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  1. #1

    Guild Wars 2 Design Philosophy and why you should be looking into this game.

    *Disclaimer* I am not the one who originally created this post, I am copying it from http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/g...-Arenanet.html to try and get some more information out about GW2 to the masses.



    1/02/12 9:03:16 AM#1

    The Tao of Arenanet - The Design Philosophy of Guild Wars 2


    or

    Where Exactly Is All This Innovation?

    or

    Why Are Some People Looking Forward To GW2, But I'm Not?

    An essay in many parts, but mostly pertaining to the design philosophies driving Guild Wars 2, how and why they are innovative, the game features they affect, and why this means that Meowhead is totally hyped for this game while some people just don't see why.

    First off, a warning. This is going to be a wall of text. This is going to be SEVERAL walls of text. I've tried to highlight things like topic headings, so you can skim through a bit, but if you don't want a giant wall of text, you should probably go visit another topic. There is no real TL;DR for this. The closest I can give you is 'I like Arenanet's philosophies but because you're not going to read all this, I can't tell you why in this single sentence'. This is all in no particular order, but I'll try to organize it as best I can. Good luck! (Apologies for formatting. I couldn't get the increase indent/center buttons to work without applying it to the WHOLE post. Not sure why)

    1. You can deliver an AAA MMO with a B2P model.

    How are they planning on doing this?

    This one is pretty obvious. They're going to spend a lot of money and time developing an MMO, then price it B2P style.

    Why is this innovative?

    Because it's never been done before. (That was easy!)

    Why do I believe Arenanet can deliver?

    Well, they can definitely price the game any way they want, and they've already expended AAA level resources making the game. The only question is whether or not it'll be profitable for them. They seem to think so, and NCSoft seems to think so, so the only remaining test is the test of how it works out in reality. If enough people buy the game, don't see any reason why it wouldn't work, though.

    Why your mileage may vary.

    Some people dislike the idea of B2P. Some people think that paying a sub guarantees more quality, because more money is going into the game. Some people think that paying a sub guarantees you'll pay less, because cash shops take all your money. (I'm assuming these two groups of people aren't the same group. Though I would once like to hear somebody arguing that Arenanet will deliver THE definitive MMO quality experience, because it'll be the most expensive to play). Arenanet's cash shop for GW1 suggests they have a pretty good handle on how not to make a P2W cash shop though.

    Why I think you should give it a chance anyway.

    The nice thing about a cash shop, is you only have to buy what you want. Even if you pay nothing, you can still play the game (Subscription games don't work like this at all). If the cash shop works anything like they say they will, you won't even need to spend any money to enjoy the game fully. If you feel uncomfortable about not paying a monthly fee, buy 15 dollars worth of cash shop stuff a month. That should keep you rolling in fancy costumery and extra character slots.

    2. Remove the fight over resources in the PvE world.

    How are they planning on doing this?

    Everybody has their own, seperate loot drop from monsters, so no rolling over loot. Resource nodes can be used by everybody independently, one person harvesting it doesn't stop other people from doing so. All people who participate in a fight or event are rewarded for doing so, without lowering the rewards of others. Because characters are automatically deleveled in lower level areas, high level characters can't come through and steamroll/trivialize content for others. There's no quest objectives in the world that can be done by another person so you have to wait your turn in line.

    Why is this innovative?

    MMORPGs have a long, proud tradition of letting people take stuff from other people, even in supposedly PvE zones. Ninjaing crafting nodes, kill stealing... mob tagging, boss drop tables... all these different things mean that each and every resource in an MMORPG world is being competed over with other people. Arenanet is just removing that whole thing.

    Why do I believe Arenanet can deliver?

    This doesn't actually require any sort of programming wizardry (Other than perhaps the part where they replaced quests with dynamic events, which is more sharing-friendly). It's simply a change in design philosophy. It's not HARD to program this sort of thing. They've already shown it off to an extent in demos. It's not a question of 'can a company do this', but 'will they do this'. ... and Arenanet says they will, and have made it one of the core parts of their philosophy.

    Why your mileage may vary.

    Some people really like competing over everything, whether it be loot, grabbing a mob first, or whatever.

    Why I think you should give it a chance anyway.

