic Lightning Rod does not even come close. Maybe it's different in 25s (i'm nearly sure it is), but in 10s the caster legendary has been nothing but a PITA for an average player looking to do some progression raiding. I sat next to an ele shaman for near 2 months doing as good if not better dps on almost every fight whilst he held a legendary. If I had it as well, he'd have been left for dead.

Frustrating, very frustrating. I play on a small server, we have one "serious" 25 man guild, in the end it ended up being you weren't even looked at unless you had a legendary in the application. I hope they never do this again, and I hope they take notice of posts like the one mentioned prior. About how it should be an item which benefits the entire raid, not just the one person.

Anyways, long story short. Yes you can dps without it (obviously). Will you do as much as a player equally as good as you with the legendary? Hell no, not even close.

[Aethilus]

I'd rather see legendary's have more raid buff things next expansion (like Atiesh or the DW Staff) as opposed to over powered self buffs. It'd make legendaries less required for huge personal DPS gains and instead required for an overall raid DPS gain.

I second this. Give legendaries a raid buff that doesn't stack with other legendaries (of the same type?) and maybe a small ilvl increase that just results in more int/str/agi and secondary stats. The raid buff again should not stack so the only personal dps increase comes from the ilvl. This would make the world first guilds still have a lot of them but the casual to semi-hardcore have 1 and not be MILES behind.

[Badahs]

I second this. Give legendaries a raid buff that doesn't stack with other legendaries (of the same type?) and maybe a small ilvl increase that just results in more int/str/agi and secondary stats. The raid buff again should not stack so the only personal dps increase comes from the ilvl. This would make the world first guilds still have a lot of them but the casual to semi-hardcore have 1 and not be MILES behind.

I have the legendary on my lock and I agree with this. A lot of good players got very frustrated and quit the game simply because no matter how well they played they couldn't match the mouth breather with the legendary. For example, my wife's mage doesn't have the legendary and instead has the lightning rod. When I sim her character it gives me 41,365 dps, but when I switch in the legendary for the lightning rod it gives me 45,398 dps. That's a 4k dps difference from a single proc. At the top end, it is almost impossible to overcome this 10% advantage in dps because everyone plays really really well.

I really like the idea of having the legendary grant a raid wide buff and only a stats increase to the individual player holding the legendary in line with the increased ilvl compared to other loot. The whole raid helped the player get the item and the whole raid should benefit. It shouldn't be an item that essentially helps individual players flex their epeens. Although I do love doing this in lfr.

http://i.imgur.com/4Ac9f.jpg

[Dorfie]

I have the legendary on my lock and I agree with this. A lot of good players got very frustrated and quit the game simply because no matter how well they played they couldn't match the mouth breather with the legendary. For example, my wife's mage doesn't have the legendary and instead has the lightning rod. When I sim her character it gives me 41,365 dps, but when I switch in the legendary for the lightning rod it gives me 45,398 dps. That's a 4k dps difference from a single proc. At the top end, it is almost impossible to overcome this 10% advantage in dps because everyone plays really really well.

I really like the idea of having the legendary grant a raid wide buff and only a stats increase to the individual player holding the legendary in line with the increased ilvl compared to other loot. The whole raid helped the player get the item and the whole raid should benefit. It shouldn't be an item that essentially helps individual players flex their epeens. Although I do love doing this in lfr.

http://i.imgur.com/4Ac9f.jpg

Damn that sucks. I'm a healer and if I knew there was an item out there that would increase my healing potential by 10% and I couldn't get it for whatever reason I'd be super annoyed. A legendary that was balanced to give a buff to the raid (that didn't stack, maybe make it so 25 needs 3 of them to cover the raid but they get them 3 times faster) would be a lot more legendary (you're buffing the whole motherfucking raid).

It'd also solve a lot of other issues. Stacking wouldn't matter, once you got 1 or 3 any extras won't do anything. Also the people who missed out still get in on buff.

[Deleted]

warlock can be competitive even without the legendary staff. It is more likely depending on the encounter. As 396 geared affli lock with 391 Firelands weapon I have second dps on Morchok hc, first on Unsleeping, first on Madness and top 3 on Ultraxion. Encounters like spine, battleship, hagara are very "unfriendly" for affli warlock
Didn't tried two other speccs so not sure how they are performing.

[Badahs]

warlock can be competitive even without the legendary staff. It is more likely depending on the encounter. As 396 geared affli lock with 391 Firelands weapon I have second dps on Morchok hc, first on Unsleeping, first on Madness and top 3 on Ultraxion. Encounters like spine, battleship, hagara are very "unfriendly" for affli warlock
Didn't tried two other speccs so not sure how they are performing.

Depends on your definition of competitive. If by competitive you mean you can do anywhere close in dps without the legendary as you could with the legendary than you are incorrect. The legendary adds about 10% dps through its proc and its something that you can't overcome w/ better gear other than maybe the proc from the deathwing weapons. This is because since the damage is essentially percent base, it scales with your gear. If you have decent gear and you do 35k the legendary will add another 3.5k to your dps. If you get better gear and do 40k the legendary will add 4k to your dps. Thus you actually increased the benefit of the legendary by getting better gear and that is the reason why the weapon is so powerful and also the reason why it was nerfed. Currently there are no caster weapons in the game whose base stats, even at heroic dragon soul item levels, can overcome the legendary proc.

