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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
    those are merely examples

    im concerned that MMO players are so used to being pigeon holed into doing only one thing all the time they will not use things like weapon swapping to it full potential

    in addition people will be reluctant to switch away from "their build" to accommodate the needs of the group and the game isnt rigid enough to screen those players out ith "lf support" chat spams since the game doesnt have full time roles like that
    Your missing the fact that their is no such thing as a build that lacks support/damage/control thats one reason your weapon skills are chosen for you, The only thing I could see being a problem is that their will be players that only do one thing, for example an elementlist that refuses to use any other attunement but water. For these players you let them know that it's better to use all your skills instead of only using water, if they refuse to listen the group can decide to kick him or not

    Arenanet has already stated that build setup isn't as make or break as understanding how/when to use the skills a player brings in. So I'm guessing if 5 dagger thieves are 5 good dagger thieves they should be able to get pretty far (guess I'm gonna have to talk guildys into trying this now :P)
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  2. #22
    Warchief Maarius's Avatar
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    @OP: there is a official answer to your misconception:

    <Wobbley> One of the greatest changes Guild Wars 2 promises to bring to MMOs is to break the holy trinity of group roles. Would you dare say that this is true for any class/spec combination, or does it contain some modifications? An example would be; could 5 skilled Guardians using the same weapon and traits do a dungeon?

    <[ANet]JonathanSharp> -Absolutely, they could do it with the same weapons and traits. If you changed out your weapons and traits, you'd have more diversity, and would make it easier on yourself.

  3. #23
    I understand the concern and I can see some people having difficulty wrapping their head around the concept. What I'm hoping is that Anet will include enough ways to teach players the importance of having/using utility/support abilities and proper group mechanics by the time they get to the first dungeon, and use the early ones as a way to familiarize players with them so that when they are running more challenging content later, they are comfortable with it.

    It's one of the things that is an unknown now and really reliant on the community...and sadly I share your pessimism about the competency of players in general -_-

  4. #24
    Doubtful it'd be a concern outside of guilds or pre-mades. You'd just kick people who are bad at the game, no?

  5. #25
    Ok, quick recap (my prediction/opinion). Any combination of 5 professions/weapons will be able to finish story mode dungeon as long as people are paying attention, but this is not entirely true for explorer mode dungeons. There are few reasons, first each exp.m. dungeon will have different "theme" - that means not only different art style, but also approach to boss mechanics. So while five (very skilled) warriors (with different weapon sets) might be able to beat exp.m. dungeon A, they will fail miserably in dungeon B.

    Second thing is that GW2 will teach us to adapt. Instead of running around with the same build/weapons (like in WoW) you will be required to switch around pretty often. If you do that, you will be rewarded by successfully finishing DE/dungeon or encounter in WvW. So after some time, you will take joy in ability to contribute in any way possible.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Creepjack View Post
    Ok, quick recap (my prediction/opinion). Any combination of 5 professions/weapons will be able to finish story mode dungeon as long as people are paying attention, but this is not entirely true for explorer mode dungeons. There are few reasons, first each exp.m. dungeon will have different "theme" - that means not only different art style, but also approach to boss mechanics. So while five (very skilled) warriors (with different weapon sets) might be able to beat exp.m. dungeon A, they will fail miserably in dungeon B
    Anet haven't made this distinction. A group of 5 of the same professions should be able to clear any 5 man...that's what they said.

  7. #27
    bring the player, not the spec, and that is all. this thread really makes me sad.
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  8. #28
    Brewmaster Neglesh's Avatar
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    Unfortunately I'll end up 'tanking' dungeons for a while on my Guardian/Warrior.

    Oh well, I tanked on WoW for 4 years, a little longer won't hurt :P

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelbanes View Post
    Anet haven't made this distinction. A group of 5 of the same professions should be able to clear any 5 man...that's what they said.
    To be honest, I only remember them saying this regarding to story mode. I might be wrong thus I used "prediction/opinion".

    Anyway, one thing is sure. Explorer mode dungeons will be hard and teams composed of 5 identical profs will have much harder time than better balanced party. Also, 5 warriors may be much more easier to pull off than 5 thiefs for example (at least in this moment, we don't know anything yet about that "support thief" Anet was talking about).

