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  1. #41
    Seems to me that the "when it's ready" release date should sooth our fears for GW2 at least.
    But I guess the difference between a game and a car is that it won't actually kill you if the game has a fault...
    Game consumers traditionally don't have the power to demand such high levels of completion. Car buyers do. The CEO of a company who buys a BMW can demand more than ur average gamer.
    This is gradually changing however I think. And companies like Anet realise this and are taking gamers seriously.
    We are LEGION after all xD

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Balfire View Post
    While you are correct WAR had more than most, it was mainly EAs fault for forcing an early release from Mythic. It was just an example if players had stuck around the coming months it would still be alive today, I stuck it out for a few months and they did a fantastic job with that game sadly even I jumped ship eventually but that was because of the shrinking community, not the game itself which I loved.
    I understand the problems with the rushed release quite well. Ergo:

    That is the type of MMO launch that you shouldn't give a pass to-- as it was rushed and sloppy. See Also: Final Fantasy 14.
    Also Warhammer didn't "die", per se. It chugged along for years and is still going. It even had a small resurgence of subscriptions at one point. WAR was a niche game to begin with but the production was too rushed. Off topic, somewhat, but its a great example of what we [consumers] rightly shouldn't support.

    Other games are not necessarily rushed so much as they simply don't have funding for AAA production/development; Fallen Earth, Mortal, Spellborn, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Roose View Post
    Why only use beta to test when you can get paying customers to test for you? That is exactly what is happening right now in TOR. Beta part 2.
    Kinda no? I alpha and beta tested the game for like 3 months. There is only so much testers can catch.

    Games would need to be in development for simply unreasonable amount of time to be 100% perfect. Or even 90%.

    It's one thing to ask us to interact with an NPC 400 times. It's another thing entirely when 600 players are clicking the same NPC at the same time with latency from 0.7~6.0ms while smashing Spacebar and spamming /getdown.

    Bugs happen. Exacerbated by the unwieldiness of a game world populated by X number of players doing random shit. Design decisions one may not like != broken, unfinished, unplayable or rushed product as many often scream into the din of the internet.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-01-14 at 04:22 AM.

  3. #43
    because MMOs are far bigger

    also, its expected that they will be releasing constant patches and then expansions

  4. #44


    Ok, apparently at no point was I clear enough that I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT BUGS, PERIOD. Yes, every piece of software in the world has bugs and it is literally unavoidable. But what is unavoidable is poorly designed and implemented features and that and ONLY that is what I'm trying to get at, bugs shouldn't even enter the discussion.

    Let's say for example you were playing a new Mario game, let's say that jumping in the game didn't quite feel very smooth and hindered your gameplay. Considering that is such an integral part of the game, it would be marked down severely because of janky controls. Now let's take everyone's favorite darling in the MMOverse right now, TOR has an animation system that actually hinders gameplay by syncing abilities by the animations rather than the actual cast times or GCD. Because of this gameplay isn't as fluid as it should be, abilities take longer than they should to fire or don't fire at all. This same thing could be seen in Warhammer with the combat system.

    So I ask why is it that people completely gloss over the fact that TOR isn't a perfectly responsive game when combat and ability usage is ABSOLUTELY INTEGRAL to the gameplay? If this were any other game in any other genre it would have been picked out and torn apart, but yet it isn't outside of the hardcore MMO community who is VERY aware of these sorts of things. Imagine you're driving a car in Gran Turismo and at least once an hour (just an estimate) your car just locks up and slams into a wall, but this isn't just a fluke that happened to you, but something that happens to EVERYONE. Would this go ignored? You bet your ass it wouldn't. So once again, I ask why do MMOs get this kind of pass from people? This was but ONE single example of the MANY, MANY examples I could give but I hope that I've now made the point I was trying to get across originally. Note that I didn't pick out TOR just to be picking on it, but it's the latest MMO out and is the biggest culprit of bad design (FFXIV aside) since WAR.

  5. #45
    Ok, apparently at no point was I clear enough that I WAS NOT TALKING ABOUT BUGS, PERIOD. Yes, every piece of software in the world has bugs and it is literally unavoidable. But what is unavoidable is poorly designed and implemented features and that and ONLY that is what I'm trying to get at, bugs shouldn't even enter the discussion.
    Don't think poorly designed or implemented features get a "pass". Even well designed games get trashed left and right. As it often comes down to; "I don't like how this thing works". Not any actual flaw in design.

    About TOR specifically; the combat response is actually quite good. The timer on activation of skills is just off enough those used to other timings (Warcraft, example) find it irksome. Understandable.

