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  1. #141
    Bloodsail Admiral Melanieshaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AssaultDrone View Post
    The case could be made that you are recognized as the gender that you are, but that you are choosing to call yourself a gender that you really aren't.
    what do you mean "you really aren't". I was born male, yes. But i identify as female. I am legally considered female (for 99% of situations). Only my birth certificate says Male. NOONE i know calls me by my birth name (except my mother on occasion- but she's senile LMAO-no she's still getting used to it). My birth name and gender are the past, no longer an issue. I think once one has hit a certain milestone in transition they should be considered their "target gender". I agree you shouldn't be able to wake up one day and say "HEY! now i am a chick!" and be allowed to continue that way legally, etc. It takes time, and it is NOT something to be pursued lightly.
    Last edited by Melanieshaman; 2012-01-17 at 11:21 PM.

  2. #142
    I am Murloc! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AssaultDrone View Post
    If you have a surgically created vagina, can you have a baby grow inside of you? If you can, you're female. If not, you're still male.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-17 at 11:15 PM ----------



    Politicians and activists with too much time on their hands.
    what about males with naturally created vaginas? infertile females?
    basically, "whats down below" cannot be reliably used as any sort of indication 100% of the time. much less the ability to "have a baby" or not.

  3. #143
    To be honest I really do not see how this any different than the US.

    If "sterilization" in the article is talking about chemical castration then just being on hormones will do that for you anyway.

    If "sterilization" means removal of your testes/ovaries depending which way you are transitioning well that is a bit different. But either way reproduction will never be possible if that is what the aim of this is going for. (I have briefly scanned through the few pages here)

    But in the US you are unable to change your birth certificate from M to F unless you send in documentation that you had sexual reassignment surgery. Even getting your driver's license changed from M to an F is almost impossible without documentation as well due to all the security measures that have gone into place. From research I have done it was MUCH easier to change years ago. So essentially how is it any different from what they are doing in Sweden? People in the US who chose not to have surgery will always carry around that big M on all their important documents until surgery.

  4. #144
    Bloodsail Admiral Melanieshaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Victorious9876 View Post
    To be honest I really do not see how this any different than the US.

    If "sterilization" in the article is talking about chemical castration then just being on hormones will do that for you anyway.

    If "sterilization" means removal of your testes/ovaries depending which way you are transitioning well that is a bit different. But either way reproduction will never be possible if that is what the aim of this is going for. (I have briefly scanned through the few pages here)

    But in the US you are unable to change your birth certificate from M to F unless you send in documentation that you had sexual reassignment surgery. Even getting your driver's license changed from M to an F is almost impossible without documentation as well due to all the security measures that have gone into place. From research I have done it was MUCH easier to change years ago. So essentially how is it any different from what they are doing in Sweden? People in the US who chose not to have surgery will always carry around that big M on all their important documents until surgery.
    mostly true. The ONLY piece of paperwork that has an M on it in my world is my birth certificate. As for my DL, all i needed was a form filled out (provided by the dmv) and signed by my doctor overseeing my transition. It was really pretty easy. Just annoying that i have to go back every year to keep the F on it. Well til this year, my doc put that my transition is complete, so i can have a normal 3 year(?) DL

  5. #145
    The article just makes it out to sound like something overly horrible when in fact it is pretty much the same rules as we have here in the US. You must be lucky and live in a state where it is possible. Where I live I need documentation for the DMV from a SRS surgeon saying that I had surgery and that I am complete.

    Which is kind of irritating because my name change is legalized so everything I have and own is in my new name. But yet that stupid pesky M on my drivers license and BC make it very awkward when trying to find a job. >_>

  6. #146
    Pit Lord crakerjack's Avatar
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    I'm confused... is transgender when you get the operation to become the other sex? If so... why is it bad if you get sterilized? You won't have what you initially had before.

    Most likely the wisest Enhancement Shaman.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by crakerjack View Post
    I'm confused... is transgender when you get the operation to become the other sex? If so... why is it bad if you get sterilized? You won't have what you initially had before.
    Transgender is a very "broad" range I guess is the right way to say it. People transitioning from either male to female or vice versa are considered transgender. Sexual reassignment surgery is where people have surgery to get genitalia of the other gender. Not sure if that answers your question.

    I think people are getting all worked up because of the word "forced".