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Neglesh View Post
    Unfortunately I'll end up 'tanking' dungeons for a while on my Guardian/Warrior.

    Oh well, I tanked on WoW for 4 years, a little longer won't hurt :P
    Except that that having one person 'tank' dungeons isn't a really viable strategy from what I've read from media reactions to the game.

  11. #31
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Except that that having one person 'tank' dungeons isn't a really viable strategy from what I've read from media reactions to the game.
    The devs also said anyone that tries to tank will learn very fast that you can't (ie splat).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Creepjack View Post
    Anyway, one thing is sure. Explorer mode dungeons will be hard and teams composed of 5 identical profs will have much harder time than better balanced party. Also, 5 warriors may be much more easier to pull off than 5 thiefs for example (at least in this moment, we don't know anything yet about that "support thief" Anet was talking about).
    Aye Know you said it was opinion
    It just shouldn't be possible for GW2 to be "unbalanced." There's really no difference between 5 warrs and 5 thiefs...they all have support skills.

    Remember, the Guardian....who a lot of ppl will come into GW2 thinking is basically a tank....has one of the lowest HPs of any class.

    This kind of role-based thinking is just something we have to unlearn. Yoda style

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
    maybe my faith in humanity is just shot, sorry i brought the issue up
    No, I don't dobt that some people may be reluctant to change their playstyle they are good at; it's perfectly possible that a warrior who's good at melee won't be as good with a bow or rifle. Even when changing traits and weapons is easy to do, some will be more comfortable pplaying some of them. That's natural.

    However I don't feel (just an opinion) that it will be so much of a common problem that gameplay wil be compromised. First, if running some dungeon requires some special build, like ranged mobility or whatever, there will be 5 people who can do that. If 3 players on you all warrior group say they'd prefer not to swith to their bow or rifle, there's still 2 who will.

    Second, it's my impression, purely by playing WoW, that some people are reluctant to change their roles in the first place because either don't want to compromise the group's success or have a competitive nature and don't want to compromise their personal performance. Having less emphasis on a quick dungeon run in search of the daily gear token and a combat system where DPS and rotations are much less prominent, perhaps we'll see less of that in GW2.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelbanes View Post
    Aye Know you said it was opinion
    It just shouldn't be possible for GW2 to be "unbalanced." There's really no difference between 5 warrs and 5 thiefs...they all have support skills.

    Remember, the Guardian....who a lot of ppl will come into GW2 thinking is basically a tank....has one of the lowest HPs of any class.

    This kind of role-based thinking is just something we have to unlearn. Yoda style
    Hmm.. I think I'm no expressing myself properly or clear. Sorry, English is not my native language so misunderstandings are bound to happen.

    I fully understand the concepts behind GW2, I may not be as post intensive as Mif, but I did went through every info source I could. I'm also already working on a few serious projects regarding GW2's pvp. So yeah, my money kinda rides on this game so I really need it to be as good as possible =].

    Let me try this one more time ;]. Let's imagine perfect balance (mathematically impossible, but just for the sake of argument) through all professions. So every class is a 100% of another. Looking at the weapon and utility skills we know to date (I'm not counting traits as they are being reworked) I would describe classes like this (overall potential, not by one particular weapon set):

    Warrior: control 20%, support 30%, damage 30%, mobility 20%
    Thief: control 15%, support 5%, damage 50%, mobility 30%
    Guardian: control 10%, support 50%, damage 20%, mobility 20%

    This is just a visualisation, example and not an accurate data sheet, but I hope you get the picture (and yes, we could add much more variables like survivability etc). Of course, by simply changing a weapon set/utility skills one prof can "turn by 180 degrees" from support to damage etc. Still numbers just shift around but overall every prof stays at 100% potential.

    So knowing this, it's easy to tell that some encounters will be easier/harder with different classes. It reaches even beyond of party consisted of same professions, it's just how maths works. It is really impossible to create a boss encounter with the same difficulty across all of the possible prof/wpn/utility combinations.