    I actually find Warcraft's combat to be the most sluggish of current MMOs after having taken a long break from the game for years and only recently returning. Kinda makes me not want to level my Hunter anymore because I "feel" (psychological quirk) stuff is not happening in a way that is correct or speedy. Whereas in Rift I feel combat is lightning quick and little dross in the delay of skill chains. In TOR, I have more active presses between GCDs than in most other MMOs.

    Broken, poorly designed or flawed? Most likely, personal preference.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-01-14 at 08:47 AM.

  6. #46
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    The reason they do it, is they can get away with it.
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  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    Once upon a time, yes, Blizzard would have been a bad example. However, lately, they are doing an exceptional job on their content at release. While Blizzard was once well known for extended server maintenance especially on patch days, they seem to have gotten the patching process down without nearly so many issues.

    I stand by my earlier post about Blizzard, they really are setting the example at this point in time. I look forward to D3 and MoP.

    On a side note, there have been several amazing Indie games out in the last couple years. My favorite is by a small studio called Paradox/Arrow head, who released Magicka early 2011. Magicka was released with numerous bugs and game play issues, effectively preventing it from ever becoming a huge hit.

    It did well in terms of cost to profit ratio, partially due to a low price point and distribution via Steam. It's only saving grace is that Paradox released weekly patches until they got all the bugs fixed.



    This is extremely poor logic. MMOs might be in a constant state of development, but they are still in a finished state between content releases.



    Wow's launch was an utter disaster for reasons that had nothing to do with the quality of the game or how finished it was.

    - Wow launched over a holiday weekend (Thanksgiving).
    - Wow sold over 240,000 copies in the first 24 hours, and another 110,000 copies over the weekend.
    - Blizzard only had 40 servers at launch (capacity was about 100,000 players).
    - Blizzard rushed to add another 40 servers over thanksgiving weekend.
    - There was no precedence set by an MMO to give Blizzard some idea of what to expect.

    You can't expect a company who simply wasn't prepared for that kind of popularity to perform flawlessly under those circumstances.



    There's a difference between problems caused by a broken game and problems caused by servers operating above capacity.
    To the bolded, I have to disagree. While Activision-Blizzard products are certainly quality products and nothing to thumb your nose at, they are also unbalanced and often broken in some areas. Starcraft II multiplayer is an unbalanced mess, and WoW PvP is no different. That isn't quality at that point, that is a severe mistake that has gone years unchecked.

    As for your list of why Activision-Blizzard is somehow "immune" to the what could only be described as a tragedy of a release, that just isn't right. You cannot exempt Activision-Blizzard from the mistakes at launch simply because they "didn't know". If I was to go outside right now, see someone's car running with the door open, and get inside and go for a joyride, but still manage to return it, would that exempt me from the crime? No, I still did the foolish deed of stealing someone elses car, regardless of whether or not I knew it would blow up in my face.

    The analogy isn't too great, but the point is there. It doesn't matter that WoW launched over a holiday, it doesn't matter how many copies they sold, it doesn't matter how many servers they had, it doesn't matter they rushed to add more servers, and it especially doesn't matter that another MMO didn't pave the way for Activision-Blizzard. That last one is especially bullshit, as MMO's like SWG, Everquest, and Ultima Online were very popular. They don't have to do another companies job.

    Activision-Blizzard dun goof'd, and they are extraordinarily lucky they were able to rectify their fuck up in the end. There are no ifs ands or buts about it.

    I won't even go into the tirade I could spew about the list of bugs, or errors, or the lack of features WoW had at the start either, because frankly, that IS something that is expected at launch. What isn't expected and should be the furthest thing from acceptable, is your servers to fail and be an abysmal wreck for nearly a year before finally becoming fixed.
    Last edited by A Challenger!; 2012-01-14 at 09:12 AM. Reason: Fixed a miriad of typos and grammar problems

  8. #48
    Don't think poorly designed or implemented features get a "pass". Even well designed games get trashed left and right. As it often comes down to; "I don't like how this thing works". Not any actual flaw in design.
    Using Tor as an example, even just here on these forums, anyone who brings up anything that would show Tor as being less than flawless, gets called a troll and flamed as such, no matter how diplomatic they go about discussing the issue. That's the 'pass' that he's talking about, and it's obvious that people refuse to take an objective look at certain things, namely MMOs.

    About TOR specifically; the combat response is actually quite good. The timer on activation of skills is just off enough those used to other timings (Warcraft, example) find it irksome. Understandable.