    There's still competition in GW2, they've just put it all into the PvP areas. Look at this as your chance to socialize and do things with other people, without unintentionally annoying them. (... and where about the only avenue left to intentionally annoy people is chat. Which is why programmers invented 'turn off general chat' and 'ignore', your two best friends in an MMORPG)


    3. Play with who you want, when you want, how you want.

    How are they planning on doing this?

    With two apparent exceptions (Dungeons, because there's a minimum level needed to do them, and joining WvWvW on an opposing server), you can access any of the content and join in on it. There's a variety of systems in place to facilitate this. First off, you have sidekicking up, which means you can join a friend (Or an obliging stranger), and be the level needed to do higher content. WvWvW apparently has sidekicking to max level (Though you won't be as powerful as a real level 80, you'll at least be somewhat competitive), which means anybody whose played the game for 5 minutes (Long enough to beat the tutorial) can hop on in and start participating. There's automatic deleveling in areas with lower level content, so you can still play lower level things, either to see new things, or to join your friends. With the fast travel system, you can show up at any teleport point you've unlocked, and with the Asura gates, you can travel freely between the 5 starter cities, meaning that even if you're a different race, you can still hop in and join your friends.

    Server transfers are supposed to be convenient and free, so you can even hop on over and play with friends who aren't on the same server as you. Structured PvP has everybody at max level with max equipment and all skills, you can join in on that at any time, with anybody you want to play with. Basically, there's nothing to stop you from playing almost any type of content you want, with almost anybody you choose to do so, with almost no downtime in getting it started. (Putting a team together is assisted by point 7). Less waiting to have fun, and finding people you're allowed to have fun with, more having fun without whoever you want.

    Why is this innovative?

    Other games have done parts of this, but never everything put together, to be so pervasively friendly towards the model of just hopping into the game, and playing with your friends, no waiting.

    Why do I believe Arenanet can deliver?

    Sidekicking isn't a new concept (Though some of their usage of it is new), and fast travel is trivially easy to add. There's nothing really super complex in this, once again this is just a company taking certain philisophical guidelines, and designing core concepts one way, rather than another.

    Why your mileage may vary.

    Some people don't like this sort of thing. Some people want to wait a while, they like slow travel times. They feel the journey is an integral part of a proper game world experience. Some people dislike the idea of being deleveled in lower level areas, because they want to just go through and kick the crap out of things. Some people feel that people shouldn't be able to reach content unless they've earned it, the slow, hard way, and that PvP is best done between people who've spent a lot of time playing (More on the last point later)

    Why I think you should give it a chance anyway.

    People can always do what I'll do. Walk when you have the spare time, enjoy the scenery. Teleport when you absolutely have to get somewhere, immediately (Like to join with friends, when somebody is on a limited time budget). Or teleport not at all. Also, you have to realize that one of the main reasons to delevel people in lower areas is so you can't ruin OTHER people's enjoyment (See point 2). You'll still be badass (Just not trivializing things), just look at it as now you have more of the world you can actually play in a meaningful fashion.

    4. Mass PvP is better when it's bigger.

    How are they planning on doing this?

    Most MMORPGs divide their server's PvP up into lots of little chunks. By level, by area... Arenanet went the other way around. Everybody, regardless of level, is in the same playing field in WvWvW. ... and rather than having multiple areas (Broken up by level), 3 different servers all share the same battlefield, which means that there's effectively 3 times as many people that can possibly fight together. Not only that, WvWvW is designed so you can level up from level 2 (YOu have to go through tutorial first) to max level, including getting skills and weapons, all in here. It has rewards, and rewards the server as a whole, which will assure people have the motivation (Beyond the sheer fun of mass battles) to populate it.

    Why is this innovative?

    Mostly, just the particular solution they picked to do this. Multiple servers going head to head has never been done before.

    Why do I believe Arenanet can deliver?

    Because they're basing the type of three-way fight over DAoC, which proved that it's a viable model, and a lot of fun to boot. My only real reservation is how well they can handle the lag of hundreds of players coming at each other.

    Why your mileage may vary.

    Some people don't like the idea that PvP is in a seperate area, that resets every 2 weeks.

    Why I think you should give it a chance anyway.

