So about these "skill sets"

[Deleted]

Thats weeks ago, trend continues after that.

[Glorious Leader]

Thats weeks ago, trend continues after that.

Let's just go ahead and squash this useless conversation right now. The guy who runs a database using the exact same data and measurements as TORSTATUS put up a post on the official forums

Yet again I want to post my clarification on graphics;

quick info on this; (as I'm the developer of that tool), the generated charts DOES NOT represent user subscriptions.

Instead the tool reads http://www.swtor.com/server-status and generate charts for server-loads based on given population field on the page.

So basically a total value of 800 (in y axis) for a total of 215 server means = 800 / 215 = 3.7 = ~ Heavy population in average.

Where as a value of 600 (in y axis) for a total of 215 server means = 800 / 215 = 2.7 = Standard population.
0 -> offline
1 - 2 -> light
2 - 3-> standard
3 - 4 -> heavy
4 - 5 -> very heavy
5+ -> full

So yet again, the game did not lost active subscribers last two weeks but instead average population of servers dropped down - which is a good thing (meaning less queues if any).

In MMO launches, heavy populations are always expected and over time they normalize - which is already the case for SWTOR -- and those charts actually represent that.

Can anybody with a post in first page of the thread can paste this explanation? So people can get an understanding of the charts before commenting on the OP's erroneous interpretation of them.

Here is an FAQ on the tool as well! http://www.swtorarena.com/topic/210-...tics-tool-faq/

Educate yourself.

[gualdhar]

Not to mention server population starts to go down around January 3, which is when most people are back at work from winter vacation and have regular time commitments, thus less playtime overall. That could also explain lower server pops than at launch.

[Rakoth]

This is to get the thread back on track:

OP. These trees are EXACTLY the same style as the WoW pre-cata trees.

There are many reasons blizzard is leaving them behind and blizzard has argued those points already, so I won't do it again. Now, let me add my 2 cents.

You are allowed to have a hybrid build, you are allowed to play this game however you want. What you are not allowed to do is make me suffer, as a healer or tank, through your low DPS. If you have low DPS and you are in my guild, I will try and make you a better player, by working with you on how you can improve with rotation, gear and overall responsiveness and timing. If you want to play like that, you don't play with me, or mine. (At least with PUGs in WoW I can see why the DK is doing poor DPS, he was specced blood, in SWTOR I have had DPS characters do less damage then my healer)

What I expect from the ppl I play with is that they will do everything they can to help me and the 6 other players (or 14) kill that boss I am working on. If you are not pulling your weight, as I said I will try to help you, but why should I put up with your selfishness at wanting to be a special little snowflake.

I spend game time working on finishing a raid, flashpoint or otherwise. I will not waste my game time because you want to be a hybrid. I understand not having the time to read up on fights, or practice your rotation, but the easiest thing to do to increase your DPS is make sure you spec right.

This is why the talent trees are flawed, because they give the illusion of choice. You do not have a choice, you think you have a choice. MoP trees are slightly better in the fact that the choices you make (if designed properly) are actually almost purely utility and worth less then 1% of your DPS. But, as a raider, I am expected to put the good of the raid ahead of me, and I expect ALL my raiders to do that. This is why we have cookie cutter specs.

As an aside:
So far, Bioware has done very well with the specs. When talented properly, all three tree's of each class are competitive. This was something blizzard failed to do over and over with a spec getting lost (sub rogues before cata, frost mages even in Cata). I am very happy that I can play as any tank, healer or even DPS tree and still be competitive.

[Glorious Leader]

This is why the talent trees are flawed, because they give the illusion of choice. You do not have a choice, you think you have a choice. MoP trees are slightly better in the fact that the choices you make (if designed properly) are actually almost purely utility and worth less then 1% of your DPS. But, as a raider, I am expected to put the good of the raid ahead of me, and I expect ALL my raiders to do that. This is why we have cookie cutter specs.

Sooooo the solution to cookie cutter builds is to cut of the head so the body will die. The cure is worse than the disease imo. Making it so that talents are effectively just utility abilities is fucking BORING. When was the last time you had FUN with major and minor glyphs.. oh wait NEVER. Well that's what your talents are going to become. YAY look at that fist of justice or repentance...such a fun choice? You mean its boring as shit to pick CC talents.. well yea I agree. As for being an illusion of choice, the MoP talents are no better. You will still take whatever is suited best for whatever particular fight your on which for paladins means 99% of the raiding ones will take fist of justice. Unless of course the fight is a gimmick fight then we take repentance. Wonderfull freedom to choose... It is a glorified major glyph system and I'm disgusted by it. I would most definetly rather have SWTORs system even if its still min maxed. I can hybrid to my hearts content on weekends

[Rakoth]

Sooooo the solution to cookie cutter builds is to cut of the head so the buddy will die. The cure is worse than the disease imo. As for being an illusion of choice, the MoP talents are no better. You will still take whatever is suited best for whatever particular fight your on which for paladins means 99% of the raiding ones will take fist of justice. Unless of course the fight is a gimmick fight then we take repentance. Wonderfull freedom to choose... It is a glorified major glyph system and I'm disgusted by it. I would most definetly rather have SWTORs system even if its still min maxed. I can hybrid to my hearts content on weekends

I do not say that Blizzard is doing a good job with the system, and honestly, you mention 1 tier of choice among... 66. With ToR, you really have 4 choices per class: PvP spec, PvE tree 1, PvE tree 2, PvE tree 3.