    I actually find Warcraft's combat to be the most sluggish of current MMOs after having taken a long break from the game for years and only recently returning. Kinda makes me not want to level my Hunter anymore because I "feel" (psychological quirk) stuff is not happening in a way that is correct or speedy. Whereas in Rift I feel combat is lightning quick and little dross in the delay of skill chains. In TOR, I have more active presses between GCDs than in most other MMOs.

    Broken, poorly designed or flawed? Most likely, personal preference.
    Personal preference? Really? When we are talking about combat in a game, what makes it enjoyable is how well it is executed. In most games you will end up in situations where you have a small window in which to make a huge difference, and unresponsive abilities ruin that experience completely. Hunters in Wow were revamped for the launch of Cata to use a new resource system. For people who are used to having mana as a hunter resource, it does feel awkward and clunky. After some time spent working out a good rotation, it is perfectly possible to get to a point where hunters feel tight and responsive again. It all depends on the player.

    However, in Tor, this is not the case. No matter how I go about my rotation as a player, combat system is restricted by the duration of ability animations. There is no way to play around it, and when faced with combat that is literally not doing what I need it to do when I tell it to do it, players like me are more than likely not going to give that game the time of day. It's not a matter of GCD, rotational choices, or personal preference.

    It's a matter of this being the new MMO on the block, everyone (including competitive players) wants to give it a test drive. By having combat that is bound by animation duration, BW is going to alienate a lot of people unless it gets fixed. So why Tor gets a pass for things like this, are beyond myself and the OP.

    To the bolded, I have to disagree. While Activision-Blizzard products are certainly quality products and nothing to thumb your nose at, they are also unbalanced and often broken in some areas. Starcraft II multiplayer is an unbalanced mess, and WoW PvP is no different. That isn't quality at that point, that is a severe mistake that has gone years unchecked.
    Unbalanced how? I find it funny that most people who want to bring up balancing issues in Blizzard games tend to think that Balance means 'everyone being able to do the same things regardless of circumstances in game.' In Wow, classes are balanced around team play. In SC2, races are balanced around map play. In those regards, both games are almost perfectly balanced.

    As for your list of why Activision-Blizzard is somehow "immune" to the what could only be described as a tragedy of a release, that just isn't right. You cannot exempt Activision-Blizzard from the mistakes at launch simply because they "didn't know". If I was to go outside right now, see someone's car running with the door open, and get inside and go for a joyride, but still manage to return it, would that exempt me from the crime? No, I still did the foolish deed of stealing someone elses car, regardless of whether or not I knew it would blow up in my face.
    So you're saying that Blizzard should have been psychic and known that their game would not only sell out the first week of release, but that there would be an overwhelming number of people concurrently online? By that logic, Blizzard should have launched with enough server space for 13 million people. Damn you Blizzard, damn you for not being psychic. [/sarcasm]

    All sarcasm aside, there is no way they could have known that their very first MMO venture would be such a hit that everyone and their mother would be buying it out and overloading the servers over the holiday weekend. There was no precedence for it, there was no way they could anticipate that happening. If a companies biggest flaw is that they just didn't expect to be so popular, that's just modesty, not tragedy.

    Activision-Blizzard dun goof'd, and they are extraordinarily lucky they were able to rectify their fuck up in the end. There are no ifs ands or buts about it.
    Blizzard isn't lucky, they had the dedication of hard working employees that worked tirelessly around the clock to make sure things were smoothed out, post launch. These individuals sacrificed sleep and time off with their families to make sure they could bring the Wow experience to all those that expected it.

    I won't even go into the tirade I could spew about the list of bugs, or errors, or the lack of features WoW had at the start either, because frankly, that IS something that is expected at launch. What isn't expected and should be the furthest thing from acceptable, is your servers to fail and be an abysmal wreck for nearly a year before finally becoming fixed.
    Let's just assume for a minute that Blizzard knew exactly how popular their game was going to be, and launched with enough server capacity and game copies for 13 million players. 95% of the problems you would go on a tirade about, wouldn't have ever happened. What Blizzard experienced with the launch of Wow had everything to do with being unable to anticipate the success and popularity of your own product, and nothing to do with game design or bugs that break the game.

    Also, Wow didn't get a pass back then. It got heavily criticized by anyone and everyone for it's flaws, and Blizzard worked hard as they could to fix everything and bring players the kind of gaming experience they expected. I don't see your points as holding any merit, as we are talking about two completely different scenarios at two completely different points in the MMO industry.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin
    Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

    Every time you have a question that begins with "Why?" that is about what other people prefer to do with their own goddamn time, come back here, and reread the first row of this post. That will ALWAYS be the answer to your question. Have a nice day.

