RET - Lets talk haste VS crit

[utush4sure1]

Character: Gwpally Server: Arthas
My scale factors from a week ago:
Str Agi AP Exp(tocap) Hit(tocap) Crit Haste Mastery Wdps
3.1314 1.5549 1.3841 3.5110 4.7574 1.8192 1.2259 1.9403 10.8429

Think for a second about what each stat actually does. Crit increases the damage of every ability, including Gurthalak which was what you were asking about. A critical strike will proc more mastery further increasing the damage of a crit. Haste on the other hand increases auto attack damage and make Censure tick more often. Many bring up it reduces the cooldown of CS, but it is irrelevant. Lowering the CD of CS from 3.9 to 3.6 seconds will do nothing for you. The first CS brings you to a 1.5second global. The following attack will either bring you to 2.5 or 3 seconds depending on what was cast. The next global after will bring you to 3.5, 4, or 4.5 seconds from the first Crusader Strike. If your CS cooldown is less than 4 seconds there is practically no benefit to it from haste. Even at the 3.5 second CD threshold, circumstances rarely take advantage of this. You would have to use CS,Exo,Con or another similar combo to end at a 3.5 seconds. More often than not your haste is getting no benefit.

[anthell]

THIS IS WHY I LOVE MMO-CHAMP!

threads like this are 100% full of infractions in EJ and they arent even good source of information

Infractions like the one you've just received. Please try to stay on topic. - Malthanis

[Kelesti]

THIS IS WHY I LOVE MMO-CHAMP!

threads like this are 100% full of infractions in EJ and they arent even good source of information

And this is a good source of information?


Point of the matter is, with the exception of Landsoul, most of the top mathletes don't really run top end content. They don't need to. Math is math is math. It's why EJ was for a short time actually looking to hire math majors to sort out some of the false crap that was coming through and have solid models for everything.

Exemplar found math that said "Hey haste isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is, it's actually better than crit unless you're using <crit stacking trinket X>". Simcraft said "But no crit is better than haste, we can prove it". The point isn't that it stopped there. The authors at Simcraft poured through Exemplar's proof, as he did vice versa. Two different methods came up with two different results, but neither could be proven wrong.

Crit is not better than haste.

And as for the "fix" to Gurthalak, it still has no ICD, meaning it still scales with Haste. As does your Censure ticks, your white hits, your weapon damage seal ticks, and your Exorcism procs. The only things that don't scale with haste are either folding into the model next expansion (Judgement cooldown, GCD on Verdict/Storm) or being removed from the get-go (LOLy Wrath).

The fact is, Haste gives you more numbers and a slightly smoother rotation. Crit gives you bigger numbers to fap to. Take your pick on what's more enjoyable, because as long as you're not putting either above Mastery, you're not doing it wrong.

[Slanderize]

i cant help but LOL-ed when i saw this =)

FULL RESPECT TO U SIR!!

i gave up on EJ when i got an infraction for no punctuation/capitalization. Im glad i have my own means to find out numbers instead of relying on others lolz

I gave up posting on Elitist Jerks when those Elitist Jerks acted like a bunch of Elitist Jerks and banned me for not following their elite, jerky policies that I didn't read, because I'm a non elitist jerk.

I mean, I'm all for talking shit about EJ ever since the whole "stack the fuck out of stam" tier 11 "Oh I put my check marks in the wrong box and made a six paragraph post about it lol" on the bear threads... but come on man, they sort of let you know FROM THE MOMENT YOU TYPE THE URL that they're gonna be... well.. a bunch of elitist jerks. :P

[anaxie]

And this is a good source of information?


Point of the matter is, with the exception of Landsoul, most of the top mathletes don't really run top end content. They don't need to. Math is math is math. It's why EJ was for a short time actually looking to hire math majors to sort out some of the false crap that was coming through and have solid models for everything.

Exemplar found math that said "Hey haste isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is, it's actually better than crit unless you're using <crit stacking trinket X>". Simcraft said "But no crit is better than haste, we can prove it". The point isn't that it stopped there. The authors at Simcraft poured through Exemplar's proof, as he did vice versa. Two different methods came up with two different results, but neither could be proven wrong.

Crit is not better than haste.

And as for the "fix" to Gurthalak, it still has no ICD, meaning it still scales with Haste. As does your Censure ticks, your white hits, your weapon damage seal ticks, and your Exorcism procs. The only things that don't scale with haste are either folding into the model next expansion (Judgement cooldown, GCD on Verdict/Storm) or being removed from the get-go (LOLy Wrath).