    The secret is to design a boss fight in a way that it can be beaten in few possible ways. Like a party consisted with strong support/survivability profs may take its time to kill it and follow some fight mechanic cause of the defensive cooldowns, but team with mostly more fragile profs will have choose to just burn him down before he kills everyone. Different parties, different approaches, but both with great chances of success. Now, despite all of the Anet efforts, math is a b!tch and there will be always "an easier way".
    Last edited by Creepjack; 2012-01-18 at 08:29 AM.

  15. #35
    Fluffy Kitten Bloodhunter's Avatar
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    I understand what's being said here though, I can see people being forced to use a combination they aren't comfortable using, some weapon sets may adapt better than others, that's why switching sets is great, however if I'm able to finish a dungeon with 5 rangers all using an Axe and Warhorn I'm good with that. I'd never force players to switch to something they don't want to switch, giving advice on the other hand is never a bad thing.

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  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Creepjack View Post
    Hmm.. I think I'm no expressing myself properly or clear. Sorry, English is not my native language so misunderstandings are bound to happen.

    I fully understand the concepts behind GW2, I may not be as post intensive as Mif, but I did went through every info source I could. I'm also already working on a few serious projects regarding GW2's pvp. So yeah, my money kinda rides on this game so I really need it to be as good as possible =].

    Let me try this one more time ;]. Let's imagine perfect balance (mathematically impossible, but just for the sake of argument) through all professions. So every class is a 100% of another. Looking at the weapon and utility skills we know to date (I'm not counting traits as they are being reworked) I would describe classes like this (overall potential, not by one particular weapon set):

    Warrior: control 20%, support 30%, damage 30%, mobility 20%
    Thief: control 15%, support 5%, damage 50%, mobility 30%
    Guardian: control 10%, support 50%, damage 20%, mobility 20%

    This is just a visualisation, example and not an accurate data sheet, but I hope you get the picture (and yes, we could add much more variables like survivability etc). Of course, by simply changing a weapon set/utility skills one prof can "turn by 180 degrees" from support to damage etc. Still numbers just shift around but overall every prof stays at 100% potential.

    So knowing this, it's easy to tell that some encounters will be easier/harder with different classes. It reaches even beyond of party consisted of same professions, it's just how maths works. It is really impossible to create a boss encounter with the same difficulty across all of the possible prof/wpn/utility combinations.

    The secret is to design a boss fight in a way that it can be beaten in few possible ways. Like a party consisted with strong support/survivability profs may take its time to kill it and follow some fight mechanic cause of the defensive cooldowns, but team with mostly more fragile profs will have choose to just burn him down before he kills everyone. Different parties, different approaches, but both with great chances of success. Now, despite all of the Anet efforts, math is a b!tch and there will be always "an easier way".
    different team Comps are going to have an easier/harder time depending on their comp
    sry I don't see the problem
    Last edited by SPeedy26; 2012-01-18 at 08:36 AM.
    I haven't enjoyed myself this much since the sacking of Coruscant!
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  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Creepjack View Post
    snip
    Sorry if I implied you didn't know what you're talking about
    Going to be completely honest with you. My knowledge of the finer details of GW2 is simply not sufficient to get into that level of a detailed discussion on it
    I'm more an a general overview enthuast tbh

    I actually didn't know that profs were balanced how you say. I thought every prof has basically equal scope for all areas (support, damage etc) through skills, weapons and traits...
    If that's not the case my premise is broken. This makes me a sad asura...

    It also make me question Anet's idea of "play what's fun for u," if what you say is true. This also makes me a sad asura...

  18. #38
    Mechagnome Fernling306's Avatar
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    Sorry, but isnt being able to play the game with 5 of the same class that is using the same weapon just as well as any group comp can kinda what Anet is going for?

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Glytch View Post
    maybe my faith in humanity is just shot, sorry i brought the issue up
    you brought nothing up as it can't even be an issue for now.

    the game isn't even in open beta stage and no one except devs and the b-testers can actually tell whether it will work or not.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Fernling306 View Post
    Sorry, but isnt being able to play the game with 5 of the same class that is using the same weapon just as well as any group comp can kinda what Anet is going for?
    That's what I thought...which is why I'm a confused asura.......

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