  9. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    Using Tor as an example, even just here on these forums, anyone who brings up anything that would show Tor as being less than flawless, gets called a troll and flamed as such, no matter how diplomatic they go about discussing the issue. That's the 'pass' that he's talking about, and it's obvious that people refuse to take an objective look at certain things, namely MMOs.



    Personal preference? Really? When we are talking about combat in a game, what makes it enjoyable is how well it is executed. In most games you will end up in situations where you have a small window in which to make a huge difference, and unresponsive abilities ruin that experience completely. Hunters in Wow were revamped for the launch of Cata to use a new resource system. For people who are used to having mana as a hunter resource, it does feel awkward and clunky. After some time spent working out a good rotation, it is perfectly possible to get to a point where hunters feel tight and responsive again. It all depends on the player.

    However, in Tor, this is not the case. No matter how I go about my rotation as a player, combat system is restricted by the duration of ability animations. There is no way to play around it, and when faced with combat that is literally not doing what I need it to do when I tell it to do it, players like me are more than likely not going to give that game the time of day. It's not a matter of GCD, rotational choices, or personal preference.

    It's a matter of this being the new MMO on the block, everyone (including competitive players) wants to give it a test drive. By having combat that is bound by animation duration, BW is going to alienate a lot of people unless it gets fixed. So why Tor gets a pass for things like this, are beyond myself and the OP.



    Unbalanced how? I find it funny that most people who want to bring up balancing issues in Blizzard games tend to think that Balance means 'everyone being able to do the same things regardless of circumstances in game.' In Wow, classes are balanced around team play. In SC2, races are balanced around map play. In those regards, both games are almost perfectly balanced.



    So you're saying that Blizzard should have been psychic and known that their game would not only sell out the first week of release, but that there would be an overwhelming number of people concurrently online? By that logic, Blizzard should have launched with enough server space for 13 million people. Damn you Blizzard, damn you for not being psychic. [/sarcasm]

    All sarcasm aside, there is no way they could have known that their very first MMO venture would be such a hit that everyone and their mother would be buying it out and overloading the servers over the holiday weekend. There was no precedence for it, there was no way they could anticipate that happening. If a companies biggest flaw is that they just didn't expect to be so popular, that's just modesty, not tragedy.



    Blizzard isn't lucky, they had the dedication of hard working employees that worked tirelessly around the clock to make sure things were smoothed out, post launch. These individuals sacrificed sleep and time off with their families to make sure they could bring the Wow experience to all those that expected it.



    Let's just assume for a minute that Blizzard knew exactly how popular their game was going to be, and launched with enough server capacity and game copies for 13 million players. 95% of the problems you would go on a tirade about, wouldn't have ever happened. What Blizzard experienced with the launch of Wow had everything to do with being unable to anticipate the success and popularity of your own product, and nothing to do with game design or bugs that break the game.

    Also, Wow didn't get a pass back then. It got heavily criticized by anyone and everyone for it's flaws, and Blizzard worked hard as they could to fix everything and bring players the kind of gaming experience they expected. I don't see your points as holding any merit, as we are talking about two completely different scenarios at two completely different points in the MMO industry.
    We get it, you hate TOR, and you are obsessed to the point of blindness with Activision-Blizzard. What else do you want us to know? That you think you are somehow holier-than-thou by using a cute little /sarcasm emote on an internet forum?

    Activision-Blizzard doesn't have to be psychic, and you can act an ass all you want, but the fact of the matter is Activision-Blizzard screwed up big time, and one forum user who thinks them god cannot exempt them from that. Psychic has nothing to do with it, what it has to do with, is they purposefully released the game during the holidays to bolster sales, and this came to bite them in the ass. That is their own fault, the fact you think they should be denied fault is sickening, and shows how lacking merit your opinion is, not mine.

    Fact is though, you spout nothing but opinions. The true fact is thus; Activision-Blizzard messed up big time, and no amount of excuses that you spew can change that. You also think that if they knew how successful their game would have been, the game would not have been as buggy and rough around the edges as it were in the beginning? Can you not even see past your ignorance for two seconds and realize it is part of the growth process of MMO's to have fault in the beginning?

    Just stop posting in this thread, it is evident you cannot speak without typing a wall of text that is nothing but biased sycophantic opinion on how you believe Activision-Blizzard is innocent simply because "they didn't know".

