So about these "skill sets"

[Slowpoke is a Gamer]

I was examining a character I'd potentially make if I chose to pick up ToR (Miraluka Sage if you're wondering) and I noticed something about skill sets. They remind me a lot of how talents worked pre-Cata in WoW. Where you have points that you put into "+10% damage and an effect" slots.

Is this really how the system works in-game? And if so does it suffer the same flaw of WoW talents, that being "cookie cutter builds"?


Also, might I say I never expected to be posting a thread asking for information about ToR.

[Nyanmaru]

Yes, it's just like pre-cata in WoW. And of course there's cookie cutter builds, as there will always be one that is "best".

[Glorious Leader]

The nice thing with it being pre cata wow is that you can still make hybrid builds. current theory crafting is kinda limited atm so its a bit open in the air as to what the best build is. Cookie cutter builds will basically always exist in games. Either you will min max them or copy them from someone whos done the raids ahead of time and knows whats best. This applies to MoP as well I might add. If you interested in some of the available theory crafting sithwarrior.com has some min maxed stuff already.

[mickybrighteyes]

the same flaw of WoW talents, that being "cookie cutter builds"

"cookie cutter" isn't a flaw in the design as much as it's a flaw in the player's way of thinking.

If there are "choices" within a defined rule set there will be a superior option that is proven mathematically. There will be cookie cutter builds after enough people get together and compare their notes on what's going on in your average fights. Right now it's not as noticeable because we can't easily tell what's doing what and when, and most people simply might be wrong in their own estimations about what every class is capable of.

[Grable]

What's wrong with cookie cutters, really?

[Elim Garak]

What's wrong with cookie cutters, really?

They cut cookies.

[kosuko]

What's wrong with cookie cutters, really?

If everyone specs the same, why would you even introduce talent trees. Might aswell just give out the same 41 talents whenever you select your main spec.

[Grable]

If everyone specs the same, why would you even introduce talent trees. Might aswell just give out the same 41 talents whenever you select your main spec.

Not everyone is about min-maxing you know.

[AVPaul]

If everyone specs the same, why would you even introduce talent trees. Might aswell just give out the same 41 talents whenever you select your main spec.

If every one jumps in a well, will you decide to jump too? Or if drugs is being sold anyway why shouldn't goverment legalize them and sell by themselves? Don't you think that this "do like the most players do" design is flawed? Don't you think that MMO means some amount of freedom including the freedom to make mistakes and so being unique. MMOs is like real life - you are unique, make choices and you may mistake. If you even can't mistake then it's not MMO anymore - it's arcade shootter/fighting/etc.

[Fannyd]

I was examining a character I'd potentially make if I chose to pick up ToR (Miraluka Sage if you're wondering) and I noticed something about skill sets. They remind me a lot of how talents worked pre-Cata in WoW. Where you have points that you put into "+10% damage and an effect" slots.

Is this really how the system works in-game? And if so does it suffer the same flaw of WoW talents, that being "cookie cutter builds"?


Also, might I say I never expected to be posting a thread asking for information about ToR.

You see, I was always sceptical when the WoW dev team decided to re-jig the talent trees on the Cata release. I mean, something needed to be done due to the shear about of points that we'd all have by level 85/90 under the old system - it was the reasoning that they gave that didn't make much sense to me.

If you have a certain amount of points to spend in a talent tree then, by definition, there will be "cookie cutter" builds. There is always an optimal way of doing things. I just don't understand the fascination of the WoW dev team to try and fight that.

Wouldn't it have made more sense for them to address other issues?

[Glorious Leader]

You see, I was always sceptical when the WoW dev team decided to re-jig the talent trees. I mean, something needed to be done due to the shear about of points that we'd all have by level 85/90 under the old system - it was the reasoning that they gave that didn't make much sense to me.

If you have a certain amount of points to spend in a talent tree then, by definition, there will be "cookie cutter" builds. There is always an optimal way of doing things. I just don't understand the fascination of the WoW dev team to completely overhaul the system with each x-pac.

