About Ferals.

[NightZero88]

You're also aware that all Frost mage roots and Deep Freeze can be dispelled, that a competent team will have a dispeller, and that each Frost mage root is not on its own DR timer, right?

This applies for any class. A competent team with a dispeller will dispel a dk, a rogue, a warrior, an enh shammy all the same as they would a feral. What the heck is the point of this statement? Are you trying to imply a competent team will only have a dispel if a feral is in it?

And no other DR timers, along with no cooldown.

But no longer instant cast after the first one either. Which means then you're hard casting a 1.5 sec spell. Good luck getting that off and if you do, your enemy team is hardcore bad.

You have been whining non-fucking-stop about feral OPness this entire thread

Fixed to apply to you as well. See, I can do that trick too.

Quit yer fucking bitching already. God forbid Ferals have an actual weakness.

You just need to stop, you have shown in multiple threads you don't know how ferals work and play at a 1500 arena rating max. Please just stop tossing out garbage. Ferals have TONS of weakness, God forbid you actually learn what they are and how to use them (see what I did there?)

[tinkabela]

I'm fairly sure this thread has been completely derailed now

[SkillOverKill]

I'm fairly sure this thread has been completely derailed now

It's exactly where it began, people learn things here even if they refuse to admit it publically. (For example, I suspect many of the ferals in here have bound their bear form to a key after reading how much it annoys the rest of us! ^^).

[tinkabela]

It's exactly where it began, people learn things here even if they refuse to admit it publically. (For example, I suspect many of the ferals in here have bound their bear form to a key after reading how much it annoys the rest of us! ^^).

I see what you did there!

on topic: I really feel the crux of it all is instant cast cyclones. Everything else can be overlooked as being slightly above average for a melee, and can be countered in some way, it's just when you combine all their abilities that make them a very good (and imo fairly balanced - auto-applied snares aside), that when you add in instant undispellable cyclones, they basically become far too powerful.

Now if you took away some of their other utility, like 145% run speed, their instant cyclone becomes less of an issue (easier to outrange)
Same goes for slow clearing ability by shifting

They have a large toolbox to use in pvp, which personally I think is good, it's just they have one of the best CCs in the game, combined with an instant-cast when they get procs.

I'd like to see other melee brought up to the level of feral, not have feral nerfed down to TBC standards where they were virtually unrepresented at all.

A few ways to balance ferals might be:
1. Remove the instant-cast cyclones by removing Predator's Swiftness (or whatever its called)
2. Remove Predator's Swiftness, and make combo points work like maelstrom weapon and provide a 20% cast reduce, essentially making 5 combo points instant cast cyclone - making them choose between damage and CC
3. Make cyclone cost energy (in cat form), maybe 25? to restrict its use slightly (edit: this wouldn't really work as they would shift out before using it, but you see my point)

Personally I'd opt for the second, as it would bring a bit more skill into the class.

Oh and I play warrior, not played a feral in 3 years.

edit: oh and I love the feral players saying they get pwnd if caught in caster form.

you do realise that while in caster form and stunned you are:
1. In virtually same position as a rogue (leather armor) (although they may 6% less damage with recup and 20%more heal with quickening)
2. Virtually same as a clothie (mage aside) with their armor boosters on
3. Same as any clothies/plate vs spells

Please show me the patch notes that state you take more damage in caster form than all other classes?

[Wolfdragon]

You just prove your bias retardness with every post you make. Fear doesn't break on dots? Your brain is dead since fear threshhold is 10% hp, and every sneeze at target makes fear break. You don't have fear breaker? What a sad story, but most other classes do (and 30% you'll meet in arena are undead with 1 more fear breaker) it's easilly dispellable, aoe countered by tremor, competent healers LoS casts, ground casts, tremor casts, shock casts. Most competent warlocks aren't even relying on spamming fear any more since it's more usefull to spread dmg and let their partner finish somebody in smokebomb or deep freeze switch.

And no i'm not playing warlock (althought i did in the past), i'm playing retri and every time me or my teammate dieing to RLS it's becouse of rogue hardswitch with bomb and insane burst, not becouse warlock CCed our wholle team. And yes i consider rogues over the top. But listening to you defending your overpowered spec with most insane instant unavoidable undispellable CC, craziest uptime on target, unrivaled defensive cds makes me think you're diaf handicaped idiot.