    You also believe that the unbalanced PvP of WoW and Starcraft II are normal? You must be kidding. Have you played Starcraft II PvP? Do you even PvP in WoW? Both are so broken it is sad, and you cannot even see past your own ignorance to realize that even Activision-Blizzard itself realizes this. Heart of the Swarm is trying to fix the Starcraft II balance issues, but we can only hope that works.

    I'm closing with this; TOR is not flawless, but that is part of the growth process of a new MMO, to fix its flaws and grow. You however do not get to talk about an objective stance in the matter though, because everything you have written thus far is subjective. You look at everything from the view of someone who adores Activision-Blizzard, that is fine and I do not chastise you for it, but you let it blind you.

    Activision-Blizzard is not perfect, and "not knowing" does not exempt someone from their crimes. You proved that when you put words in my mouth by saying that I said WoW got a free pass back then. We all know it didn't. Be glad your love child was able to pull itself from the ashes.

    EDIT: A quick edit for clarification, I am do not hate Activision-Blizzard, and I do not believe TOR exempt from any of the issues that plague it. I do however believe that Activision-Blizzard made a risky gambit that they were not prepared for to boost sales by utilizing a holiday, and it blew up in their face. They committed the deed, and should not be exempt from judgment. Thankfully, they weren't. I also believe that TOR, given time, can become a successful MMO on a near-dead market.

    Take of that how you will, but I am looking at everything from an objective, realistic point of view.
    Last edited by A Challenger!; 2012-01-14 at 06:37 PM.

  10. #50
    I play an Assassin. There is absolutely no ability delay whatsoever. Every ability fires the instant I press the button. There is no waiting to finish an animation. Animations in general take never longer than a GCD, so there isn't even an overlap possible. Stuff which is off the GCD interestingly goes of instantly, no matter what my character is doing at that specific moment.
    There's only one tiny problem: it's not possible to"pre-cast" a free targeted aoe ability as long as the GCD hasn't finished. It's annoying, because you lose the time you need to place the reticle, rather than firing it off the instant the GCD finishes. But that's not delay, it's a small flaw in the general design.

    I can't speak for other classes above 10 though, besides that I experienced some weird behaviour with the Agent and his cover, but that was in beta. So I can't comment on anything else besides the Assassin for the moment.

    Based on my observations I'd guess that there is no general ability delay, but rather a problem with some select abilities. Judging from the sheep effect on the official forums I deem it rather possible that the problem got, like all the other ones, blown way way out of proportion. Now you have the situation where all the rabbid followers, with absolutely no clue what ability delay/lag really would look like, are crying and stomping like little cry babies, demanding something fixed that isn't nearly as broken as they make it look.

    If you read too much into all the rage over there you can easily get sucked into it. I speak from experience, because after not playing for a few days and taking part in the discussion about the high texture detail problem, I started to believe that the game indeed would look like utter shit. In reality though, if you play with everything maxed and some AA mixed into it, the game simply looks gorgeous. Yes, if you look too close textures get blurry. In reality though you would only zoom in that close to make screenshots that you gonna use to complain about the texture quality on the forums anyway.
    My own suspicion is that the Universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    Using Tor as an example, even just here on these forums, anyone who brings up anything that would show Tor as being less than flawless, gets called a troll and flamed as such, no matter how diplomatic they go about discussing the issue. That's the 'pass' that he's talking about, and it's obvious that people refuse to take an objective look at certain things, namely MMOs.
    While the second half of this is true, the first half not so much.

    Many things people bring up as issues are not flaws of design. Many issues are personal dislikes or a technical problem on the player's end. Which we see leveled at just about every game in equal measure.

    There are certainly those players with a well reasoned dislike of a particular game element from COD to Warcraft to Skyrim. In terms of design, most players don't have a clue of what they speak upon.

    Personal preference? Really? <snip>
    Gonna snip this but you are contradicting yourself.

    Getting used to the tactile feel of combat in one game or another is personal. Rather it be a Hunter in Warcraft or a Jedi in the other.

    To use an extreme example; some folks are just peachy with the cycled animations of Aion. That isn't a flaw in Aion's combat design, it's a different design bound to set animations.

    There is more input between GCDs in TOR than most other hotkey MMOs. The timing differences in animation and ICDs are naturally quite different than in Warcraft. There are some skills Bioware admit they will refine to create better flow between cycles (Force push and so forth). Though this is kinda the way they wanted combat to feel.

