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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    It's just opinion. The opinion is entirely based on how you feel, not physically, but mentally. Please realize, validity of something being 'enormous, fundamental past of someone's personality and existence', depends on the value system of the person making such an evaluation. A hoarder or an addict would use the same description for their problems. Please realize, there are people who act like the opposite sex without having any sort of transgendered identity. Tom boys and metrosexuals, both identify them self as their actual gender.
    Absolutely. And as you say, those people do not consider themselves transgender. My point is that transgendered individuals do qualify gender as a huge and fundamental part of their existence, to the point that they are willing to make serious changes in their life in order to address it. It's a spectrum, not an on/off switch.

    I'm also a little concerned that you seem to be regarding transgender issues as some sort of personality defect based on the latter part of your post. If modern attitudes and studies have taught us anything about sexual and gender preferences, it's that they're not some blown fuse or crossed wire that can be ironed out like a bad habit.

    Whether transgendered individuals become what they are via nature or nurture is besides the point - development is development, and "undoing" these kinds of deep-rooted aspects of personality isn't something that can realistically (
    or ethically) be accomplished.

    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I didn't read the actual law or bill that was written or passed. I would think that sterilization is the first part of the entire procedure to change your physical gender. I mean if you were to identify as a woman, than you wouldn't want a penis, testicles, or any other male genitalia. But I could be wrong? I'm not exactly a person in this situation, so I have no understanding of what it is like.
    As mentioned, it varies. There are many people though who are content to live with the genitals they were born with however, whether it's because they want children or simply because they're able to live their life as the opposite gender without getting hung up about what's under their clothes. If for example a transgendered individual is in a long term relationship with someone and both of them are content with their bodies, there's really no reason to subject yourself to that kind of serious surgery. Who else is really going to be seeing what's down there and making an issue of it anyway?
    Last edited by Wondercrab; 2012-01-17 at 05:19 AM.

  2. #82
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I didn't read the actual law or bill that was written or passed. I would think that sterilization is the first part of the entire procedure to change your physical gender. I mean if you were to identify as a woman, than you wouldn't want a penis, testicles, or any other male genitalia. But I could be wrong? I'm not exactly a person in this situation, so I have no understanding of what it is like.
    Sure, but surgeries are expensive, they take time, and in many places, there is mandatory counseling and therapy for years beforehand. Understandably, some transgender folks would like to be able to simply get it into the official record that they are now X instead of Y, or vice-versus without having to go through the arduous and expensive en-devours of surgery.
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  3. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Sure, but surgeries are expensive, they take time, and in many places, there is mandatory counseling and therapy for years beforehand. Understandably, some transgender folks would like to be able to simply get it into the official record that they are now X instead of Y, or vice-versus without having to go through the arduous and expensive en-devours of surgery.
    To add to that, I find really strange a forced sterilization since the hormones will do that in about a little more than a year.

  4. #84
    Actually..

    Sorry to burst some bubbles, but since the Dutch laws considering official gender-change was mentioned in that article, I feel I have to explain something:
    The Dutch system (still) only recognizes someone's official sex as altered when the transsexual has undergone full bottom surgery. It's not actually a matter of sterilization as such, even though that is one of the effects of full bottom surgery. So no; the article is wrong in nuance. The aim is not to sterilize. Sterilization is merely a result of the process.

    However... This is still complete folly either way. For instance, during a transition period, many trans people can no longer pass for the person they are according to their papers. What's worse is that these governments enforce a rule of a long period of effectively constantly crossdressing before they are even considered suitable for hormone treatment. That's right; they have to crossdress... Out in the open... Constantly... Face constant ridicule... For often as much as a year... This is especially harsh for transwomen. The social stigma is still quite severe, and it's not really easy to just cover up for most. Think of the 4-o'clock shade, for instance, or the way even expensive make-up can clash with a male's greater amount of transpiration, especially in the face. Think of retreating hairlines, the thicker, rougher skin... It's hard enough as it is.
    And even after hormone treatment has proven its effects, they still need to undergo bottom surgery, which is, by many if not most insurance companies seen as 'frivolous' (meaning: They'll refuse to pay up). So there you go, with all your uncertainties, and then you're finally starting to look like a woman... And then you have to show someone your papers. Can you imagine the humiliation?

