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  1. #41
    Bloodsail Admiral Talokami's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runique View Post
    I don't understand this though. If some one believes they are something that they clearly arent (a man feeling like a woman and vice versa), shouldn't that be considered a mental illness rather than an inconsistancy? Call me crazy but i don't believe that nature assigns the wrong sex to people. I think people who have a penis are born to be a male and people born with vaginas are females. You shouldn't just be able to have your dick chopped off and be called a female, because you werent born a female.
    Most standards of care have transgenderism labeled as a psychiatric disorder, which is a huge debate in and of itself. The issue there is labeling it as disease which some feel is humiliating and debilitating. It also makes the transitioning process even more frustrating, as you have to have a psychiatrist confirming the diagnosis before beginning hormones or being approved for surgery. Plus, you have to find a psychiatrist that will work with transgender patients. Many don't.

    It's a very complex issue and I understand that it's hard to wrap the mind around and the best I can say is that, yes I really do feel that my sex and gender do not match.
    That fabric softener teddy bear...oooh I'm 'a hunt that little bitch down.

  2. #42
    The Insane smrund's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    Why does every thing has to be Human Rights? What they are doing is wrong, but doubt its against human rights. Who decides what is human rights by the way?
    In this case, the UN. And their various Human Rights treaties. Ya know, the ones that Sweden has signed on to.
    Quote Originally Posted by Masark View Post
    People in cars cause accidents. Accidents in cars cause people.
    Sometimes life gives you lemons, other times life gives you boobies. Life is always better with more boobies.
    Blizzard removed my subscription from WoD's features, it'll be added sometime later.
    And thus I give you: MALE contraception!

  3. #43
    I knew our government was horrible, but this is just sad :/

  4. #44
    Old God
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    It's the Christian Party that doesn't want get rid of this, who is suprised? Religion is shit, they were against gay marriage as well. Religion should have NO place in politics, actually just get rid of religion all together. Everyone els pretty much wants this law trashed.

    <Infracted> Please refrain from religion-bashing.
    Last edited by Dacien; 2012-01-17 at 05:27 PM.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  5. #45
    Epic! Kisuro's Avatar
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    Doesn't sex change surgery pretty much make a person sterile anyway? If it does, I could see some (some!) sense in this - sterilisation as sort of "proof" you actually did change your gender, and can now legally be considered a person of the opposite gender.
    If, however, sex change surgery does not make one sterile, then this is just wrong.

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisuro View Post
    Doesn't sex change surgery pretty much make a person sterile anyway? If it does, I could see some (some!) sense in this - sterilisation as sort of "proof" you actually did change your gender, and can now legally be considered a person of the opposite gender.
    If, however, sex change surgery does not make one sterile, then this is just wrong.
    Many transgendered people do not choose to undergo sex change surgery (for understandable reasons). It's very common for many to live their lives as a member of the opposite sex without putting themselves through such a serious procedure.

  7. #47
    I had never heard of this before, but apparently this has been the policy in Sweden for the last 40 years.

    The following is taken from Wikipedia:

    “The possibility to change legal gender in Sweden, either through full surgery or partial surgery and hormonal treatment, has been available since 1972 provided one meets several criteria. One has to be a Swedish citizen and 18 years old, unmarried, sterilized and having lived for two years as the opposite gender.”

    Setting aside all arguments of what “gender” is and how and when it is determined, what I find questionable here is why sterilization would be relevant at all.

    It seems from these criteria that sterilization would be unnecessary from a medical perspective since “full surgery or partial surgery and hormone treatment “ would have the same result, loss of reproductive ability (if this is not correct feel free to enlighten me). So it must be there for a reason, other than for the sole purpose of dehumanizing another human being or course.

    I have to admit I’m a bit surprised by the lack of awareness/ tacit approval of such a policy on the part of the Swedish people, but then again it seems things like this are only a problem when OTHER countries are doing them.