    The pass I give it is that it is a different system. Not a flawed system. As the latter is a personal preference among each player. Many are fine with the combat in TOR, while some players find Warcraft's combat queues quite off putting.

  12. #52

    mmo's need space to be fixed

    mario is a single player game prob on a console that prob wont get fixed it will just be that way for that game whereas mmo's are fixed updated and improved alot more often

    any decent mature player will be able to understand the process that has only just begun and be willing to work with it
    and i am currently haveing a major bug in swtor that may of may not be a deal breaker but i will keep trying to work with them and get it sorted becuase its best for the game and me if i had no flex in my feelings on bugs this one would have me killing bioware employees

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Scyo View Post
    I play an Assassin. There is absolutely no ability delay whatsoever.
    I used to feel the same way with the classes I play (Sith Warrior and Operative), but I have experienced the delay bug from time to time. Oddly, it seems to operate like a memory leak. I encounter it in some locations, and not others. It isn't enough to make me quit, but I do understand the anger and criticism that is garnered from it.

  14. #54
    We get it, you hate TOR, and you are obsessed to the point of blindness with Activision-Blizzard. What else do you want us to know? That you think you are somehow holier-than-thou by using a cute little /sarcasm emote on an internet forum?
    If you think that I hate Tor, you obviously don't get it. If you think that trolling/flaming me is a good way to make a point, go for it.

    You also believe that the unbalanced PvP of WoW and Starcraft II are normal? You must be kidding. Have you played Starcraft II PvP? Do you even PvP in WoW? Both are so broken it is sad, and you cannot even see past your own ignorance to realize that even Activision-Blizzard itself realizes this. Heart of the Swarm is trying to fix the Starcraft II balance issues, but we can only hope that works.
    All I do in any game I play is pvp. On top of that, I have higher than average ratings in the games I play. Like I said before, in the context of team play and map design, both games are balanced. You can disagree with that all you want to, but it's a fact.

    Activision-Blizzard is not perfect, and "not knowing" does not exempt someone from their crimes. You proved that when you put words in my mouth by saying that I said WoW got a free pass back then. We all know it didn't. Be glad your love child was able to pull itself from the ashes.
    No one said Blizzard is perfect. What WAS said is that Blizzard is setting the standard these days with their games. Standards for quality, content, and entertainment value.

    While the second half of this is true, the first half not so much.
    Really? I barely mention Tor here, and there's already someone flaming me about it.

    Many things people bring up as issues are not flaws of design. Many issues are personal dislikes or a technical problem on the player's end. Which we see leveled at just about every game in equal measure.
    Design flaws exist when a game has a particular function, but it could be done a lot better, or there's a gap where a function should be, but isn't. It isn't a matter of personal dislikes or technical problems on the player's end, if combat is frustrating because it doesn't function smoothly. It's not the player's fault that he pushes a button and nothing happens. It's not the players fault that there is too much time between pushing a button and an ability going off because the animation hasn't finished yet.

    I'll agree with you that players can be exceedingly picky or particular. I'll also agree with you that many players are perfectly happy and content with Tor. But I won't agree that a game launching with design flaws is simply a case of players choosing to be picky.

    Gonna snip this but you are contradicting yourself.

    Getting used to the tactile feel of combat in one game or another is personal. Rather it be a Hunter in Warcraft or a Jedi in the other.
    It's not just 'tactile feel.' It's the fact that according to the game itself, as soon as my cast bar is finished and the GCD is refreshed, I should be able to cast another spell. Instead, the ability animation is preventing that from happening. The fact is that spell animations, cast times, and GCDs are not working in the way that players expect them to, and there are thousand page threads on the main website documenting as much. Bioware has acknowledged that it's a known issue they are working to resolve.

    Telling me that I just don't like the way that it's supposed to be is kind of silly.

    The pass I give it is that it is a different system. Not a flawed system. As the latter is a personal preference among each player. Many are fine with the combat in TOR, while some players find Warcraft's combat queues quite off putting.
    But it isn't a different system. It's nearly identical in every way, except for the way ability animations prevent other abilities from going off. Arguing that it was intentionally designed like that by Bio Ware is sort of silly considering they have acknowledged the issue and are working on it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jevlin
    Why? Because fuck you, that's why.

    Every time you have a question that begins with "Why?" that is about what other people prefer to do with their own goddamn time, come back here, and reread the first row of this post. That will ALWAYS be the answer to your question. Have a nice day.

  15. #55
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    This is Production Quality. If it doesn't live up to the Production Quality you expect, or the one WoW has, it's an instant fail for most.
    Being critical is a burden which some people loves to bear.