    It's also incredibly hard on transmen. While a 'penis' can be constructed out of skin and such, it's either small (and sensitive enough, but basically just a large clitoris), or it's really just a stuffed sock made of flesh that hangs limply (until you use a fluidpump to gain an erection) that has lost all sensitivity in the process. For transmen, it's usually the best option to simply not go for bottom surgery. It costs a lot less, and you retain full functionality. You'll be able to continue to have a good sex life, even as a man with a vagina.
    But the law won't recognize you as a male. Every time you need to show your papers to someone, it'll say 'female.' And then you have to explain again, at length. People might pull your beard to test if it's real (and it is).
    So for a transman, it's not only tedious and annoying, but it can also potentially ruin your sex life. Just to get two letters removed from your ID.

    They even go as far as to make it impossible to change your name to a feminine one. Apparently, it's alright for men to be named 'Marie' at birth, but it's absolutely impossible to do so during your transition. Sense... It makes none.

    Anyway; so yes... There's quite a lot wrong with those rules. But that 'quite a lot' is not what this article wants us to believe. The article is written to not be too precise, to not actually tell the readers what is going on, but to provoke outrage at a group of the populace being treated worse than criminals or cattle.
    In short: It's not an honest article. Their motives are good, but their dishonesty isn't.
    Though they probably feel they can get use it in such a way because they're not technically lying: A person has to become infertile before being allowed to officially be another sex. However, that infertility alone is not enough to warrant a change of official sex; infertility as a result of cancer, or simply an in-born condition, doesn't give people a free-card.
    It's all about the sexual reassignment surgery. Not about sterilization.

  5. #85
    Moderator Anakso's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grinderofl View Post
    Wait.... let me see if I understand it right.

    Transgender people currently need to be sterilized before they can officially call themselves the opposite sex?

    A man is not supposed to have a vagina or ovaries. If 'he' does, 'he' is not a man.
    A woman is not supposed to have a penis or testicles. If 'she' does, 'she' is not a woman.

    If you want to become either of those, you need to get them removed, hence you're sterilized anyway.

    I don't see a problem.




    ... unless of course you want to be a woman with balls, in which case there's something really wrong with you. Fine if you want to be a woman, but at least make sure you make yourself _all_ woman, instead of a half-gender abomination.
    This pretty much.
    I mean it sounds terrible when you phrase is as "sterilization" because it makes it sound like it's an additional thing that they are doing to you, but men who become a women or women who become men, surely are sterile anyway, aren't they? And I didn't think you were recognised as the opposite sex anywhere in the world if you hadn't actually had the operation to do so yet. Could be wrong on that.

    I'm sure the Swedish government doesn't prevent them from freezing sperm or eggs in the event they do want biological children later in life.

  6. #86
    Scarab Lord Puck's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runique View Post
    I don't understand this though. If some one believes they are something that they clearly arent (a man feeling like a woman and vice versa), shouldn't that be considered a mental illness rather than an inconsistancy? Call me crazy but i don't believe that nature assigns the wrong sex to people. I think people who have a penis are born to be a male and people born with vaginas are females. You shouldn't just be able to have your dick chopped off and be called a female, because you werent born a female.
    Why? We have the means to do so, so who really cares what other people wan't to be. It really has no effect on our lives.

  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by smrund View Post
    Sure, but surgeries are expensive, they take time, and in many places, there is mandatory counseling and therapy for years beforehand. Understandably, some transgender folks would like to be able to simply get it into the official record that they are now X instead of Y, or vice-versus without having to go through the arduous and expensive en-devours of surgery.
    I was also under the impression that Swedish health care would cover such things @_@. Guess not.

  8. #88
    Dreadlord mludd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Linkedblade View Post
    I was also under the impression that Swedish health care would cover such things @_@. Guess not.
    I'm pretty sure it is covered here in Sweden, technically you'll end up paying a very small part of the costs of your treatment every year but there's a cap on how much you need to spend for healthcare (except dental for some reason). Currently I believe the cap is SEK 1800 per year for medication and then there are other caps for doctor's appointments and such things.
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  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Crowley View Post
    Funny thing; we can force sterilize transgendered people who have done NOTHING wrong, but we can't force sterilize rapists and the like. You go world.
    Why would one make more sence than the other ?