  8. #48
    Brewmaster Wiyld's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    Again: sex and gender are *different*.

    One is biological, one is social. One your body is born with, one is a product of you and your culture.

    "Although biology determines genetically whether a human being is male or female (on the basis of the XX or XY or a variation thereof chromosomes), the state of being neither a man or a woman is sometimes considered in relation to the individual's gender role in society, gender identity, sexual orientation or any other characteristic. To different cultures or individuals, a third gender or sex may represent an intermediate state between men and women, a state of being both (such as "the spirit of a man in the body of a woman"), the state of being neither (neuter), the ability to cross or swap genders, another category altogether independent of men and women. This last definition is favored by those who argue for a strict interpretation of the "third gender" concept. In any case, all of these characterizations are defining gender and not the sex that biology gives to living beings."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_gender

    more information further down, as well as examples.


    Do not make claims of fact based on opinions.

    Sure appears that the separation of sex and gender is a clever mechanic to justify the claim.

    And please, you keep claiming that its perfectly normal for societies to recognize a third gender. What societies are you talking about? Please don't throw some tribe in Madagascar at me either. Where in the world is it accepted that a human being is capable of being genderless? Even using the Wiki example of India, what is your point? Those people are Eunuchs, that isn't a new idea. Just because one of them claimed that he had attained some 'other' sex means nothing more then me claiming I talk to God in my head. As for the 'ladyboys' in the Thai example, well sorry to burst your and Wikkis bubble but those are male prostitutes. Any wonder that its in Thailand? The world sex capital?

    End of the story, you are born with a particular set of chromosomes, claiming that you know better then nature is the height of arrogance. No matter how much you enjoyed wearing your moms high heels. I mean FFS your own example of the Wikki page explains how an 'alternate gender' was an excuse many many many gay people used throughout history to justify to their peers how they behaved.
    Last edited by Wiyld; 2012-01-17 at 01:02 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gillern View Post
    "IM LOOKING AT A THING I DONT LIKE, I HAVE THE OPTION TO GO AWAY FROM IT BUT I WILL LOOK MORE AND COMPLAIN ABOUT THE THING I DONT LIKE BECAUSE I DONT LIKE IT, NO ONE IS FORCING ME TO SEARCH FOR THIS THING OR LOOK AT THIS THING OR REMAIN LOOKING AT THIS THING BUT I AM ANYWAY, ITS OFFENDS ME! ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME ME!!!"
    Troof

  9. #49
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    ^It's been in most newspapers, most people I know have heard about this.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Crowley View Post
    Funny thing; we can force sterilize transgendered people who have done NOTHING wrong, but we can't force sterilize rapists and the like. You go world.
    ^Greatest thing ever said.

  11. #51
    Okay, apparently Sweden isn't the ideal country I thought it was.

    Canada?

  12. #52
    I am Murloc! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by runique View Post
    I don't understand this though. If some one believes they are something that they clearly arent (a man feeling like a woman and vice versa), shouldn't that be considered a mental illness rather than an inconsistancy? Call me crazy but i don't believe that nature assigns the wrong sex to people. I think people who have a penis are born to be a male and people born with vaginas are females. You shouldn't just be able to have your dick chopped off and be called a female, because you werent born a female.
    sex isnt clear cut. there xy males with vaginas (androgen insensitivity syndrome). Xxx, xxy, hermaphrodites, etc etc.
    "gender" has more to do with behavior, not genetics.

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiyld View Post
    Do not make claims of fact based on opinions.

    Sure appears that the separation of sex and gender is a clever mechanic to justify the claim.

    And please, you keep claiming that its perfectly normal for societies to recognize a third gender. What societies are you talking about? Please don't throw some tribe in Madagascar at me either. Where in the world is it accepted that a human being is capable of being genderless? Even using the Wiki example of India, what is your point? Those people are Eunuchs, that isn't a new idea. Just because one of them claimed that he had attained some 'other' sex means nothing more then me claiming I talk to God in my head. As for the 'ladyboys' in the Thai example, well sorry to burst your and Wikkis bubble but those are male prostitutes. Any wonder that its in Thailand? The world sex capital?