    Because this has been done so there can be amazingly epic battles, and so they won't get stuck where one side wins and it never really changes because the advantage is too overwhelming. Maybe it's not to your taste, but try it out and see? There's so many different systems in GW2, that I'd be pretty impressed if you can't get your box price worth out of the game.

    5. Have a relatively low power ceiling, then go for horizontal expansion.

    How are they planning on doing this?

    Max level is supposed to be reached relatively quickly... the time they're approximating between levels (Even at max level) is 90 minutes. That's about 100 hours or so of leveling. Max equipment is supposed to be gained in a variety of ways (Not just one), such as WvWvW, crafting, dungeons, drops, and just buying it with gold/karma. So far as the horizontal expansion, that would be in the variety of equipment (With different, rather than higher, numbers) and unlocking skills and traits. Not to mention the ever important 'learning how to play better'.

    Why is this innovative?

    Because MMORPGs tend to be a lot slower for reaching max level AND have relentless power creep. P2P tends to be slow (and give lots of carrots) because it draws out subscriptions to maximize money. F2P tends to be slow (and offer lots of carrots in cash shop) so they can sell leveling potions.

    Why do I believe Arenanet can deliver?

    This is exactly what they did in GW1. So it can be done, obviously.

    Why your mileage may vary.

    Some people are unhappy unless they're constantly getting more powerful.

    Why I think you should give it a chance anyway.

    Don't underestimate horizontal progression. The ability to slap together new builds, and become good in new areas can be considerably more interesting, because it's not just your numbers getting higher, it's your flexibility improving.

    6. MMO PvP can be done as an E-Sport.

    How are they planning on doing this?

    Structured PvP has everybody at max level, with access to max level equipment and all skills/traits. This means it's a completely equal playing ground, with complete freedom to experiment with builds, and it becomes all about the player, and how well they can play what they've picked, not about how much time they've accumulated in the game. Because even casual PvPers will have access to this, and be able to learn it, it'll broaden the pool of potential players, create a bigger pool for the tiered PvP.

    The game is designed to be quick, visceral, and relatively easy to understand, so it'll be easy to comment on, and fun to watch.

    How is this innovative?

    MMORPG PvP just isn't like this. It's too imbalanced, not just classes, but in the fact that it's more important that you've played a long time to get a big character, rather than playing a long time to get good skills.

    Why do I believe Arenanet can deliver?

    They did it for GW1. Hey, experience counts, right?

    Why your mileage may vary.

    Some people don't like MMORPG PvP E-sport.

    Why I think you should give it a chance anyway.

    Hey, you can hop in at max level and try it. It's not like you're going to be wasting more than a few minutes trying it out. ... and you can always try WvWvW instead. It's also a fast way to hone skills and familiarize yourself with high end skills/abilities, which can help you in picking a class that'll suit you in the long run.

    7. It's not what you play with, it's who you play with.

    How are they planning on doing this?

    All classes are extremely flexible, and can be changed around without monetary cost. They've gotten rid of the holy trinity type setup, so specific classes performing specific roles aren't neccessary. This means that you can play with the players you want to play with, rather than people just because they're the class you happen to need.

    How is this innovative?

    Actually, other MMORPGs sometimes do this (Though Arenanet's specific take is a blend of their own various systems), but it's not common. Anyway, not every single philisophical guiding point has to be completely unique.

    Why do I believe Arenanet can deliver?

    The holy trinity isn't magical and invoilable . It's merely a style of game design. Picking another type of game design and setup creates different group dynamics.

    Why your mileage may vary.

    Some people really, really love the Holy trinity. Hey. Uh, more power to you! Plenty of games to play that have the holy trinity in them still.

    Why I think you should give it a chance anyway.

    A change of pace isn't a bad thing. Why not try it out, and see how it works? Maybe you'll find out you're not as attached to the holy trinity as you thought. Remember, it's just one of many possible methods of designing a game.

    8. The controls of an MMO with the abilities of a MOBA and the physical interactions of an FPS. With a pinch of Magic the Gathering.

    How are they planning on doing this?