It's a basic misunderstanding of human psychology in some vein attempt to reach a goal called "fun". I'm being perfectly serious here. They think that they can achieve "fun" in the talent design by effectively making it so that the choice you have is really rather asanine and pointless. Their will still be cookie cutter builds only now it just utility builds. You'll still copy what the elitist jerks or the dream paragon does. Simply because people like to emulate success. Success is fun and people will copy others who have been successful.

Honestly and this is the one thing I can say that really puts the SWTOR talent system ahead of warcraft. You can still hybrid build. Will people do that? Sure why not? It's not like theirs a combat log available that can actually prove all the theory crafting that goes on. Play around with specs and enjoy what you come up with.

[gualdhar]

Just like WoW, there are some skills that are pretty much required, and some you can afford to move around. It depends on the tree, but most seem to have 5 points you can fiddle with without lowering your dps by a huge amount. You can put these in PvP/solo-oriented talents, or move them into more useful trees.

I've seen a fair number of people soloing with hybrid tank/dps or healer/dps trees too. It's not enough to let you tank or heal an Op or a HM FP, but enough to make leveling a bit easier.

[shadowkras]

Cookies are not meant to be cut.

[herpecin]

there are specs that you can easily see that will perform better, if you have a good idea about how your rotation should work, but as there is no combat log there is no concrete way to say one spec is better then another(within reason)

[Deleted]

Yes they are copies of wow talents

http://i.imgur.com/kET1L.jpg

Fun fact: Every single talent and ability of my class (sorcerer) is a copy of wow talents. No exeption.

I realize some, or even many spells need to be in all MMO's but come on.........

Am i naive for expecting atleast 1-3 new spells when switching from one mage class to another MMO mage class?

[Glorious Leader]

Yes they are copies of wow talents

http://i.imgur.com/kET1L.jpg

Fun fact: Every single talent and ability of my class (sorcerer) is a copy of wow talents. No exeption.

I realize some, or even many spells need to be in all MMO's but come on.........

Am i naive for expecting atleast 1-3 new spells when switching from one mage class to another MMO mage class?

I'm curious what is force surge a copy cat of?

[gualdhar]

Yes they are copies of wow talents

http://i.imgur.com/kET1L.jpg

Fun fact: Every single talent and ability of my class (sorcerer) is a copy of wow talents. No exeption.

I realize some, or even many spells need to be in all MMO's but come on.........

Am i naive for expecting atleast 1-3 new spells when switching from one mage class to another MMO mage class?

You honestly think all of WoW's abilities are original? Have you played any MMOs before WoW?

No MMO has been that original since MUDs. Hell, even AD&D had abilities that increased an enemy's AC (which, in the days of THAC0, meant they were easier to hit)

[Deleted]

Yes they are copies of wow talents

http://i.imgur.com/kET1L.jpg

Fun fact: Every single talent and ability of my class (sorcerer) is a copy of wow talents. No exeption.

I dont even play SWTOR anymore but some of these are really clutching at straws, i can see the similarities on intercede,intimidating roar and sundering assault but comparing sweeping slash and smash to cleave/thunderclap? It's just an aoe attack.

[Remilia]

Honestly and this is the one thing I can say that really puts the SWTOR talent system ahead of warcraft. You can still hybrid build. Will people do that? Sure why not? It's not like theirs a combat log available that can actually prove all the theory crafting that goes on. Play around with specs and enjoy what you come up with.

Personally I just think that without the combat log, people are more free to just play what works, and if it works, just go with it. Rather not have the need to just search up a site, and just go 'oh, this is what I should do, okay lets go with that' instead of actually play around, test it out in a FP, or an OP, not like you really achieve anything by following someone else.

Cookies are not meant to be cut.

They're meant to be baked... then eaten... *drools*

[Remilia]

I dont even play SWTOR anymore but some of these are really clutching at straws, i can see the similarities on intercede,intimidating roar and sundering assault but comparing sweeping slash and smash to cleave/thunderclap? It's just an aoe attack.

Essentially if you want to look at defensive CDs, you're not going to have anything new. You're going to have an AoE hit, you're going to have a cleave hit (look at like every single tank class), you only have a few defensive CD option, an escape, a reducer, an avoidance, or an emergency health bonus / heal. Comparing something that can't be avoided is as you said grasping at straws.