  16. #56
    once money changes hands, the gloves come off. only gamers let the the creators get away with a poor product and it baffles me. if there are issues/bugs/inconsistencies with the game that people find and are not addressed without explanation then yes people have the right to be pissed. it's not like a dev is going to "understand" why you can't pay for your sub this month, so why the hell do gamers give them a pass at all. gamers delude themselves into thinking that their relationships with the devs are reciprocal after money has been exchanged hands but they are not and the quicker people realize this the better it is for gaming as a whole. just take a look at the last decade and the utter stagnation of the MMO genre due to people putting up with crappy products. it's not even the devs fault it's ours as gamers because we afford them that leeway in the first place.

    bah, it's really annoying and then years later people start complaining about how this and that is boring, or getting old, or why no one innovates; it's because we basically put up with the bugs and issues so the devs think it is okay and they go right ahead and abuse it. every time a bug is messed up or there are inconsistencies people have to report it asap and demand that it gets fixed within a reasonable time-frame. and dev transparency should be afforded to the players, because at the end of the day no matter how attached you are to the game, to your avatar, to the devs, this is all a business transaction and should be treated as such!

    /end rant
    Cherish the quiet...before my STORM!!!

    Guild Wars 2: Odeezee (Necromancer) || TERA: Odeezee (Archer-Ret) || SWTOR: Odeezee (Sith Inquisitor-Ret/Jedi Sage-Ret) || GW: Odeezee Fosho (Elementalist-Ret)
    Aion: Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret), ODZ (Spirit Master-Ret) || War
    : Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret) || AoC: Odeezee (Demonologist-Ret) || WoW: Odeezee (Druid-Ret), Thaone (Mage-Ret)

  17. #57
    bah, it's really annoying and then years later people start complaining about how this and that is boring, or getting old, or why no one innovates; it's because we basically put up with the bugs and issues so the devs think it is okay and they go right ahead and abuse it. every time a bug is messed up or there are inconsistencies people have to report it asap and demand that it gets fixed within a reasonable time-frame. and dev transparency should be afforded to the players, because at the end of the day no matter how attached you are to the game, to your avatar, to the devs, this is all a business transaction and should be treated as such!
    Not everyone runs into "issues" equally. There always exists a vocal group of those who do- but that is not totally accurate of the overall fun experience most have in their respective games. Many don't even visit forums to look at technical issues. Many don't even care about them.

    There was like 1 bug that affected my gameplay in TOR. There were 3 mild issues that effect me in Rift. Never had any serious glitches in Aion. Warcraft was kinda glitchy when it began but since TBC the play experience has been pretty darn bug/issue free. All of those mentioned have their technical issues, naturally. That's a reality of games. Nothing will be 100% glitch/issue free.

    Where one guy is yelling 'OMG RIFT LAG/UNPLAYABLE'-- there are like 7 people saying they have no such issue. And that's a repeating pattern in all MMOs.

    Simply, many folks are having fun in WoW, Rift, TOR, Aion, etc- without much complaint.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-01-14 at 08:26 PM.

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Not everyone runs into "issues" equally. There always exists a vocal group of those who do- but that is not totally accurate of the overall fun experience most have in their respective games. Many don't even visit forums to look at technical issues. Many don't even care about them.

    There was like 1 bug that affected my gameplay in TOR. There were 3 mild issues that effect me in Rift. Never had any serious glitches in Aion. Warcraft was kinda glitchy when it began but since TBC the play experience has been pretty darn bug/issue free. All of those mentioned have their technical issues, naturally. That's a reality of games. Nothing will be 100% glitch/issue free.

    Where one guy is yelling 'OMG RIFT LAG/UNPLAYABLE'-- there are like 7 people saying they have no such issue. And that's a repeating pattern in all MMOs.

