The Holy Trinity & Raiding

[Grogo]

A few questions for you this fine Monday morning.

1. Are you fine with the holy trinity of raiding, meaning the classic set up of Healer, Tank and DPS? Having one of those roles. I am fine with it, I like it and cannot see a better way to do it really. Anyone else know what may work better? I do not like that everyone can heal, tank and dps at any time.

2. Would you be interested in a MMO that caters to Raiders only.(*edit) - Include smaller dungeons as well Think of the possibilites:

a) Maybe to level you need to beat a certain boss

b) Guilds would be important

c) goals that needed to be completed before getting to next dungeon/raid/boss

d) server goals

e) compete with other realms (maybe)

f) what you do as a guild can really influence your server - (political system / leaders on server decide certain things)

g) probably a shit ton more possibilities I am not thinking about right now

[Arrowstormen]

I doubt any company would shove enough money together to make a MMO, and then only cater for a not-so-big-part-of-the-MMO-community.

[Mamut]

I like the "trinity" system. Maybe because I just got use to this after 5+ years with WoW. I just could not imagine raid with only damage dealers go and beat bosses without tanks/healers. Healing skills for everyone also dont appeal to me.

[Grogo]

I doubt any company would shove enough money together to make a MMO, and then only cater for a not-so-big-part-of-the-MMO-community.

I think it is big and better yet, they tend to be longer paying customers.

[Domiku]

1) I'm fine with it think about in real life war you have the front line defense (tanks) then the other soldiers that have guns, rocket launchers other ranked weapons etc etc (the DPS) and then you have the medics at the back taking care of the injured (Healers). Holy trinity works in the real world as it does it wow sort of so i am ok with it. But it is a little silly the boss doesn't hit the healer and will just focus on the tank but then again we have people summoning demons and shooting fire around the room so i will let it slip.

2) Yeah ofc raiding is fun often with wow all i do now is login to raid, there was a time i liked to do other things on wow though and sometimes although rare i like to just sit chill and level so in a way no but yes.

By the way i suggest you look at guild wars 2 that is a new mmo without the whole holy trinity system and looks epic.

In short holy trinity works and its fun for most, its proven to be effective so its a case of why change whats not broke.

[Arrowstormen]

I think it is big and better yet, they tend to be longer paying customers.

You would be surprised of the small percents you would get if you counted how many raided out of the 10 million.

---------- Post added 2012-01-16 at 05:46 PM ----------

I like the "trinity" system. Maybe because I just got use to this after 5+ years with WoW. I just could not imagine raid with only damage dealers go and beat bosses without tanks/healers. Healing skills for everyone also dont appeal to me.

I can't think of another MMO that doesn't use it, so I can't tell if you have any practice with anything else than the trinity.

[Deleted]

Holy trinity can vary to a point.
But it cannot break. There has to be a healer and tank and dps.
What can change is that healer can offer dps and tank can either have increased healing abilities or larger dps out put. Also fights that dont one shot certain dps classes can exist.
Maulgar fight with the priest being tanked by a plate wearer and the mage being tanked by a frost mage are primar exambles.

On the thoughts about raiding.
It is still a mystery how the numbers of people doing lfr are so small.
The ones doing normal modes are drastically smaller.

Still this game we play it is all about raiding and those that don't raid they just collect.

Gear-mounts-pets-vanity items etc.

As for realm active people? Sure, just kill all automated tools before trying.

[Arrowstormen]

To make a MMO around raiding, you wouldn't make a MMO around raiding, but instead cut down to what raiding and the raiding experience is, and build upon that.

[Gum]

and here i was, expecting some newage religion to hate on raiding, dissapointed :/

OT: I quite like it the way it is, and, as the OP, i cannot see it working in any other way.
Also regarding the MMO;Raiding , i doubt it will work. The only reason we have new tiers is mainly cus of paying casuals. I mean, they even tend to dictate when new tiers are out(when casuals have had their chance) Without that part of the game, i doubt it will work. Simply wont be enough resources to pump out the content needed to satiate the hunger.

On a different note yea; there will always be casuals in a game, theres always those that cannot for whatever reason, do as good/use as much time/dont want to, play the game as the top tier players, so regardless of difficulty. Id say that the way WoW is going at it now, with LRF-Normal-HC caters to pretty much everything, and with the tank-healer-Dps trinity. It just about covers as wide array of ppl as possible, making the game a truly mass multiplayer game. Wich in turn is what we all want, aint it?

[Lenonis]

I think it is big and better yet, they tend to be longer paying customers.

I think you don't really understand the MMO customer base.

The truth is pretty much the opposite of what you have said. The numbers that Blizzard releases always shows that serious raiders are in the minority, often times in WoW's history in the vast minority. It was one of the reasons they rehashed the Naxx raid.