Ofcourse a good player without the legendary will play better than a bad player with the legendary. Stating that you had high dps in your raid doesn't really tell us much because we have no idea about your raid composition or quality of players. It is not a slight at you or your raid but it holds that if you did x damage w/o the legendary, you would have done around 1.1x with the legendary.

[Belloc]

That's the problem with the caster legendary. It has ruined your options in 10 man guilds. So you want to join a "progression" raiding guild at this point in time, then you better hope you were your previous GM/RL best buddy at the start of Firelands. It's damn near impossible to get the legendary in 10 man environments now, as nobody wants to do the old content.

And for those saying it isn't that much of a difference (I noticed you have the achievement btw...), it's a huge difference in DPS. Heroic Lightning Rod does not even come close. Maybe it's different in 25s (i'm nearly sure it is), but in 10s the caster legendary has been nothing but a PITA for an average player looking to do some progression raiding. I sat next to an ele shaman for near 2 months doing as good if not better dps on almost every fight whilst he held a legendary. If I had it as well, he'd have been left for dead.

Frustrating, very frustrating. I play on a small server, we have one "serious" 25 man guild, in the end it ended up being you weren't even looked at unless you had a legendary in the application. I hope they never do this again, and I hope they take notice of posts like the one mentioned prior. About how it should be an item which benefits the entire raid, not just the one person.

Anyways, long story short. Yes you can dps without it (obviously). Will you do as much as a player equally as good as you with the legendary? Hell no, not even close.

My previous 10-man guild currently has 3 (maybe 4, when counting alts) legendaries. All it takes is a weekly Firelands run and you're pretty much guaranteed a legendary.

Also, with the higher-end DS weapons, the damage difference is negligible.

[Blinus]

Blizzard tries to balance around endgame gear for each tier. As of 4.2, this is what each class would look like (single target) with full BiS gear.

1. Mage (Fire) - 56,798
2. Rogue (Sub) - 55,551
3. Mage (Arcane) - 53,883
4. Rogue (Assas) - 53,777
5. Rogue (Combat) - 53,500
6. Warlock (Demo) - 52,334
7. Warlock (Affliction) - 50,773
8. Hunter (MM) - 50,700
9. Warlock (Destro) - 50,639
10. Shaman (Elemental) - 50,503
11. Warrior (Arms) - 50,215
12. Druid (Feral) - 50,119
13. Paladin (Ret) - 49,657
14. DK (Unholy) - 49,440
15. Shaman (Enh) - 48,803
16. Priest (Shadow) - 46,735
17. Druid (Balance) - 45,620

No Legendary Staff Dps list

1. Mage (Fire) - 56,798 = 51,798
2. Rogue (Sub) - 55,551
3. Mage (Arcane) - 53,883 = 48,883
4. Rogue (Assas) - 53,777
5. Rogue (Combat) - 53,500
6. Warlock (Demo) - 52,334 = 48,334
7. Warlock (Affliction) - 50,773= 45,773
8. Hunter (MM) - 50,700
9. Warlock (Destro) - 50,639 = 45.639
10. Shaman (Elemental) - 50,503 = 45,503
11. Warrior (Arms) - 50,215
12. Druid (Feral) - 50,119
13. Paladin (Ret) - 49,657
14. DK (Unholy) - 49,440
15. Shaman (Enh) - 48,803
16. Priest (Shadow) - 46,735 = 42,235
17. Druid (Balance) - 45,620 = 41,120

All of the casters in this list have Legendary Staff. Take way the Legendary Staff and the 10% increase it does for damage. Where do all the casters on the list now stand ?

Casters classes can't keep up with melee dps without a Legendary Staff that takes months of Firelands raids. Plus the game balance is around classes and not a STUPID ITEM!! I would rather them remove the Legendary Staff proc and balance my class the right way and no weapon in Dragon Soul can come close to the Legendary Staff proc damage.

[scadouche]

I'm currently parsing top 100 25 normals without the legendary and having only Morchok killed on heroic...so people saying you can only compete or w/e with the legendary are wrong. I play Affli/Demo.

[Badahs]

I'm currently parsing top 100 25 normals without the legendary and having only Morchok killed on heroic...so people saying you can only compete or w/e with the legendary are wrong. I play Affli/Demo.

character name and server please.

There are ranked casters without the staff, but they are relatively few and far in between. The reason is because the other players in your raid have to be so good that you kill the boss much faster than other guilds and thus your heroism and other long cool downs uptime is maximized compared to other groups which can help make up for the lack of a legendary. In addition being fed power infusion, another locks DI, focus magic, tricks, etc. def help a lot.

If we look at the top ten ranked demo locks on ultraxion normal for example, each one has the legendary. The question isn't whether you can be a good player without the legendary, obviously you can. The question is whether the legendary gives a significant advantage, which it obviously does.