    Simply, many folks are having fun in WoW, Rift, TOR, Aion, etc- without much complaint.
    you brought up a very good point. selfishness in a game's community. just because there are a smaller number of people experiencing a bug that is actually caused by the game itself and not some client side gamer's issue, then everyone should want it fixed, even if it does not directly affect you. it's such a pervasive attitude that even goes so far as people asking for nerfs of other classes instead of buffs to the rest. these are MMOs after all and the one commodity the all need to survive is people, so it is actually to everyone's benefit to plead the case on their behalf to the devs. like i said these games are a business for the devs so after launch they will say that unless this threshold of people are affected by bug X we will not move to fix it. i mean unless devs start to offer refunds i think it's only fair that they cater to as many people as possible.

    the thing i found very surprising about SWTOR is that it should not be as demanding as it is given it's graphical quality. how can i get 65+ fps in Aion, AoC, Rift with everything on max settings during PvP combat and then drop down to 15-29 fps with max settings during PvP in SWTOR? it smells of very poor optimization to me and most people not experiencing any issues have AMD gcards whereas i have nVidia. and i know some game companies optimize for a particular brand of gcard over the other but that is just poor planning if you fail to optimize for the other brand as well. there are other issues too, but the reason i am not impressed with Bioware is because they knew about these issues like 5 months ago, so why have they not tried to find a solution? companies cannot afford to slip these days as there is alot of competition out or on the horizon and even if your game is not perfect at least make it enjoyable to play, and not have people with beast machines dying in pvp due to low and random drops in fps and skill activation delay, etc.
    Cherish the quiet...before my STORM!!!

    Guild Wars 2: Odeezee (Necromancer) || TERA: Odeezee (Archer-Ret) || SWTOR: Odeezee (Sith Inquisitor-Ret/Jedi Sage-Ret) || GW: Odeezee Fosho (Elementalist-Ret)
    Aion: Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret), ODZ (Spirit Master-Ret) || War
    : Odeezee (Sorcerer-Ret) || AoC: Odeezee (Demonologist-Ret) || WoW: Odeezee (Druid-Ret), Thaone (Mage-Ret)

  19. #59
    Well, of course I want a bug free game as much as possible. It simply doesn't "break the game", to use a vulgar expression, for many players.

    Many game issues from a technical standpoint, don't hit every player of that game. No matter how vocal the forums are over that issue. All Darth xxDarthRevanxx knows is he is having a blast playing TOR.

    It's unreasonable to ever expect MMOs to have zero technical issues. It happens. As long as it doesn't effect the majority of the players in a way that prevents actual play-- it's fine.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-01-14 at 09:13 PM.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Odeezee View Post
    you brought up a very good point. selfishness in a game's community. just because there are a smaller number of people experiencing a bug that is actually caused by the game itself and not some client side gamer's issue, then everyone should want it fixed, even if it does not directly affect you. it's such a pervasive attitude that even goes so far as people asking for nerfs of other classes instead of buffs to the rest. these are MMOs after all and the one commodity the all need to survive is people, so it is actually to everyone's benefit to plead the case on their behalf to the devs. like i said these games are a business for the devs so after launch they will say that unless this threshold of people are affected by bug X we will not move to fix it. i mean unless devs start to offer refunds i think it's only fair that they cater to as many people as possible.

    the thing i found very surprising about SWTOR is that it should not be as demanding as it is given it's graphical quality. how can i get 65+ fps in Aion, AoC, Rift with everything on max settings during PvP combat and then drop down to 15-29 fps with max settings during PvP in SWTOR? it smells of very poor optimization to me and most people not experiencing any issues have AMD gcards whereas i have nVidia. and i know some game companies optimize for a particular brand of gcard over the other but that is just poor planning if you fail to optimize for the other brand as well. there are other issues too, but the reason i am not impressed with Bioware is because they knew about these issues like 5 months ago, so why have they not tried to find a solution? companies cannot afford to slip these days as there is alot of competition out or on the horizon and even if your game is not perfect at least make it enjoyable to play, and not have people with beast machines dying in pvp due to low and random drops in fps and skill activation delay, etc.
    The highlighted quote I strongly disagree with because there are very good legitimate reasons why a class should be nerfed instead of buffing all the others. The first is that it's often just plain easier, if one class is doing 110% of the rest who are all within 5% of each other, why risk causing more imbalance by buffing the rest instead of just nerfing that one class. Secondly there's the PVE game to consider, if a boss's health and enrage timer is based around classes doing 100% damage but you buff them all to 110% you nerf that content when that may not be desired. Finally it's not as simple as just buffing all the classes anyway, if you increased damage across the board you risk making burst classes more potent and might have to nerf their mobility or utility to keep them from being overpowered.

    No one likes being nerfed, I get that, but refusing to ever nerf would be an incredibly poor design choice.
    "Critics who treat adult as a term of approval, instead of as a merely descriptive term, cannot be adult themselves. To be concerned about being grown up, to admire the grown up because it is grown up, to blush at the suspicion of being childish; these things are the marks of childhood and adolescence...When I became a man I put away childish things, including the fear of childishness and the desire to be very grown up." - C. S. Lewis

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