The fact is, Haste gives you more numbers and a slightly smoother rotation. Crit gives you bigger numbers to fap to. Take your pick on what's more enjoyable, because as long as you're not putting either above Mastery, you're not doing it wrong.

You can stop the kiss ass now, EJ was in it's prime during the TBC era, and pretty decent in wotlk.

Currently with its QUALITY posters Zurm, Bluedeep <rest his soul!>, barrelroll, and Avitus gone it's in a stat of decay and people just avoid posting and freely post here without worrying about zealous infractions for offtopic or sentence structure posting. Sure MMO champ can do some stupid bans here and there, I myself should know, but it's overall a very good site.

Fact is Exemplar spews information that falls mostly on deaf ears because no one worth noting has ever considered Crit = Haste, nor has simcraft. He can be a mathlete all he wants his experience and word pales in comparison to some of us that have been clearing content since Vanilla / TBC launch. His little spreadsheets are fine for a dummy scenario but thats not how raiding works in the slightest.

Anyone recall him saying firelands rep trinket was the superior one on his spreadsheet at one point in time? I do and that worked out really well for him since his crappy sheet and design was dead set on him thinking AoK would only be proccing crit because he couldn't be bothered to check loot tables. Or when he had Haste at a high value because he bugged the hell out of SoT and other mechanics and released it to public.

TLDR Experienced players > mathletes

Unless your a mathlete who actually gets it like Kisko, even though we disagree his threads this expansion for trinkets has been a valueable source.

Lets not forget who hammered out trinkets for this final tier it was myself, butosai, kisko, pbad, nelda, requital, and a few select others who hammered out all the mechaincs in this very forum. The discovery when Kisko revamped his thread let us all know how undervalued Creche had been to our eyes, thinking it to be exactly like every other proc trinket <90sec ICD>, and the insistent pushing of myself and butosai to have people not abandon H:AoK.

[Butosai]

And this is a good source of information?


Point of the matter is, with the exception of Landsoul, most of the top mathletes don't really run top end content. They don't need to. Math is math is math. It's why EJ was for a short time actually looking to hire math majors to sort out some of the false crap that was coming through and have solid models for everything.

Exemplar found math that said "Hey haste isn't as bad as everyone thinks it is, it's actually better than crit unless you're using <crit stacking trinket X>". Simcraft said "But no crit is better than haste, we can prove it". The point isn't that it stopped there. The authors at Simcraft poured through Exemplar's proof, as he did vice versa. Two different methods came up with two different results, but neither could be proven wrong.

Crit is not better than haste.

And as for the "fix" to Gurthalak, it still has no ICD, meaning it still scales with Haste. As does your Censure ticks, your white hits, your weapon damage seal ticks, and your Exorcism procs. The only things that don't scale with haste are either folding into the model next expansion (Judgement cooldown, GCD on Verdict/Storm) or being removed from the get-go (LOLy Wrath).

The fact is, Haste gives you more numbers and a slightly smoother rotation. Crit gives you bigger numbers to fap to. Take your pick on what's more enjoyable, because as long as you're not putting either above Mastery, you're not doing it wrong.

Let me put it to you this way

Look up these people on armory:

Neldarie
Anaxie
Butosai
Yata
Grey
Flash
Requital
pbad
Leviculus
Hawtfix
(im sure im missing people im just making a point)

These are 10 of >among< the best rets right now

Do you see any of them reforging for haste? Trying to balance mastery and haste with that stupid balancing theory? Nope
Math is math you right and I cant argue with it if the math is right but its not right at all. Hastes value is not that high. It doesnt just randomly skyrocket with no class changes that effect haste. There is a mathematical error somewhere and no one gives a shit to try and find it.

Its not impossible to get very accurate numbers using math but its really hard /close to impossible to 100% accurately "math it out"

[Drindir]

Math is Math and numbers don't lie, but as most people are trying to say, raid enviroment is not calculated into the calculations.

It's basically like racing, during a simulation you can test your way to see what laptime is humanly possible to achive on that course. These are the factors you can test out on a Retribution paladin on a computer. Now lets talk the human factor, reaction-time (/Latency), Shifting (/proccs etc. at the right time for more beneficial dps), smoothness/knowledge and stress. Even if this only make half sense since its 4.40am, people seem to miss out on the basic logic that everyhing is mathematically calculated, and if you try to make calculations and skip some of these factors (have fun trying to sort that out), I suggest you multibox a few retripaladins and spend hour and hour figuring out what gives the most.