    It uses an MMO style control system (Mouse and hotkeys), they've designed the abilities as tools that you can use in diverse ways to adapt to changing situations, and it has physical interactions like allowing you to dodge projectiles, attack from out of range, and attack freely (Ie, using all abilities without a target). (With apologies to Eric Flannum for basically paraphrasing him with point 8 and this answer). Also, like MtG, you have a diverse arsenal of abilities, from which you pick a limited selection that you can use at the current time.

    How is this innovative?

    It's just a different way of putting together a combat system. There may be other games that bear similarities in some ways, but there's nothing that puts everything together with this particular configuration and feel.

    Why do I believe Arenanet can deliver?

    Guild Wars 1 is proof of concept for the MtG + MMO style thing, and the demos shown at many conventions are proof of concept for GW2s particular spin on combat.

    Why your mileage may vary.

    Some people just won't feel as comfortable with this system as they might some other kind.

    Why I think you should give it a chance anyway.

    How many people really only play just ONE type of game? Guild Wars 2 looks like they've made the combat system pretty intuitive and quick to pick up, with lots of depth to master, so maybe it'll grow on you...

    9. Try and have the best soundtrack ever in an MMORPG

    How are they planning on doing this?


    This is a two step process. First, get one of the best video game music composers out there to do the soundtrack. Jeremy Soule serves this purpose nicely. The man has credentials a mile long. Then, realize that some people won't like his music, and eventually most people will get bored of ANYTHING if you hear it long enough. So, Arenanet is not only making it easy for you to have a custom soundtrack and song list... but making it context sensitive. That's right. Not just 'pile in a lot of music and hope it all works out', but actually pick out things like battle music and town music. What soundtrack for a game could possibly be better than one you personally pick out? That's right. I just complimented your taste in music. I'm shameless.

    How is this innovative?

    Context sensitive custom playlist? Yes please.

    Why do I believe Arenanet can deliver?

    Well, they've obviously gotten the Jeremy Soule soundtrack all set up. The rest of it is just programming. Not even fancy programming. Hopefully more MMORPGs follow in these footsteps... not just custom soundtracks, but context sensitive ones.

    Why your mileage may vary.

    You could have horrible taste in music.

    Why I think you should give it a chance anyway.

    ... but I'm sure you don't know that, so don't worry about it.

  2. #2
    Brewmaster Neglesh's Avatar
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    Wall of text crits you for over 9000

    Please post productively. -Edge

    Wow, really?
    Last edited by Neglesh; 2012-01-12 at 08:39 PM.

  3. #3
    Great post for newcomers / thoose who haven't gotten GW2 yet... Good job

  4. #4
    About number two, IMO that's just one piece of the bigger picture.

    Many times when playing other MMORPGs I've realized they are not really what they should or could be. They are single player games which you play in a shared environment. The default state is playing alone, and by default other players are either enemies (if the game has factions and he's of the opposite faction) or a competitor for resources and mobs (if he's of your faction). You can group with him, but that requires some action on your part: sending tells, and inviting into a group. It's not such a hard thing to do as it requires a few clicks at most, but that doesn't change the fact that it's even easier to not group, and when you see another toon entering you screen the first thing you think is "oh great he's going to steal my nodes/mobs". Like I said, it's like playing a single player game but with the random inconvenience of other players in the zone.

    Let's do the easy thing. Nodes are not shared and mobs grant xp and loot to everyone who participates in the killing. That also doesn't change much, since the main activity whlie leveling is questing, and questing normally (always) require clicking of killing a number of very specific things or mobs. Another player passing through the zone has no incentive to stop and help you kill 15 Dire Oversized Rats, because he's on his way to kill 15 Oversized Dire Rats. The game needs activities that can be done by a variety of players that just happen to be there. And that requires several things:

    - These activities can't have prerequisites, everyone needs to be able to join them.
    - They need to be able to accomodate a variable number of players and be fun for all of them.
    - They need to be doable by any combination of classes - you can't have any of these activities require a specific combination of roles.
    - You can't have PvP in these activities, or it will be a chaos for reason too obvious to explain.

    So "removing fights for resources" ties into "dynamic events" and "no trinity" and how world PvP is structured. Considering it as a whole, it's a refreshing new way to approach MMOs and the reason I'm expecting this game.