    End of the story, you are born with a particular set of chromosomes, claiming that you know better then nature is the height of arrogance. No matter how much you enjoyed wearing your moms high heels. I mean FFS your own example of the Wikki page explains how an 'alternate gender' was an excuse many many many gay people used throughout history to justify to their peers how they behaved.
    Let's take apart your attacks at me, considering your entire post is an ill-hidden "you transgender/ gay fag stop making shit up".

    1. I am a female. Who hates wearing high heels.
    2. I identify as a female, though I'm utterly uninterested in relationship with either sex. This makes me fundamentally not gay (and, for that matter, not really straight, as I don't find either sex "attractive" sexually).

    You need to stop thinking of sex and gender as the same. They are not. One is biological, one is not. One is unchangeable, the other is flexible depending on culture and individual.

    If you actually read the points listed, you'd see that they weren't just claiming to be eunuchs. They were, in fact, claiming that they were neither a man, nor a woman, nor a man trying to be a woman or a woman trying to be a man. They are something outside them.

    "




    Mahu (Hawaii)
    Last Updated by brookish on May 18, 2011
    Long before Cook's arrival in Hawaii, a multiple gender tradition existed among the Kanaka Maoli indigenous society. The mahu could be biological males or females inhabiting a gender role somewhere between or encompassing both the masculine and feminine. Their social role is sacred as educators and promulgators of ancient traditions and rituals. The arrival of Europeans and the colonization of Hawaii nearly eliminated the native culture, and today mahu face discrimination in a culture dominated by white European ideology about gender."

    "
    The Navajo term nadleehi refers to that culture's traditional third gender, in which a biologically male-born person embodies both the masculine and feminine spirit. Dilbaa refers to a female-born person with a more masculine spirit. Both are considered to encompass both genders in one person.

    Fred Martinez, the subject of the documentary Two Spirits, was nadleehi. Navajo tradition places nadleehi and dilbaa in high esteem and they often assume roles as healers in their tribes."

    "The Bugi people of southern Sulawesi recognize three sexes (male, female, intersex) and five genders: men, women, calabai, calalai, and bissu. Calabai are biological males who embody a feminine gender identity. Calalai are biological females who embody a male gender identity. Bissu are considered a "transcendent gender," either encompassing all genders or none at all. The bissu serve ritual roles in Bugi culture and are sometimes equated with priests."

    "
    In Maori culture, wakawahine are men who prefer the company of women and take up traiditionally feminine occupations such as weaving. Wakatane denotes a biological female who pursues traditionally male roles, such as becoming a warrior or engaging in physical labor. "

    "Fa'afafine are biological males who have a strong feminine gender orientation, which the Samoan parents recognize quite early in childhood, and then raise them as female children or rather third gender children. Fa'afafine traditionally assume roles of family care, although they are present in many spheres of Somoan society: painter and writer Dan Taulapapa McMullin, artist and curator Shigeyuki Kihara, poet and performance artist Brian Fuata, and fashion artist Lindah Lepou are all famous fa'afafine.

    Fa'afafine are not considered "gay" in Samoan culture, as they may be sexually involved with men, women, or other fa'afafine."


    http://www.pbs.org/independentlens/two-spirits/map.html


    Gender and sex are different. Gender is not a single slider, no matter how much you want to believe.

  14. #54
    Herald of the Titans
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    Many of the Native American tribes had cross-gender roles.

    However, one would think that by sterilizing oneself would help one come closer to the gender they would want to be. Say a woman, that was born with male genitalia, want to be as close physically to a woman as possible: Wouldn't she want to rid of all of her male genitalia?

