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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by alms1407 View Post
    Question is, can Sweden be subject to an indictment by the European Court of Human Rights or will this simply slide under the radar as this can't be seen as a big issue?
    Seing as there's a number of countries that's started to point fingers at this issue my guess is that it won't be able to slide under the radar.

  2. #22
    Pit Lord Gerbert the's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by openair View Post
    I read that as: transgenders are only required forced sterilisation to be OFFICIALLY recognised as a sex other then they were born. If they dont care what some piece of paper says... there is no problem (especially as same sex marriage is legal in sweden).
    It's not just as simple as "caring what a piece of paper says". Imagine your life if you were not legally recognized as the gender you are, from doing your taxes, to medical things, to something as simple as filling out a job application...anything that is gender specific. The problems you would face on a regular basis would be quite annoying and embarrassing. If you wanted to live life as a woman, imagine trying to apply for jobs looking like a female yet having to tell them you are a male named Robert. Not being legally the gender you are would be a mental hell for anyone.
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  3. #23
    Bloodsail Admiral Talokami's Avatar
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    Wow I'm glad I'm not transitioning in Sweden.

    This makes me really sad to hear, actually. It's not something I'd expect out of Scandinavia but my understanding is the current Swedish government is a bit...extreme. Sorry to hear about this, folks.
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  4. #24
    This sucks bigtime yes. Will probably be resolved soon though. Hopefully before it's relevent for me *fingers crossed*

  5. #25
    Pit Lord Doktor Faustus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreezusSaves View Post
    Who said the Nazis were made powerless after WW2? They're doing just fine in continental Europe.
    They built rockets that went to the moon! Now that's what I call pooowwwwah - FUS DO RAH that metal tube 250,000 miles!

  6. #26
    Wait.... let me see if I understand it right.

    Transgender people currently need to be sterilized before they can officially call themselves the opposite sex?

    A man is not supposed to have a vagina or ovaries. If 'he' does, 'he' is not a man.
    A woman is not supposed to have a penis or testicles. If 'she' does, 'she' is not a woman.

    If you want to become either of those, you need to get them removed, hence you're sterilized anyway.

    I don't see a problem.




    ... unless of course you want to be a woman with balls, in which case there's something really wrong with you. Fine if you want to be a woman, but at least make sure you make yourself _all_ woman, instead of a half-gender abomination.

  7. #27
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinderofl View Post
    Wait.... let me see if I understand it right.

    Transgender people currently need to be sterilized before they can officially call themselves the opposite sex?

    A man is not supposed to have a vagina or ovaries. If 'he' does, 'he' is not a man.
    A woman is not supposed to have a penis or testicles. If 'she' does, 'she' is not a woman.

    If you want to become either of those, you need to get them removed, hence you're sterilized anyway.

    I don't see a problem.




    ... unless of course you want to be a woman with balls, in which case there's something really wrong with you. Fine if you want to be a woman, but at least make sure you make yourself _all_ woman, instead of a half-gender abomination.
    I think the argument is they'd like to be considered the sex they feel they are before going through the surgery, assuming they can ever actually afford it.
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  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by openair View Post
    While i agree this is a violation of human rights... i would just like to point out...


    I read that as: transgenders are only required forced sterilisation to be OFFICIALLY recognised as a sex other then they were born. If they dont care what some piece of paper says... there is no problem (especially as same sex marriage is legal in sweden).

    This could be viewed/done as a way to prevent perverts from simply dressing as the opposite sex to gain access to sex restricted areas (wash rooms, locker rooms, ect). To protect law enforcements ability to enforce. To protect other people's rights.
    I assume this is according to the (flawed) logic of "if you're not a man, then you must be a woman (and vice versa)"? Still ranks pretty high on my (alrdy crowded) list of Half-assed Idiocy in the World.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinderofl View Post
    Wait.... let me see if I understand it right.

    Transgender people currently need to be sterilized before they can officially call themselves the opposite sex?

    A man is not supposed to have a vagina or ovaries. If 'he' does, 'he' is not a man.
    A woman is not supposed to have a penis or testicles. If 'she' does, 'she' is not a woman.

    If you want to become either of those, you need to get them removed, hence you're sterilized anyway.

    I don't see a problem.




    ... unless of course you want to be a woman with balls, in which case there's something really wrong with you. Fine if you want to be a woman, but at least make sure you make yourself _all_ woman, instead of a half-gender abomination.
    Reading this comment, it sounds quite normal that Sweden is doing this... plus, it's only done if said people want to be recognized as the gender they assumed as their new one.

    Also, rapists should be sterilized too, make a law Sweden, I trust in you!

  10. #30
    a human's gender is determined at birth.
    it has a penis? -> male.
    it has a vagina? -> female.
    by definition, that is your gender. it won't change just because you feel like wearing make-up and dressing like a woman. because you still lack boobs. you still lack a vagina. you are by definition not a woman. you are a man. hence your papers identify you as a man.
    as long as you are male (aka you have a dick and balls), your papers must identify you as male.
    nobody forces sterilisation upon trans people. yes, they may get weird looks for their passport saying male. but srsly - trans people getting weird looks isnt exactly something new huh?