  5. #5
    I have a question...

    lets say I am level 40 and need for example 1.000.000 experience points to level to 41. I decide to go to a lower area and play with a friend, so lets say I am deleveled at level 20. When I kill a mob with my friend or complete a dynamic event, do I get experience points as if I did that at 40?or at list a slightly less?also what type of loot I get?do I get items of level 20 quality or of level 40?

    Edit: as for the buy to play, I have some concerns...not that it will not worth the money..even if you just level up the classes its worth the money..like a good single player game like skyrim for example...but my concern is :

    1) Afraid to spend more in the developing of the game in fear of not getting back the money they put

    2) Even if they get the money back from the sales, why to keep updating constantly the game and adding more content/features? just so people buy some costumes from the shop? By this I mean that if the shop will not be pay to win and have trivial and vanity items only why to spend money on developing the game further and expect the little sales on vanity items..or if they spend money to develop game further and need to get those money back somehow, then the shop will be pay to win..
    Last edited by papajohn4; 2012-01-12 at 04:17 PM.
    The trick of selling a PvP-MMO is creating the illusion among gankers that they are respectable fighters while protecting them from respectable fights, as their less skilled half would be massacred and quit instead of “HTFU” as they claim.

  6. #6
    Seems redundant. This forum already has a large and highly detailed information thread on GW2. Far better written than the linked article.

    http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...he-uninitiated


    Quote Originally Posted by papajohn4 View Post
    lets say I am level 40 and need for example 1.000.000 experience points to level to 41. I decide to go to a lower area and play with a friend, so lets say I am deleveled at level 20. When I kill a mob with my friend or complete a dynamic event, do I get experience points as if I did that at 40?or at list a slightly less?also what type of loot I get?do I get items of level 20 quality or of level 40?
    Leveling is flat. It takes the same amount of XP to get to level 80 as it did to reach L3, L19 or L36.

    Edit: as for the buy to play, I have some concerns...not that it will not worth the money..even if you just level up the classes its worth the money..like a good single player game like skyrim for example...but my concern is <snip>
    The first Guild Wars was B2P and is/was highly successful and profitable. The model has been shown to; A. work, B. has been done before (inaccurately stated in the article) and, C. development of new content was not majorly affected by GW1 business model.

    So B2P is not really a concern vis-a-vis other games with a subscription model and most importantly, a very different design structure.

    Arena.net have never sold so-called "Pay-2-Win" items in the GW1 store. In a game where vanity items are highly prized, selling costumes and such for $10 a pop is a highly profitable avenue without any impact on gameplay.

    There is an aspect in which part of the goal of Guild Wars is looking spectacular. More so than having tier XIII shoulderpads. Gear is not treated the same way as in other games.

    Also, MMOChampion's multi-quote function sucks.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-01-12 at 06:24 PM.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Leveling is flat. It takes the same amount of XP to get to level 80 as it did to reach L3, L19 or L36.
    Time to level increases to a certain point and then plateaus last I remember, so it's not flat from the start.

  8. #8
    Yea, I think it was exponential till level 20 or 30 (can't recall). But flat afterward. Though with scaling and so on, I don't think it will matter much.

    We don't really know what level gain will be like. It could be totally trivial like in GW1 till you reach that plateau.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Time to level increases to a certain point and then plateaus last I remember, so it's not flat from the start.
    From the link that Fencers gave.
    Quote Originally Posted by omlech View Post
    Leveling – In GW2 the level cap has been raised to 80, though like everything else ANet is looking to innovate here as well. Most MMOs all have a very exponential leveling curve where each level takes progressively longer than the level before it. ANet has designed a linear curve where each level takes only a tiny bit longer than the last so you’re never going to dread stretches of leveling where leveling hits a huge incline. Their aim is to eliminate that grind feeling. Right from level 1 you’re playing the game, not waiting to hit that one special number that says “okay you can play the game now, for real this time”. ANet has said that once you hit level 30 it will take an average player about 90 min per level past that point.
    So from what I can understand, it will be increasing for each level 1-30, then after 30 it will be a constant XP rate.