  8. #148
    High Overlord Antech's Avatar
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    You say what now? o.O

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by TreezusSaves View Post
    Who said the Nazis were made powerless after WW2? They're doing just fine in continental Europe.
    if you think about it, they got exactly what they wanted, all the jewish people are out of germany and they are dominant nation in europe

  10. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by mizeri View Post
    if you think about it, they got exactly what they wanted, all the jewish people are out of germany and they are dominant nation in europe
    Yeah, except homosexuality is very accepted, alot of people with foreign backgrounds now live in Europe etc.

    You should be more worried about the old communists who are now in the environmental movement.

    OT: Old laws like these scare the crap out of me. There are alot of very bizarre old laws that are still on the books, just not enforced. I bet there are still places where oral or anal sex is illegal.

  11. #151
    Am I the only one who noticed the "before the state recognises their gender" Umm who gives a shit if the state thinks you're a man or a women? At the end of the day it should be about if the person is happy with who or what they are not about whether the states recognises it or not, although forced sterilisation is pretty extreme to be fair.

  12. #152
    Bloodsail Admiral Melanieshaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Senchae View Post
    Am I the only one who noticed the "before the state recognises their gender" Umm who gives a shit if the state thinks you're a man or a women? At the end of the day it should be about if the person is happy with who or what they are not about whether the states recognises it or not, although forced sterilisation is pretty extreme to be fair.
    well the state issues your IDs, etc i don't know about others, but getting that F on my DL was HUGE, well that and i got my new name on it the same day. awesome day indeed.

  13. #153
    Am I the only one who noticed the "before the state recognises their gender" Umm who gives a shit if the state thinks you're a man or a women?
    I elaborated on that a bit on page.. 5, I think.

    Basically, every time you need to get something done in your life.. Taxes, alcohol-tests, getting into a club, getting a credit-card, going to the bank, buying a train ticket... Every time you need to identify yourself, you will run into some sort of duplicity, where your appearance tells people one thing, while your papers tell them a completely different thing. You'll get funny looks, embarrassment, the whole blushing and stammering thing, people being uneasy...
    And here's a funny thing of which I've heard several reliable accounts, and even seen one on a reality show: Customs. Customs have to be the worst. There was this woman who wanted to go somewhere by airline. She wasn't even going abroad. However, she was pulled over in customs because her ID clearly said 'male.' She spent the night in a holding cell, got thrown in a single cell with male prisoners (they wouldn't put her with the female prisoners because of her ID) and was physically examined... Forcefully; just on the edge of rape. Quite an atrocious event, where the 'investigators' were trying to prove she was a man, or flying under a fake ID.

    There's quite a good reason to want to have your paper edited, even far before you're ready for your SRS.

  14. #154
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stir View Post
    I elaborated on that a bit on page.. 5, I think.

    Basically, every time you need to get something done in your life.. Taxes, alcohol-tests, getting into a club, getting a credit-card, going to the bank, buying a train ticket... Every time you need to identify yourself, you will run into some sort of duplicity, where your appearance tells people one thing, while your papers tell them a completely different thing. You'll get funny looks, embarrassment, the whole blushing and stammering thing, people being uneasy...
    And here's a funny thing of which I've heard several reliable accounts, and even seen one on a reality show: Customs. Customs have to be the worst. There was this woman who wanted to go somewhere by airline. She wasn't even going abroad. However, she was pulled over in customs because her ID clearly said 'male.' She spent the night in a holding cell, got thrown in a single cell with male prisoners (they wouldn't put her with the female prisoners because of her ID) and was physically examined... Forcefully; just on the edge of rape. Quite an atrocious event, where the 'investigators' were trying to prove she was a man, or flying under a fake ID.

    There's quite a good reason to want to have your paper edited, even far before you're ready for your SRS.
    And if not by sterilization then how do you decide when someone should be recognized as the opposite sex...? Many of these transgender men certainly dont look like ladies... If they also still have their ability to procreate then they are quite frankly still men...

    Should some bureaurat in some dusty office go through pictures and decide who is now female all depending on pictures? Or should we just make people the other gender when they feel like it...

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-18 at 11:08 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Melanieshaman View Post
    I'm not sure i understand what you're asking. For a trans person to KNOW they are trans the government should tell them by sterilizing them? That's ridiculous! I knew i was trans at 5 years of age. Nearly every trans person i have known or seen interviewed knew at a young age, if you're speaking legally? Once someone has been through all the steps of the Harry Benjamin standards of care ( hrt, therapy, RLE, etc) that should be enough for for the government. Also as i said above, after 2 years on HRT i AM sterile, I don't need anyone telling me i am what i already know i am.
    So its chemical sterilization and if you stop taking it then you will go back to not being sterile again...?