And lol more shit from you down the thread, you argue that ferals don't have best gap closers? You're idiot becouse 15% speed increase is noticable, you have it at 45%. You're talking about Junglecleave killing ppls 100-0 being fine, "becouse nobody peeled" but who the fuck would peel when healer's standing in scatter-trap-silence shot and 2d partner in cyclone, repeat few times into game and collect your points (that's if you didn't overpower them with retarded dmg yet). Btw majority of dmg comming from jungle cleave is from feral. And yet you're comparing your slows to DK spec with stun on 1 min cd, silence on 2 min cd and lower dmg then you? Or with warriors, who're in desperate need of buffs?

To sum it up you're either a complete retard or handicaped person or just a guy who simply wants his ride on fotm train to last longer. And hey i've news for you - most likely you'll be riding on it till MoP couse Blizzard couldn't care less about current game, but in MoP when they'll remove overpowered bear cd's from your dps tree you'll be crying here how's your live is hard as a cat.

P.S. And finally hotfix from 02/05/2011: Due to the damage increase when Unstable Affliction is dispelled post-patch 4.1, the spell power coefficient applied to its dispel damage has been reduced. There, UA got nerfed, it's scalling went down the drain. Your bluff is called, retard.

Oh wait, I forgot to say your partners have trinkets and you have defencive cooldowns for that 100-0 situation, as it can't happen without berserk+rapid fire, still going on about other classes that undeniably have better slows and defencives as strong as feral ones with the argument they need buffs or are nothing compared to feral? If I could have 1/2 of the cc immunity a dk did, I'd gladly give him my bearform, but nop, that's impossible, so go figure. I don't feel like arguing with a bias person who has no idea what necrotic strike does as opposed to actual dmg, just wow, you can't be that desperate.

[tinkabela]

Oh wait, I forgot to say your partners have trinkets and you have defencive cooldowns for that 100-0 situation, as it can't happen without berserk+rapid fire, still going on about other classes that undeniably have better slows and defencives as strong as feral ones with the argument they need buffs or are nothing compared to feral? If I could have 1/2 of the cc immunity a dk did, I'd gladly give him my bearform, but nop, that's impossible, so go figure. I don't feel like arguing with a bias person who has no idea what necrotic strike does as opposed to actual dmg, just wow, you can't be that desperate.

ferals are fine because DKs get an overpowered necrotic strike? flawless logic applied.

[Phoenexis]

This applies for any class. A competent team with a dispeller will dispel a dk, a rogue, a warrior, an enh shammy all the same as they would a feral. What the heck is the point of this statement? Are you trying to imply a competent team will only have a dispel if a feral is in it?

Warriors have magic effects? Oh I didn't know that, thanks for the info!

Also, you will find much more classes with magic dispels rather than disease/poison dispels, which proves that Mages are more prone to being dispelled.
Ferals only suffer from offensive dispels, which is available to Priests, mages, shamans, warlocks (15 sec cd lol, doesn't really count...) and hunters (for 20 focus). Seeing as in most cases offensive dispelling is much more penalizing than defensive dispelling (available for Priests, Warlocks on 6 sec cd, Druids, Shamans and Paladins), Frost mages are more prone to dispels than Ferals. Your argument is thus invalid.

Thanks for the laugh though.


If this weren't fun I think I would've stopped posting a long time ago. It really isn't worth arguing with you pro-ferals when you dismiss so many arguments.

[Shaderas]

Just shortly then, since I've already explained all of this multiple times:

• We are vulnerable to Roots because our counters don't grant any immunity, are on long cooldowns and are also comparatively ineffective against Root-heavy specs, as elaborated above.
• Snares are applied multiplicatively, i.e. the faster you are, the more you get snared.
• We are not immune to Polymorph.
• We cannot ignore Scare Beast or Hibernate against players smart enough to not stop using them entirely after they were shifted once.
• We have no defense against Fear whatsoever.

Ok, going to try and address point for point, but not be biased.

Vulnerability to roots: Slightly more vulnerable then rogues, probably. We have Cloak of Shadows and Vanish... that's it. You have Dash and Stampeding roar. 2.4 minutes and 2 minutes. Cloak 1.5 minutes talented, Vanish 2 minutes talented. Gap closers are similar with Rogue... with higher base speed I'd put them about on par. Cloak does give immunity for 5 seconds if it's magical, Cloak shares cooldown with Combat Readiness which is a HUGE survival cooldown for rogues against any physical damage.