  10. #10
    Yea, supposedly. No one really knows exactly how much the exponential curve is pre-30 though. It could be a fairly quick ride to 30, if Anet's previous game is anything to go by (possible to hit cap in tutorial-vile in GW1). Also, scaling makes some of that level disparity of other games a non-factor in GW2.

    Would not be surprised if at worst, L30 was a couple of days worth of play. At least for people not awful at the game.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    There is an aspect in which part of the goal of Guild Wars is looking spectacular. More so than having tier XIII shoulderpads. Gear is not treated the same way as in other games.
    Yes. For one thing, GW2 also includes a crap ton of different dyes that you can use to color your gear however you want. I liked that feature in DAoC as you could be wearing similar gear to someone else but look completely different/unique. It's a fun way to waste a little time and people often complement (or ridicule) you for your style. There are going to be some pieces of gear that are unique to certain Dynamic Events or dungeons so people can still distinguish some of the things you have accomplished in the game from what you are wearing, but for the most part the gear is simply what you are wearing and your skills with your character are much more important from a functional standpoint.

  12. #12
    Dreadlord Verazh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neglesh View Post
    Wall of text crits you for over 9000

    Please post productively. -Edge
    If you dont want to read why are you on a forum then?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Neglesh View Post
    Wall of text crits you for over 9000

    Please post productively. -Edge
    I lol'd.
    On topic: Massive PvP has been done before, at least, in my eyes at Lineage 2 castle sieges. But even those weren't cross-server, it was just a massive PvP factioned or not (you could go even w/o a clan or alliance afaik) and I bet major sieges could pretty easily be 2000+ players.

  14. #14
    Brewmaster Neglesh's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Verazh View Post
    If you dont want to read why are you on a forum then?
    Because it's the only worthwhile sub-forum I visit thank you very much.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Scripted Sigma View Post
    I lol'd.
    On topic: Massive PvP has been done before, at least, in my eyes at Lineage 2 castle sieges. But even those weren't cross-server, it was just a massive PvP factioned or not (you could go even w/o a clan or alliance afaik) and I bet major sieges could pretty easily be 2000+ players.
    It was also done in Warhammer and Runes of Magic. The latter, cross server with rankings.

  16. #16
    Oh well, never played those games.
    Last I remember at Lineage 2 (C5-6) lag wasn't that much of an issue at castle sieges. If your computer can handle it, you were okay to fight. Dunno how NC Soft pulled that out, but last time I checked you can't expect that from WoW (sadly).

    This is actually a good thing to wait for!

  17. #17
    The Patient Procadin's Avatar
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    this needs pictures to make it more entertaining to read. cuz, really, it's really good info that ppl should know about (y)

  18. #18
    On topic of mass PvP, I think battlefield 3 actually made a very good showing of what it's good for and what it's bad for gameplay wise.

    When you want immersion of "chaotic battlefield", you go to the big 64-player servers.

    When you want orderly gameplay, you stick to 16-32 players servers. In general, the lower amount of players, the more your performance affects PvP and the more interesting it becomes to PvP from personal point of view (until certain game-dependent number when diminished returns outweigh gains).

    Chaos is fun though. Big 64-player mashups with heavy hardware ripping buildings to pieces, mortars landing all over the place and snipers hiding in every building are fun, even if team success is largely disconnected from any single player's (and even squad's) skill. If arenanet can make this sort of "controlled chaos" to actually work (read: maps will be small enough to create actual battlefields), it will likely be quite relaxing and fun to play. I would even argue that minor lags (more so then in the rest of the game) wouldn't deter the "fun" aspect.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Neglesh View Post
    Because it's the only worthwhile sub-forum I visit thank you very much.
    I think edge's point was if you have something to add feel free but if you just want to post a meme and nothing else skip pressing that reply button.

    Who is John Galt?

  20. #20
    I really hope GW2 does well. I figure I'll spend some time there. I don't see it becoming my main game, but I'd like many of it's elements to be absorbed into the next generation.
    Quote Originally Posted by xxAkirhaxx View Post
    Blizzard is a conglomerate that through lower sub numbers has raised revenue. They're not stupid, they're just not catering to you.
    Yes yes, I know, the sky just bonked you on the head, casuals are taking over the government, and some baddie just got a raid drop... I think you'll live.

    http://darisdroppings.wordpress.com

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