It will be Blizzard's job to implement the system to make those choices interesting, and before release I am not going to comment on pre-Alpha numbers and mechanics, it's pointless. I hope they make a very good set of choices that will be more interesting then 99% of the time I take this, 1% I take this. But, they could fall flat on their faces.

I am not raging against the implementation, I feel BW has made great balance choices this early on, only combat logs and data can validate my feelings, but I think they have a done very well in that respect (The fact that I can choose any of the healing classes for "gameplay" rather then min-maxing is a great sign). I am raging against the system they chose, I am also quite happy that Blizzard is moving away from it. This was also why I was so interested in Rift, their talent tree implementation was unique, but alas the game didn't keep me.

Another thing I don't enjoy (and some would) is how little lvl 30 healing and lvl 50 healing is on my sage. Even my shadow's rotation felt clunky before I "unlocked" some magic talent. I prefered WoW's implementation in this regard, give you what makes your class unique at lvl 10 and you can start learning the proper way to use your spells. It took me 3-4 levels with Healing Trace to finally realize that it SHOULD be my go to spell for healing, not Deliverance, and mostly because my UI was optimized for deliverance healing and a 20 level habit was hard to break.

TLDR: This isn't a WoW vs TOR post, this is a pre-cata Talent Tree vs MoP Talent style thread. Honestly, I would be remiss if I said I didn't want something new and fresh for talents, but we will see what Gw2 does.

[Glorious Leader]

snip

I just don't see how its more FUN to pick a bland utility talent over a 3% increase to X Y or Z.

[Judge Malthred]

They cut cookies.

I think the obvious solution here is to make emo cookies that cut themselves, thereby getting rid of the need for cookie cutters all together.

[mickybrighteyes]

I just don't see how its more FUN to pick a bland utility talent over a 3% increase to X Y or Z.

That really depends on what the "bland utility" is, cause I personally don't see any fun derived from a <10% increase in dmg/healing/hp/duration

[Deleted]

The cookie cutter specs are obvious for many classes, especially for healers. You don't even need to read any websites telling you what to spec. On my Operative Medic I have like 2 talent points that I can move around without gimping my stats or utility for PVE.

[Ghul]

jup they pretty much copied an outdated system, i already said it many times: id rather have seen biowares attempt at talent trees than a simple 1:1 copy n paste from wow. they are just old and totaly 19th century. some revolution needs to happen with talent trees and blizzard has already started some experiments for mop and d3.
i just cant figure out why they copied that of all the things ~~
"hey lets copy this old and restricting system, where everyone looks like a loser when he doesnt skill x and y". who'd say yes to that? ~~

oh and if you didnt notice until now: the wookie guy belongs to the fanatics from star wars, he will defend it at any cost with any argument possible... so dont bother getting serious on him.

[Glorious Leader]

That really depends on what the "bland utility" is, cause I personally don't see any fun derived from a <10% increase in dmg/healing/hp/duration

Fist of justive vs Repentance is possibly the lamest choice in the universe.

---------- Post added 2012-01-18 at 07:23 PM ----------

oh and if you didnt notice until now: the wookie guy belongs to the fanatics from star wars, he will defend it at any cost with any argument possible... so dont bother getting serious on him.

I like to to think I'm fairly reasonable when I defend the game but I understand why you feel as you do. Ignorance is a fairly common condition among many people. Good luck to you though.

User received an infraction worth 5 points for flaming. We do not tolerate members that decide to ridicule one another.

- Cula

[Ghul]

Fist of justive vs Repentance is possibly the lamest choice in the universe.

---------- Post added 2012-01-18 at 07:23 PM ----------



I like to to think I'm fairly reasonable when I defend the game but I understand why you feel as you do. Ignorance is a fairly common condition among many people. Good luck to you though.

and you're going to realize that this logic works both ways when exactly? maybe that would help that arguing like you do is actually only leading into a dead end.

[conscript]

Closing this thread since it was completely derailed into WoW vs SWTOR nonsense. Yes SWTOR uses traditional talent trees (featured in a whole hell of a lot more games than WoW) and that will lead to "best" builds.