    Neither trans sexuality nor "rapism" are something you inherit from your parents.

    Both are a violation of human rights and totaly pointles. This is a very stupid law.
    Ecce homo ergo elk

  10. #90
    Technically that just sounds like they want those people to settle for a gender before making official changes and that doesn't sound too unreasonable to me. It's not that they force anybody to anything.
    Last edited by cFortyfive; 2012-01-17 at 11:04 AM.

  11. #91
    I am Murloc! Baracuda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by alms1407 View Post
    Like it was mentioned in the article Sweden clearly violates the European human rights laws.

    Question is, can Sweden be subject to an indictment by the European Court of Human Rights or will this simply slide under the radar as this can't be seen as a big issue?
    As some dude mentioned it's about being officially regocnised as the gender you want to change to.
    I find it disgusting how many people here think this is "horrible" while homosexuality etc has a death penalty in manycountries*cough*middle east*cough*

    I don't like the Swedish Government but I also don't like "human rights", they contain too much bullshit and should just cover not being discriminated and such.

    I don't see why it's such a big deal. If you want to keep your balls when changing gender to a woman... how... why not just skip it? Simply freeze your sperm if you want children later.
    Last edited by Baracuda; 2012-01-17 at 09:48 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by kbarh View Post
    may i suggest you check out wowwiki or any similar site, it's Grom that orders the murder of Cairne

  12. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    yes, but not everyone can afford or is comfortable with such surgery. the main question is, whats the big difference between that & just taking hormone pills, for all intents & purposes? the only real difference is the shape of whats down below. so why should it be necessary?
    Everyone can afford it here since it's pretty much FREE, we got socialized healthcare. You get all your hormonial treatments etc paid for by the state. They might pay 300-500 bucks all in all from their own pocket and thats over the course of a few years or whatever time it takes to complete the treatments.
    Last edited by Jackmoves; 2012-01-17 at 10:29 AM.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  13. #93
    The Insane Catta's Avatar
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    I dont really see the problem... It makes perfect sense to me that if you are a man and wants to be recognized by the state as a women then you cannot "father" a child afterwords

  14. #94
    I read the article but I am not quite sure what "sterilization" is meaning. My doctor told me that about after 6 months on hormones I will be sterile for the rest of my life and that if i ever planned on having children (which I don't) I should go and make a deposit at a certain bank and have a sample frozen for the future or whatever it is that they do with it.

  15. #95
    Pandaren Monk
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    Yup, pretty sick stuff. We Swedes are often labelled as pansy goodie-twoshoes, but there are bad eggs. Sickening.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious9876 View Post
    I read the article but I am not quite sure what "sterilization" is meaning. My doctor told me that about after 6 months on hormones I will be sterile for the rest of my life and that if i ever planned on having children (which I don't) I should go and make a deposit at a certain bank and have a sample frozen for the future or whatever it is that they do with it.
    your doctor is sterilizing you and you dont know what the word means...?

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 05:26 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Khanjin View Post
    Yup, pretty sick stuff. We Swedes are often labelled as pansy goodie-twoshoes, but there are bad eggs. Sickening.
    How is it sick... They arent forcing ANYONE... They are simply saying: In the eyes of the law you are not a female if you can still father a child and vice versa

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Crowley View Post
    Funny thing; we can force sterilize transgendered people who have done NOTHING wrong, but we can't force sterilize rapists and the like. You go world.
    I don't want to sound sinister or anything, or that I condone what rapists are, but in my opinion, sterilizing them is almost like giving them a free pass to do it whenever they want because they can't get her pregnant.

    Just remove their genitals.
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  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by TreezusSaves View Post
    Who said the Nazis were made powerless after WW2? They're doing just fine in continental Europe.
    And your definition of Nazi is "everything I don't like", right? Think before you say something, just look at how many non-western immigrants live in Europe.

  19. #99
    Sweden, making the world more pure since '2012.

    this is seriously fucked up.
    RIP Steve Jobs. a great man who gave the world great products.

  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by -Dalliah- View Post
    The hell? I haven't heard anything about this in the news over here in Sweden.

    State media can cover up everything it doesnt want its people to know.


    The internet tells them everything that their Government is trying to cover up

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