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 12:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Vayshan View Post
    I assume this is according to the (flawed) logic of "if you're not a man, then you must be a woman (and vice versa)"? Still ranks pretty high on my (alrdy crowded) list of Half-assed Idiocy in the World.
    the law only knows the two natural genders: male and female. because that applies to 99.95% of the people.
    Last edited by ReWahn; 2012-01-16 at 11:31 PM.

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Firebert's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReWahn View Post
    nobody forces sterilisation upon trans people. yes, they may get weird looks for their passport saying male. but srsly - trans people getting weird looks isnt exactly something new huh?
    Are you sure you're not mixing up transgender and transvestite?

    And it's not a case of getting weird looks. It's much deeper than that.
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  12. #32
    So if I got this right, in the end there's nothing wrong with this law, since it only asks you to decide which sex you want to be (or in the end it can be reduced to this)

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Firebert View Post
    Are you sure you're not mixing up transgender and transvestite?
    "Transsexualism is an individual's identification with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with his or her biological sex."
    aka born as a man but wants to be a woman. or born female, wants to be male. either way.
    (definition from wikipedia. should work for this thread huh?)

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by loogf View Post
    So if I got this right, in the end there's nothing wrong with this law, since it only asks you to decide which sex you want to be (or in the end it can be reduced to this)
    At the cost of never having children naturally, instead having sperm and eggs frozen.

    It shouldn't have a cost.
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  15. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by TreezusSaves View Post
    Who said the Nazis were made powerless after WW2? They're doing just fine in continental Europe.
    Also over here in the good ol United Police States of America

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by ReWahn View Post
    a human's gender is determined at birth.
    it has a penis? -> male.
    it has a vagina? -> female.
    by definition, that is your gender. it won't change just because you feel like wearing make-up and dressing like a woman. because you still lack boobs. you still lack a vagina. you are by definition not a woman. you are a man. hence your papers identify you as a man.
    as long as you are male (aka you have a dick and balls), your papers must identify you as male.
    nobody forces sterilisation upon trans people. yes, they may get weird looks for their passport saying male. but srsly - trans people getting weird looks isnt exactly something new huh?[COLOR="red"]
    .
    Random nit, you have it backward.

    SEX is determined at birth. Gender is determined by the culture you're in and isn't restricted to just two in some societies.

    The two have distinct meanings, though they're often confused.

    To the content, if you have a surgically created vagina, are you now a woman? If you have a false dick and balls, does that make you automatically a man? By your definition, it's a fluid transition to jump between being the male and female sex.

  17. #37
    This seems more like something that havnt been changed, than something a moden country have forced through, and as it says in the article, some other "modern" countries either still have it or have recently got rid of it. Im not trying to justify it, but comparing it makes it seem "less worse"

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ReWahn View Post
    "Transsexualism is an individual's identification with a gender inconsistent or not culturally associated with his or her biological sex."
    aka born as a man but wants to be a woman. or born female, wants to be male. either way.
    (definition from wikipedia. should work for this thread huh?)
    I don't understand this though. If some one believes they are something that they clearly arent (a man feeling like a woman and vice versa), shouldn't that be considered a mental illness rather than an inconsistancy? Call me crazy but i don't believe that nature assigns the wrong sex to people. I think people who have a penis are born to be a male and people born with vaginas are females. You shouldn't just be able to have your dick chopped off and be called a female, because you werent born a female.

  19. #39
    Why does every thing has to be Human Rights? What they are doing is wrong, but doubt its against human rights. Who decides what is human rights by the way?

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by runique View Post
    I don't understand this though. If some one believes they are something that they clearly arent (a man feeling like a woman and vice versa), shouldn't that be considered a mental illness rather than an inconsistancy? Call me crazy but i don't believe that nature assigns the wrong sex to people. I think people who have a penis are born to be a male and people born with vaginas are females. You shouldn't just be able to have your dick chopped off and be called a female, because you werent born a female.
    Again: sex and gender are *different*.

    One is biological, one is social. One your body is born with, one is a product of you and your culture.

    "Although biology determines genetically whether a human being is male or female (on the basis of the XX or XY or a variation thereof chromosomes), the state of being neither a man or a woman is sometimes considered in relation to the individual's gender role in society, gender identity, sexual orientation or any other characteristic. To different cultures or individuals, a third gender or sex may represent an intermediate state between men and women, a state of being both (such as "the spirit of a man in the body of a woman"), the state of being neither (neuter), the ability to cross or swap genders, another category altogether independent of men and women. This last definition is favored by those who argue for a strict interpretation of the "third gender" concept. In any case, all of these characterizations are defining gender and not the sex that biology gives to living beings."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

    more information further down, as well as examples.

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