Snares: Yes, the faster you move the more you get snared, however the affect applied after movement reduction is you still move faster than someone that doesn't have your movement speed. I.e. you will never move slower snared, than anyone else snared.

Immunity to Polymorph: Immune while in Bear/Cat forms. Vulnerable to Scare Beast and Hibernate while in that form. This is the kicker here... a great Feral (who is not in a CC chain), can shift forms to avoid scare beast and hibernate, then shift back. Yes it's globals, but to avoid CC it is usually worth it.

No defense against fear: Barkskin for one, if it's up. While it doesn't prevent fear, it can be used while feared. Making the likelihood that you will survive that much more. Honestly the only big thing most people have vs fear is trinket. DKs have Lichborne if they spec it (pvp they should), Hunters have Master's call (this works right? Haven't pvp'ed with hunter in a while), Rogues can cloak it if they see the fear coming, if it's not they have to trinket it, and if they dont have trinket, they are more vulnerable than ferals in it. Only commented on the classes I'm playing...


Before you start railing at me... I don't believe Ferals are terribly OP. However, they are strong, testing one right now (just got to 85 last night and got two pvp pieces of gear), and want to see how they do. The one thing I will say is, they can tank pretty good while doing good dps with a deep Feral Talent build, allowing them to tank pretty effectively in bear and dps pretty effectively in cat. (Would say around 90 - 95% of theoretical max from talent choices). Honestly, what it is, is the options they have available to them that makes them such a bear (no pun intended) to deal with. They can with a quick shift tailor their fighting style to the situation.

I'll come back in about a week or two to post my thoughts on them again after I have full PvP gear.

Oh, btw, before you do nerf Ferals, nerf Rogues and nerf Mages.. but don't kid yourselves thinking you are weak, or balanced right now... you ARE strong.. possibly a little overly strong

[NightZero88]

Warriors have magic effects? Oh I didn't know that, thanks for the info!

Perhaps you should read more clearly and look at the post I was quoting. I said a team with a dispeller would dispel a rogue, DK, warrior, all exactly the same as they would dispel a feral. A dispeller will dispel regardless of what class they are dispelling. Good try at being a dick though.

Also, you will find much more classes with magic dispels rather than disease/poison dispels, which proves that Mages are more prone to being dispelled.
Ferals only suffer from offensive dispels, which is available to Priests, mages, shamans, warlocks (15 sec cd lol, doesn't really count...) and hunters (for 20 focus). Seeing as in most cases offensive dispelling is much more penalizing than defensive dispelling (available for Priests, Warlocks on 6 sec cd, Druids, Shamans and Paladins), Frost mages are more prone to dispels than Ferals. Your argument is thus invalid.

Offensive dispel: priest, mage, shamans, warlocks, hunters, prot warrior.
Defensive dispels on magical effect: Resto druid, holy priest, disc priest, holy pally, resto shammy, warlock(6 sec cd lol, doesn't really count...)
Your arguement is invalid. Mages are no more prone to be dispeled than ferals.

EDIT: According to this post: http://www.wowpedia.org/Dispel there are more offensive dispels than defensive dispels on magic.

Thanks for the laugh though.

Yes thank you. You have made me laugh with your idiocy.

If this weren't fun I think I would've stopped posting a long time ago. It really isn't worth arguing with you pro-ferals when you dismiss so many arguments.

If it weren't so much fun proving how wrong you are I would've stopped posting a long time ago. It really isn't worth arguing with you QQ-ferals-are-OP when you dismiss so many arguments.

[pikachu]

The druidekazes are defending themself as hell in here. Too much whine will end up in nerf. Just take it and take it hard when it happens! /gloat

[Wolfdragon]

Actually, the nerf isn't gonna happen, the qq here is meaningless the forums aren't plagued with threads similar to this and there is no real reason to nerf feral- We are forced to defend ourselves against uneducated people who are apparently irritated by ferals.
Also that silly nerf you talk about, we took it back in 4.0.6. when we became ridiculously underpowered up untill 4.1 when dash/SR broke roots- we only got slightly better with 2 rootbreakers though. Please don't provoke me, I eat too much infractions because of posts such as yours.