I'm not a good retri-paladin, but a decent one, ALWAYS look updates and especially what other "better" players are doing with their gear etc..

I know I got abit lost here, and probably shouldnt have posted, but people keep comming back with their "saves", and yet the geared ones never try to prove anything but the real fact that they're succeeding e.g. Savior of Azeroth, you don't pick up any kind of dps unless you bring it, speaks for itself.


Thanks for letting me ninja your armories so I can improve, and if you care to check me out Glamreau - Grim Batol-EU (Sigh hands enchant..I know..!), would love some pointers if you can be bothered, and yes, very undergeared since its my half-alt in our 10man guild. Good Night <3

[northgan]

last tier flash of the guild Vodka was using the gear balanced critical and haste

[Butosai]

last tier flash of the guild Vodka was using the gear balanced critical and haste

not gonna say you are wrong cuz i never armoried him last tier but i doubt it

[Kinmaul]

Math is Math and numbers don't lie, but as most people are trying to say, raid enviroment is not calculated into the calculations.

Numbers don't lie, but that statement is based on the fact that the numbers being applied are true 100% of the time. People spout off random facts and calculations all the time, but unless the data they are using is accurate all their number crunching is worthless. Exemplar has contributed a lot to the Ret community in the past/present, but based on Simcraft's findings and the personal experience of many Ret paladins that have tried both scenarios you should always assume that Crit > Haste.

[Fredzilla]

Badpaladin, i think, made a good point about this awhile ago. The two stats might be shown close together, sometimes haste>crit, in theory, but in practice it's a different story. With all the switching and adds and whatnot in DS, haste, which is better over time, is a lot less beneficial than crit.

[kath01]

last tier flash of the guild Vodka was using the gear balanced critical and haste

Probably why he was rocking the 100s while decked out in nearly full bis

[Adhal-Blackrock]

Crit is not better than haste.

When you show me a raider who is consistently ranking high in a haste set up, I might believe this. I challenge you to find me anyone who is ranking high rocking haste. Exemplar, as much as I give him credit for trying has been wrong many many times. Telling someone that haste is better than crit right now is just complete misinformation, there is NO proof outside of numbers in 1 sim.

Until someone can step up with some hard evidence that haste is better in actual logs, crit > haste.

[pbad]

I don't want to detract from any of the hard work that people do on spreadsheets, and I do appreciate it, but I'm personally at the point where I don't think the approximation modeling of spreadsheets is accurate enough to handle the complexity of WoW. I know a lot of specs still prefer to use spreadsheets (landsouls/shadowcraft) come to mind. I know shadowcraft isn't specifically a spreadsheet but it utilizes approximation modeling from what I've seen in the code. This was always my primary reasoning behind going crit over haste as SimC has always maintained this stat ranking.

That said though, SimC is far from infalliable and it is only as accurate as the people developing/maintaining it. On that note I encourage anyone who uses SimC for any spec to always keep a vigilant eye on it. We've tracked down a few big bugs with the ret model already in 4.3 and chances are the more people monitoring the results the more likely we are to keep it as accurate as possible. The source code is always open to the public and anyone is free to file new bug reports. Anyways, that was a little bit of a tangent but all that aside it is still my personal recommendation that Rets go crit>haste. Also thank you to everyone for the kind mentions in this thread.

[Kisko]

Thank you for all the hard work Pbad. SimC remains to be the solid basis for most of the Ret theorycrafting.

And grats with Spine!

[northgan]

Probably why he was rocking the 100s while decked out in nearly full bis

maybe, but I always followed the armory him and he kept some balance between haste and critical, but in this tier he is also using critical

in the last tier I really tried to reforge haste> crit (and obtained good results), but the difference between the haste> critical and crit> haste was much more variable to track because of the RNG, until that point I agree with the exemplar: the lucky procs was more important than secondary status.
but in this tier I also believe that crit> haste
note: I not had the H apparatus probably if I had to stack crit without doing any test: P
Excuse my Poor English!

[kwayver]

in my experience of DS raiding, ive been favouring crit over haste and i still find myself in positions where i have RNG drop off because i couldnt justify utilizing it. prime example of this is art of war.
particularly during BL burns with zealotry active (but occasionally during the rest of the fight) ill have enough success with divine purpose procs, enough uptime on CS and judge for HP generation and filler with spending 3HP with TV and inq uptime that i have AoW drop off for me.
this is just one of many examples about why haste is proving not so useful in a situation that math really couldnt predict.