  15. #155
    Bloodsail Admiral Melanieshaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    And if not by sterilization then how do you decide when someone should be recognized as the opposite sex...? Many of these transgender men certainly dont look like ladies... If they also still have their ability to procreate then they are quite frankly still men...

    Should some bureaurat in some dusty office go through pictures and decide who is now female all depending on pictures? Or should we just make people the other gender when they feel like it...

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-18 at 11:08 PM ----------



    So its chemical sterilization and if you stop taking it then you will go back to not being sterile again...?
    I'm last the LAST person to claim they understand all the science, but i know my anti-androgens lower my testosterone levels to around the levels of a genetic woman's level. Does it go "back up" if i stop taking them? I would guess so, but honestly i have no idea. I don't take AAs to become sterile, i take them to keep my T levels down to keep secondary sex characteristics of males away (hair growth, etc). Sorry, i am no biologist, but i am more than happy to try and help people understand.

  16. #156
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanieshaman View Post
    I'm last the LAST person to claim they understand all the science, but i know my anti-androgens lower my testosterone levels to around the levels of a genetic woman's level. Does it go "back up" if i stop taking them? I would guess so, but honestly i have no idea. I don't take AAs to become sterile, i take them to keep my T levels down to keep secondary sex characteristics of males away (hair growth, etc). Sorry, i am no biologist, but i am more than happy to try and help people understand.
    The point is that while you are practically sterile you are technically only infertile...

  17. #157
    Bloodsail Admiral Melanieshaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    The point is that while you are practically sterile you are technically only infertile...
    I suppose so, as i said i don't know if it's permanent or not. Now, If i had an Orchidectomy, now THEN i would be permanently sterile (obviously :P)

  18. #158
    The Insane Cattaclysmic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanieshaman View Post
    I suppose so, as i said i don't know if it's permanent or not. Now, If i had an Orchidectomy, now THEN i would be permanently sterile (obviously :P)
    and thats the point - its a very definitive way of defining when someone is of the opposite gender... Because how else should you determine it? By how people look - by how they personally feel although they look like a man who then waltz into a women's locker room etc etc etc...

  19. #159
    Bloodsail Admiral Melanieshaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cattaclysmic View Post
    and thats the point - its a very definitive way of defining when someone is of the opposite gender... Because how else should you determine it? By how people look - by how they personally feel although they look like a man who then waltz into a women's locker room etc etc etc...
    As i stated before, documentation... It took me nearly two years of HRT, and therapy to get a letter from my doctor to change the M to a F on my DL, and a whole month of waiting after filing and over 500 bucks to the courts to change my name. If someone is willing to go through everything i have just to get a sneak peak at naked ladies... then well that's a whole other issue...

    Here ya go... http://transhealth.vch.ca/resources/...rmones-MTF.pdf

    Main quote i got "Although anti-androgens and estrogen affect sperm production and can
    make you permanently sterile
    , there may still be a chance that you could
    make someone pregnant even after starting hormone therapy. Depending
    on how you have sex, you may need to consider birth control options."

    "When starting hormone therapy" so my guess is it will eventually make you sterile.
    Last edited by Melanieshaman; 2012-01-19 at 12:00 AM.

  20. #160
    Bloodsail Admiral Talokami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Melanieshaman View Post
    As i stated before, documentation... It took me nearly two years of HRT, and therapy to get a letter from my doctor to change the M to a F on my DL, and a whole month of waiting after filing and over 500 bucks to the courts to change my name. If someone is willing to go through everything i have just to get a sneak peak at naked ladies... then well that's a whole other issue...

    Here ya go... http://transhealth.vch.ca/resources/...rmones-MTF.pdf

    Main quote i got "Although anti-androgens and estrogen affect sperm production and can
    make you permanently sterile
    , there may still be a chance that you could
    make someone pregnant even after starting hormone therapy. Depending
    on how you have sex, you may need to consider birth control options."

    "When starting hormone therapy" so my guess is it will eventually make you sterile.
    I can confirm HRT will make you sterile. I'm speaking for the FTM side of the coin, mind you, but after testosterone injection begins FTM's have a seven month where conception is possible. There have a been a few cases where transmen have become pregnant after HRT and before having SRS, but that would definitely be an extreme and not the norm. HRT is in a way a chemical sterilization as the extreme levels of opposite sex hormones and hormone blockers render any reproductive material inert.
    That fabric softener teddy bear...oooh I'm 'a hunt that little bitch down.

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