[syn1k]

If blizzard can nerf fury mastery then im sure blizzard can nerf the other masteries but honestly i think feral mastery is fine where it is.

yeah 14k bleed ticks on full res targets are balanced

[thisnamesucks]

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is that ferals can also remove curses. Being immune to hex and being able to remove hex whenever basically removes that cc from the equation, or at least greatly reduces it. No other class can say that about any cc.

Plus, whether you think ferals are more vulnerable to roots or not, ferals can DO THINGS when rooted. Rets and dks can too, but rets generally dont need to worry about roots. If your stuck in a full nova, you can hardcast a cyclone, entangling root, throw a minor heal or two, remove lock curses (not gamebreaking but it forces the lock to use a gcd to reapply them), throw moonfire/IS to cover dispels. Warrior and rogues who are stuck in a root have nothing to do besides throw their ranged weapon.

[Raxingar]

As someone who has both a rogue and feral, I would say feral is not nearly as OP as people make them out to be. They have some negatives as well as the positives. The only thing I would say is OP right now is the Bear form survivability, but that wont be nearly as bad in MoP cause they are separating Bear Tanks and Cat DPS specs. Right now they just have the best of both worlds, come MoP cats will be a lot squishier.

[Nyaldee]

Oh wait, I forgot to say your partners have trinkets and you have defencive cooldowns for that 100-0 situation, as it can't happen without berserk+rapid fire, still going on about other classes that undeniably have better slows and defencives as strong as feral ones with the argument they need buffs or are nothing compared to feral? If I could have 1/2 of the cc immunity a dk did, I'd gladly give him my bearform, but nop, that's impossible, so go figure. I don't feel like arguing with a bias person who has no idea what necrotic strike does as opposed to actual dmg, just wow, you can't be that desperate.

Now you're stating that DK's have it better then ferals? How low can you fall? You're most retarded poster in this thread providing false facts, changing flow of discussion in every post, never countering arguments. Done with you kid.

P.S. Whille you're at traiding abilities with DK's give them your polymorph immunity. They won't mind at all.

---------- Post added 2012-02-15 at 08:05 AM ----------

As someone who has both a rogue and feral, I would say feral is not nearly as OP as people make them out to be. They have some negatives as well as the positives. The only thing I would say is OP right now is the Bear form survivability, but that wont be nearly as bad in MoP cause they are separating Bear Tanks and Cat DPS specs. Right now they just have the best of both worlds, come MoP cats will be a lot squishier.

That's the wholle point of this thread - retarded amount of survivability combined with rest feral tools. In MoP that's changing, that means Blizzard acknowledge it being a problem. Meanwhille we still have ferals denying serious flaws in current feral spec design. And yes compared to rogue feral isn't that OP, but that's a different story and requires it's own treatment.

[Phoenexis]

Perhaps you should read more clearly and look at the post I was quoting. I said a team with a dispeller would dispel a rogue, DK, warrior, all exactly the same as they would dispel a feral. A dispeller will dispel regardless of what class they are dispelling. Good try at being a dick though.



Offensive dispel: priest, mage, shamans, warlocks, hunters, prot warrior.
Defensive dispels on magical effect: Resto druid, holy priest, disc priest, holy pally, resto shammy, warlock(6 sec cd lol, doesn't really count...)
Your arguement is invalid. Mages are no more prone to be dispeled than ferals.

EDIT: According to this post: http://www.wowpedia.org/Dispel there are more offensive dispels than defensive dispels on magic.



Yes thank you. You have made me laugh with your idiocy.




If it weren't so much fun proving how wrong you are I would've stopped posting a long time ago. It really isn't worth arguing with you QQ-ferals-are-OP when you dismiss so many arguments.

Last time I checked, 6 seconds cd was way much better than 15 seconds. Also, no, a competent dispeller wouldn't dispel a warrior the same way they would dispel a mage, that just doesn't make sense. You're going to dispel the mage way much more. So basically yes, what you're saying is bullshit.

Unlike you, I've taken the time to reply to most of the arguments pro-feral. You just go on listing how not having immunity makes you shit.
And again, lol at your argument about dispelling. Although I must admit I falsely interpreted your post, which nevertheless doesn't hold up.

Also, you don't judge the availability of dispels based on how many specs have it, you base it on its cost and the abundance of most represented classes that have them.