    A transgender person could never actually become the gender he or she wanted. Yet, wouldn't being the body of a sterilized woman, technically be the same as a sterilized man? Am I somehow missing the point here? Wouldn't taking hormones of a gender conflict with the genitalia of the opposite gender?

    I am not trying to cause an argument; I really just want to understand what exactly the problem is here. Perhaps someone in with experience with family or friends explain this. I have friends that are homosexual, and I could care less about their gender or sex.

  15. #55
    Herald of the Titans Irisel's Avatar
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    WOW, that's fucked up!

    Rule of Thumb: If the healer's HPS is higher than your DPS, you're doing it wrong.

  16. #56
    Epic! Kisuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    Gender and sex are different. Gender is not a single slider, no matter how much you want to believe.
    Yes, sure. However, my ID has a field that says "sex", and I'm fairly certain this is what the Swedish goverment is getting at (mostly because I don't want to think it could be otherwise, as it would be downright crazy) - in order to be legally considered a member of the sex you not were born, you need to undergo an operatrion, which sterilizes you anyway. While gender may be a complicated thing (and I do agree with that), sex is not.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Kisuro View Post
    Yes, sure. However, my ID has a field that says "sex", and I'm fairly certain this is what the Swedish goverment is getting at (mostly because I don't want to think it could be otherwise, as it would be downright crazy) - in order to be legally considered a member of the sex you not were born, you need to undergo an operatrion, which sterilizes you anyway. While gender may be a complicated thing (and I do agree with that), sex is not.
    That post was in response to someone saying transgendered people have mental diseases for not acting their sex, not legal recognition/ ID cards

  18. #58
    Old God
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kisuro View Post
    Yes, sure. However, my ID has a field that says "sex", and I'm fairly certain this is what the Swedish goverment is getting at (mostly because I don't want to think it could be otherwise, as it would be downright crazy) - in order to be legally considered a member of the sex you not were born, you need to undergo an operatrion, which sterilizes you anyway. While gender may be a complicated thing (and I do agree with that), sex is not.
    No one really knows why this law is still in place, the medical commission that has looked into it for the government basicaly said "get rid off it",,, it's the christian party which is part of our government that holds it back, it's gonna be scratched sooner or later though.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  19. #59
    Epic! Kisuro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vanyali View Post
    That post was in response to someone saying transgendered people have mental diseases for not acting their sex, not legal recognition/ ID cards
    That'll teach me to skim long posts while under the influence of being at work.
    I still stand by the point I made, however misguided me making it was

    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    No one really knows why this law is still in place, the medical commission that has looked into it for the government basicaly said "get rid off it",,, it's the christian party which is part of our government that holds it back, it's gonna be scratched sooner or later though.
    Ah yes, the christian party.... we have one of those here as well, and they get all sorts of crazy ideas.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Wiyld View Post
    End of the story, you are born with a particular set of chromosomes, claiming that you know better then nature is the height of arrogance. No matter how much you enjoyed wearing your moms high heels. I mean FFS your own example of the Wikki page explains how an 'alternate gender' was an excuse many many many gay people used throughout history to justify to their peers how they behaved.
    I think the height of arrogance is far better defined by commenting on an issue that you you apparently have no understanding of. "No matter how much you enjoyed wearing your mom's high heels" is just about one of the most ignorant things I've ever heard. Transgendered people aren't transvestites and girls who like wearing pants. They're people whose brains function like those of a member of the opposite sex.
    It's an enormous, fundamental past of someone's personality and existence. The way I like to describe it is along the lines of: imagine if you woke up tomorrow and you were in the body of the opposite sex. Imagine if everyone started judging you as a member of that sex and expected you to behave in accordance with those expectations, despite the fact that you knew you were someone different. Every day you have to behave and live your life in the way your sex dictates you should in society, no matter how uncomfortable it makes you feel. If you try to live your life in the way that feels most natural to you, you suffer society's judgement for doing so.

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