The question you should be asking is if that minority is enough to warrant support for their own MMO. Which brings the second problem around -- and one that again contradicts your statement. Hardcore players can also be fickle players. Bleeding edge raiders are going to be impatient for new content and would be more likely than not to cancel while waiting for expansions. You might be able to design enough dynamic content to keep them around, but I suspect you will be forced into a situation where you either have to pump out new content at an astonishing rate, or deal with wildly fluctuating subscription numbers as people cancel and reactivate based on the release cycle. Either way, it's going to eat into your profit margins.

So basically it's not a desired customer base for a MMO because it's not as profitable. And any company is out for profit, not to create a game for the game's sake.

[Grogo]

To make a MMO around raiding, you wouldn't make a MMO around raiding, but instead cut down to what raiding and the raiding experience is, and build upon that.

Well shit man, expand on that thought. I like where you are going.

[Deleted]

1. I like the Trinity system a lot.
2. In order to level, you have to kill a certain boss? Okay, then what happens when the guilds progress past that point? It's quickly going to deteriorate into the current situation: If you aren't geared, get more gear before you join us. But instead of gearing, it'll be levels. And since guilds will be important, there's going to be a lot of issues finding someone to help kill that boss. The highlevels are too busy with their own stuff to come help constantly. as for the social-political aspect of your proposal, I just don't see it happening. It's a game and while some are just fine with making decisions, a lot of people will disagree and it will utterly ruin their gaming experience if they happen to get stuck on a server with "communism" when they believe in "monarchy", just to make up some examples.

Remember, this is a game. Any MMO is a game. People want to have fun. Not escape from real life to a digital life that is identical to real life.

[Deleted]

Boss hitting by numbers that dps and healers wouldn't handle... Raid getting so much damage, that they should need a certain person in raid to heal them, while they do damage to boss...

Holy trinity is necessary to feel PVE fights epic.

GW2 force their system, because it's evolved hack&slash, where every person have same roles. For pvp it's quite good, but pve?

No, I prefer epic pve battles

[Frozen Death Knight]

I would not play another MMO that remotely played as "WoW", in terms of combat and end game content. The holy trinity works well in "WoW" and I enjoy playing a Holy Paladin, but if I wanted to play another MMO? No more "WoW" clones, please.

I want to see something that actually is unique in comparison to the standard gameplay "WoW" has set while making sure it is really solid gameplay. "WoW" is good, but it simply can not turn its back on the very basics this game has been building on since launch, and I want to see some inovation to the genre.

Heck, I love Blizzard games, but if their secret project "Titan" can not simply divert from the same path "WoW" has set up, I am more than likely not going to play it, regardless of how good it is (Which it will, by going through the history of this company.).

So, there is my answer to your main question. Did not go into detail about the other things you asked about, but I think they are still covered by what I am trying to say, in this post.

[Grogo]

Ok let me rephrase a) Maybe to level you need to beat a certain boss


Just diff variations to level. There could be a support group for raiders in the game. They could do the gathering, 5 mans would get mats for raiding (1 example)

To level, you complete bosses/dungeons, each one you go though you get more abilities until you reach end game which then changes

Do not get stuck on any thing i ve said...change something...instead thinking that will not work...maybe try giving a solution

[Mcshiz]

On paper this sounds like a game I am soooooo for. But then you realize like 10% of wows community raids...and it just gives me a frowny face. (That % is prob much lower/higher I pulled it out of thin air) This idea also makes for a steep ass learning curve and will breed an insane amount of elitism. Lastly, i don't need really "skilled" 12 year olds running my server b.c they have killed more bosses than I have.

[painweaver]

I believe there should be some sort of "buff" class. The hybrid casses in wow used to somewhat-be this. The buff class would make an essential part of the raid, but doesn't give hybrid classes the luxury of having 3 specs that competes (or is better) than a pure-class.

[Frozen Death Knight]

I believe there should be some sort of "buff" class. The hybrid casses in wow used to somewhat-be this. The buff class would make an essential part of the raid, but doesn't give hybrid classes the luxury of having 3 specs that competes (or is better) than a pure-class.

By the standards of today, barely anyone would play a class like that.

[KHShadowrunner]

By the standards of today, barely anyone would play a class like that.

FFXI's Bard class was basically a pure buff role, and i found it an absolute blast to play. Sure, you'd pick up a healing sub, but your output was minimal compared to the actual healer. You really just spent your time making everyone else look that much more awesome.

Maybe a class that's just buff/debuff, makes it less about numbers and more about total uptime.

[Arrowstormen]

Boss hitting by numbers that dps and healers wouldn't handle... Raid getting so much damage, that they should need a certain person in raid to heal them, while they do damage to boss...

Holy trinity is necessary to feel PVE fights epic.

GW2 force their system, because it's evolved hack&slash, where every person have same roles. For pvp it's quite good, but pve?

No, I prefer epic pve battles

That is simply wrong. Implemented right with classes and abilities, it can easily outdo the holy trinity in epicness. What helps the epicness in the holy trinity?