Is it that hard to make a decent pvp game?

[Bigbazz]

PvP MMO, obviously its that hard to make a good PvP mmo, unless you have all the same classes or ridiciulously simplistic classes then proper balance is nearly impossible.

But there are plenty of great PvP games.

Counterstrike
Battlefield 3
Starcraft 2

iRacing
Rfactor
Gran Turismo 5


Just a few out of many, main factor is that they are not MMORPG games. In my eyes racing simulations are one of the highest forms of real competitive skill based pvp.

[SkySonata]

I would argue it isn't hard. It's down to how much you're willing to put into development. The effort pays off. Some devs care, some do not.

[Fencers]

I'd strongly disagree with you here. Having robust, deep, and BALANCED PvP is very hard to achieve without resorting to cheap tactics like class limiting (i.e. only have 3-4 classes) or limiting the scope of the PvP (i.e. imagine if WoW only had WSG and didn't have to balance around any other types of PvP).

Some of that stuff belongs to other systems, however.

I can write a perfect PVP document and it's transition from DD to implementation would retain 100% of the design. PVP is quite easy to create from a design POV. And offer no meta gameplay concession in of itself. Only meta from other sources can provide that- which is where the balancing and equally "robustness" of PVP comes into play.

But no, you can kinda prove PVP as the simplest game type to design in an ideal sense.

[Bigbazz]

In the same way it takes skill to be good at aiming when it actually matters (which is rarely on a stationary target), or knowing how to react to an enemy attack in an RTS (e.g. what units to use to counter them), or even knowing the good points of a map (for vantage, resource or other important asset).

You can't say that Racing games are the highest form of skill-based competition when skill is so subjective. By that, some people will be great at FPS, but bad at other types of games, while others are great at racing, or great at RTS, but bad at the others. Someone who's great at FPS wouldn't be able to identify skill in other genres, and vice versa.

To be fair, i think all of them require a similar level of skill, simply because they're much more binary than an MMORPG. In an MMORPG, you've got a lot of spells and abilities and each needs to be balanced around the others, along with movement and line of sight and all the other aspects. In racing and FPS, you've got to balance around a lot less aspects. In RTS, sure, you have to balance the units and movement, but there's not nearly as many aspect as there is in an MMORPG. Only in an MMORPG do you have to balance at a character AND game level.

I'm not saying it to demean players of other types of games, or to say that racers are more skilled, and obviously someone who is a great FPS gamer doesnt have to be a great sim racer (though I think the really good ones would be). Racing simulations are hard because to just drive the cars at a respectable pace it takes a lot of skill, actually racing them takes nerves of steel and a high concentration level, you have to be consistant over a long period of time where you make real time calculations in milliseconds whilst also using tyre and fuel strategy to your advantage, there is a reason that people call the best guys "aliens" because to normal people, what they do and how well they can do it is seemingly alien.

Which is why I think it is one of the highest forms of skill based competitive pve. Top WoW PvP'ers can display a great ammount of skill, but the game is never balanced close enough where unfair advantages or disadvantages are not a factor.

[Taros]

Once upon a time there was Ultima Online. I'd say that was the pinnacle of balanced and "skilled" pvp in a MMO. I'd pay good money to go back to that. I never did find FPS to be too skill oriented, but if I were to choose one I'd choose Rainbow Six 3. Miss that too.

[Deleted]

PvP MMO, obviously its that hard to make a good PvP mmo, unless you have all the same classes or ridiciulously simplistic classes then proper balance is nearly impossible.

But there are plenty of great PvP games.

Counterstrike
Battlefield 3

They are great, but far from perfect. The recently introduced FAMAS is simply ridiculous, it kills about 10% faster than the second ranked assault rifle, and almost twice as fast as the useless AN-94. Also, the USAS12 with frag rounds is a joke on city maps. It's about the equivalent of a geared blood dk. Useless at range, but utterly destroying shit in close combat without leaving the opponent a chance to do anything about it.

Counterstrike also went through a myriad of balancing patches over the last decade. I remember everyone running around with the scoped m4 in early betas, or making walls with riot shields later on to completely block entrances on larger servers later in the release version. Thankfully css got rid of that thing :x. Though the hitboxes are pretty screwed up in css (look up vids on youtube on that subject).

On the subject of pvp games in general, yes I think it's quite hard, especially with RPGs. What I don't get is why it takes them so long to fix clear and present issues that don't take alot of thought. Vengeance got finally changed after weeks of dks farming melees, yet vial of shadows is still instantgibbing people left and right, especially combined with 2t13 rogue setbonus which makes your dance even deadlier. These are things that are quite obvious and should have been considered beforehand, or within days of releasing the content.

[Sackman]

I can't miss

---------- Post added 2012-01-12 at 07:25 PM ----------



I'd keep it simple, even, but require skill, tactics, etc. Look at chess for instants... Most balanced pvp game eva.

In otherwords, you would have 1 class, 2 opponents.