[NightZero88]

yeah 14k bleed ticks on full res targets are balanced

I know my bleeds don't hit anywhere near that hard against high res targets. But in that same vein, what about 40k icebolts from mages, or 40k ambushes from rogues, or any of the other crazy numbers from ANY class. You're acting like hard hitting attacks are unique to ferals. Don't forget to GET those 14k crits you need to apply debuffs to the target, build up combo points and then use a finisher. I'll note that no other class requires that ramp-up time for that sort of attack.

One thing I haven't seen anyone mention is that ferals can also remove curses. Being immune to hex and being able to remove hex whenever basically removes that cc from the equation, or at least greatly reduces it. No other class can say that about any cc.

Plus, whether you think ferals are more vulnerable to roots or not, ferals can DO THINGS when rooted. Rets and dks can too, but rets generally dont need to worry about roots. If your stuck in a full nova, you can hardcast a cyclone, entangling root, throw a minor heal or two, remove lock curses (not gamebreaking but it forces the lock to use a gcd to reapply them), throw moonfire/IS to cover dispels. Warrior and rogues who are stuck in a root have nothing to do besides throw their ranged weapon.

First, lots of classes can do that. Should we take away the locks pet since it can remove magic from anyone including it's master while it's master is CC'd? Should we remove dispel from priests because they can dispel TWO affects and not just one?

Second, if you are sitting in a nova from a mage and you think you'd be stupid enough to hard-cast a cyclone, a 1.5 second cast when you've already shown there is a mage there you are an idiot. That's a 100% chance for a lockout and you waste even more time. Or, you juke the cast but again, you're not accomplishing much. Also, toss a heal? That's funny, you realize feral heals are complete shit right? A rogues recup heals for far more than a druid will ever heal even with all HoTs rolling.

Last time I checked, 6 seconds cd was way much better than 15 seconds. Also, no, a competent dispeller wouldn't dispel a warrior the same way they would dispel a mage, that just doesn't make sense. You're going to dispel the mage way much more. So basically yes, what you're saying is bullshit.

I can't tell if you're trolling or if you really are this bad. You're saying they would dispel the ranged class more than the melee class? You realize how dumb that is? Ranged class afford to sit in roots and still do damage. A melee can't. Why the hell would you dispel the ranged? You have got to be trolling.

Unlike you, I've taken the time to reply to most of the arguments pro-feral. You just go on listing how not having immunity makes you shit.
And again, lol at your argument about dispelling. Although I must admit I falsely interpreted your post, which nevertheless doesn't hold up.

First of all, I've responded in multiple threads as have others showing you plenty of reasons why what you say is OP is not. There are tons of ways to get around ALL feral abilities just like there are with every class.

Also, you don't judge the availability of dispels based on how many specs have it, you base it on its cost and the abundance of most represented classes that have them.

What, you mean I shouldn't list dispels like you did first? You said, mages are more prone to dispels than ferals because there are more defensive dispels than offensive and YOU LISTED THEM. But when I list them it's suddenly wrong? Is it because I proved that you were wrong? That there are in fact more offensive dispels of magic than defensive so now you're changing your arguement? Go troll elsewhere.

[Himora]

Lol people are actually trying to argue that Ferals & Rogues arent incredibly OP at the moment? bwahahah!!!!!!
so many in denial.

[NightZero88]

Lol people are actually trying to argue that Ferals & Rogues arent incredibly OP at the moment? bwahahah!!!!!!
so many in denial.

I don't think anyone is arguing that rogues aren't OP. We are arguing that ferals are not incredibly OP because they aren't. They are strong when you're in the 1600-2200 bracket but they are not OMGOP at glad level which is all that matters. Rogues, locks, shammys, mages all trump them in terms of OPness so go bitch about something that is actually a problem like the classes that have been good for EVERY seasons instead of one that was OP for half a season and now reasonable for 2 after having been God awful for all the others.

[Itisamuh]

I don't think anyone is arguing that rogues aren't OP. We are arguing that ferals are not incredibly OP because they aren't. They are strong when you're in the 1600-2200 bracket but they are not OMGOP at glad level which is all that matters. Rogues, locks, shammys, mages all trump them in terms of OPness so go bitch about something that is actually a problem like the classes that have been good for EVERY seasons instead of one that was OP for half a season and now reasonable for 2 after having been God awful for all the others.

Wrong, I'm arguing against rogues being OP. They aren't bad but they aren't OP. Warlocks aren't OP either, that's a joke. They're actually one of the weakest classes. People should base opinions off actual gameplay, not arena statistics. Ferals are more OP than any DPS except frost mages.