[gakpad]

eh our raid dps isn't superb but I still manage to rank on most fights without the legendary, power infusion, tricks or focus magic (you can't stack di anymore so that's irrelevant), sometimes top 100- they're listed in the following link if you need proof for some reason:
http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...th/horrendous/

the legendary still isn't a replacement for knowing how to play properly

[Badahs]

the legendary still isn't a replacement for knowing how to play properly

agree 100%. like i said: The question isn't whether you can be a good player without the legendary, obviously you can. The question is whether the legendary gives a significant advantage, which it obviously does.

looking at your parses, its a bit sad that you don't have the legendary, because honestly you would be helping your raid so much more if you did.

[Yekul]

looking at your parses, its a bit sad that you don't have the legendary, because honestly you would be helping your raid so much more if you did.

I'm kind of amazed people are uploading LFR logs and trying to use them in "zomg i'm da best without legendary" discussions. But sure, dps looks good. Now add ~10% to it, and that's what you could be doing. Meanwhile (not referring to you specifically here), the guy standing next to you who's 10% lower than you who has it is infact equal dps with you.

Badahs and Blinus pretty much summed up my thoughts on it. The legendary is a legendary, I get that. But it has pretty much killed this patch for me on my casters. Thankfully I had an opportunity to move to a more casual guild, and am actually finding raiding significantly more fun now, mostly due to the lack of a legendary in the group.

[gakpad]

I really was only referencing the normal kills >_> On topic however the legendary is in my opinion a little too powerful. Granted it's nowhere near as good as it was before the nerf but I feel like it still being 3k+ dps better than the second place counterpart for the second tier it's been around for is a little rediculous. Since I only took a few months break at the end of t11/beginning of t12 I still would have only just finished my legendary two weeks ago. Alas, two people were ahead of me in line for it, two of which no longer raid with us, and to be frank it really sucks. I am literally unable to compete with many of the top players due to a single piece of gear no matter how well I play. But I digress. I still play to beat my dps on every fight I did last week and that will keep me going until MoP when we get an even playing field again.

[rijn dael]

My 10m runs 5 dps casters, every single one has it - as well as an alt or two. Only one of those was completed in another guild, the rest were via pugs, gdkp's, alt runs etc. Our last one was completed this week.

There is no way we would recruit someone without one - but at this point, you don't need to have been anyones best friend to get one, you just need to have put the effort in. I admit they really ruined a lot of my fun this expansion - created drama etc - overall I would prefer to not be balanced around them, but I can't imagine them going slower than they did to reward them either.

Sidenote, its probably hard to use normal morchok as an example - most raids dedicated enough to be picky about legendaries will have only killed it on normal once, so the competition isn't really fierce

[Hellfury]

I have the legendary and i feel the situation for those that dont, it really sucks ass, tbh I wouldn't be playing if I didn't had it, because they are balancing the other classes that cant get one vs the ones that do. The staff for me doesnt feel legendary for me feels like a tool I use to only be able to do competitive DPS, the fact that that so many classes can use it ruined it

[Aensland]

Being away from the game for over 6 months last summer has pretty much cost me any chance of ever getting the DTR. Playing on a high pop, raiding rich server (Illidan US), I am constantly surrounded by a seemingly endless # of DTR weilders. Honestly, I feel rather inadequate, as if I have little to no value for a serious raiding guild. But luckily, I am in a guild to raid with but heard stories of good players having a difficult time finding guilds simply because they didn't have a legendary; which just flat out sucks. I'm aware blizzard has made some changes, including giving melee dps buffs so they can remain competitive with legendary casters. And recently, they've announced the changes for hunters. Yet caster dps w/o a legendary seems to be forgotten and remains the crap of the crop. We're pretty much stuck with two stat starved weapon drops, with lackluster procs, from Madness of Deathwing. To make things worse, it's actually impossible to reach the hit cap if you have full tier 13 level gear and Ti'Tahk equipped.

If you ask me what I'm looking forward to most in MoP, I'd have to say the DTR no longer being BiS. Because I feel like I'm being punished for not having one now.

[David Cavalheiro]

It´s not true you need Legendary to be parsed on top 100 but it is certain that will give you more 3-4 dps and your position on the ranks will be much more better.

Unfortunetly I don´t have Legendary but this is not prevents me to be on top 100-200, 25 normal.

http://www.wow-heroes.com/character/...th/horrendous/


I was ranked on Yor´Saj , Blackhorn but seems I´m not anymore :<. Tbh I don´t get it why I can´t reach logs on Ultraxion... A patchwerk(stand still) fight will benift having a legendary?

PS:If you wanna compete for rankings use your skills, don´t think a single item will do that job.

[Deleted]

I'd rather see legendary's have more raid buff things next expansion (like Atiesh or the DW Staff) as opposed to over powered self buffs. It'd make legendaries less required for huge personal DPS gains and instead required for an overall raid DPS gain.

That brings us back to 25 man guilds getting it long before 10 man guilds.
Best progress route would then be 25 -> legendary -> 10 oneshot hc modes
If the 25 mans aren't impossibly tuned, vice versa.