Turning off the "5% buff" is not an option...

[gb4200]

I also think it needs to be said, since I'm guilty of this as well, hardcore and casual are terms for how much time someone can commit to the game weekly/monthly/yearly. Often people assume if you are casual, you like everything easy, or if you are hardcore, you play at a higher level then most. This is not the case, you can be a 13 year old who puts in 8 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. Which I would consider a hardcore player due to time commitment, but in no way would he have the skills someone playing this game for 6 years that is 18 though only plays 12 hours a week.

[Honko]

My guild raids 6 hrs a week, and we are 1/8H, and i welcome this so that we can take H hagara down, as I hate this stupid fight.

[gb4200]

My guild raids 6 hrs a week, and we are 1/8H, and i welcome this so that we can take H hagara down, as I hate this stupid fight.

Since you can already experience the content in lower levels, what do you gain besides gear and achievements by completing heroic modes?

[Theendgamelv3]

So wait, what are you complaining about? That content is too easy? All you are saying here is turning off 5% isn't a option and I agree IF you are simply in the challenge of getting server firsts. HOWEVER, if you are gonna complain about something being easy (going by your first post there is nothing about difficulty) you and your guild are making it easy. You have a choice, go for server firsts and be competitive in racing for server firsts OR still have the challenge of not doing it with a buff. One is a challenge is speed and getting down before everyone else, the other is a challenge of difficulty. It is real sad that all this argument of "wow is too easy" that maybe 1 or 2 guilds probably finished heroic ICC 25 without the buff. This buff gives players choice, yea go ahead and finish faster so you can claim you are one top guilds. Then after that, take the challenge of doing it without the buff. I do honestly think that Blizzard should give a achievement of downing the raid without the buff.

[Buryit]

You people are really not getting it, do you?

It has very little to do with people feeling entitled, but even that philosophy is a line of thinking which should be equally respected as any other line of thinking.

The content is currently being kept artificially exclusive by the players. Go look at your trade-chats and tell me what you see when it comes to DS PuGs?
It's usually something along the line of "LFM DS ilvl 385 / 388 / 391+ required and [Destroyer's End] achievement too!". Which causes in turn there to be a much less % of players seeing the content than Blizzard wants.

There is:
A) The wall created by the community by blocking out people from seeing the content, with general too high PuG requirements.
B) The wall that raidguilds see when they are trying to progress through heroic-mode without demotivating their guild or seeing more of their raidingroster quit.
Both are statistics which are closely observed by Blizzard and why they artificially, ever since Vanilla, but more so since WotLK have been trying to gradually tweak and nerf the content so they can have the statistics where they want them to be.

"Because they pay for it and want it?" Has nothing to do with the community making an explicit demand for it, with the casuals groaning and moaning about it. Seriously look at these boards, it's not the casuals moaning and complaining, it never is. They don't complain and moan, they don't bother. They're just majorly vocal with their money and subscription cancelations instead if there is something in the game that they don't like or if the game no longer appeals to them.

And that is where you're all losing the argument. Not a billion complaint posts on a forum from a small part of the "raiders" are gonna be as loud and hurtful as just a part of the bigger casual population quietly unsubscribing.

And do you know what the painful irony behind all this is? The more people that stop subscribing, the more sensitive Blizzard will become to pleasing the bigger part of their playerbase, even if that bigger part of the playerbase does not make a vocal / moaning / complaining demand about something on the forums. Blizzard is not gonna keep content hard so 99% of their market has a potential on getting pissed off, bored, tired and quit playing just to keep the 1% happy. Please. Be realistic.

You know what only solution will be so Blizzard won't be nerfing normal or hardmode anymore? When all the guild start taking more different people to the raid-content so a higher % has cleared the content everytime they'd check the statistics. Never gonna happen, but it's the only thing you realistically can do in your positions.

The above makes more sense than anything I have read in the YEARS of reading anything to do with WoW, really and thanks for putting it into words.

[gb4200]

You people are really not getting it, do you?

It has very little to do with people feeling entitled, but even that philosophy is a line of thinking which should be equally respected as any other line of thinking.

The content is currently being kept artificially exclusive by the players. Go look at your trade-chats and tell me what you see when it comes to DS PuGs?
It's usually something along the line of "LFM DS ilvl 385 / 388 / 391+ required and [Destroyer's End] achievement too!". Which causes in turn there to be a much less % of players seeing the content than Blizzard wants.

There is:
A) The wall created by the community by blocking out people from seeing the content, with general too high PuG requirements.
B) The wall that raidguilds see when they are trying to progress through heroic-mode without demotivating their guild or seeing more of their raidingroster quit.
Both are statistics which are closely observed by Blizzard and why they artificially, ever since Vanilla, but more so since WotLK have been trying to gradually tweak and nerf the content so they can have the statistics where they want them to be.

"Because they pay for it and want it?" Has nothing to do with the community making an explicit demand for it, with the casuals groaning and moaning about it. Seriously look at these boards, it's not the casuals moaning and complaining, it never is. They don't complain and moan, they don't bother. They're just majorly vocal with their money and subscription cancelations instead if there is something in the game that they don't like or if the game no longer appeals to them.

And that is where you're all losing the argument. Not a billion complaint posts on a forum from a small part of the "raiders" are gonna be as loud and hurtful as just a part of the bigger casual population quietly unsubscribing.

And do you know what the painful irony behind all this is? The more people that stop subscribing, the more sensitive Blizzard will become to pleasing the bigger part of their playerbase, even if that bigger part of the playerbase does not make a vocal / moaning / complaining demand about something on the forums. Blizzard is not gonna keep content hard so 99% of their market has a potential on getting pissed off, bored, tired and quit playing just to keep the 1% happy. Please. Be realistic.

You know what only solution will be so Blizzard won't be nerfing normal or hardmode anymore? When all the guild start taking more different people to the raid-content so a higher % has cleared the content everytime they'd check the statistics. Never gonna happen, but it's the only thing you realistically can do in your positions.

I started playing wow when I was 12, and was able to find my way into a Naxx guild. TBC, which I think was WoW at it's finest, I was able to raid up to Kael until I went strictly PvP and was able to attain a 2k rating on my warrior. Woltk same thing I made it through I guess Naxx, Malygos, OS I can't remember was the only thing out til I quit before Ulduar came out and just never came back til Cata. Enough about me, on to my point, the game wasn't hard then and the instant gratification/easy accessibility to everything just ruins it for any decent player. I guess it's also a product of playing to long, but why would Blizzard sell out who made them.

[Deleted]

There is:
A) The wall created by the community by blocking out people from seeing the content, with general too high PuG requirements.
B) The wall that raidguilds see when they are trying to progress through heroic-mode without demotivating their guild or seeing more of their raidingroster quit.
Both are statistics which

A) No amount of nerfs will change this, it doesn't matter how much Blizzard nerf content people will still demand you overgear it with achievements.
B) Heroic Dragon Soul has been available for 7 weeks. SEVEN WEEKS. That's not even enough time for 1 week per boss.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

A) No amount of nerfs will change this, it doesn't matter how much Blizzard nerf content people will still demand you overgear it with achievements.
B) Heroic Dragon Soul has been available for 7 weeks. SEVEN WEEKS. That's not even enough time for 1 week per boss.

The amount of time heroic DS has been available doesn't really speak to much (by the way, there are still 2 weeks until the mere 5% nerf). Blizzard has stated that they are able to see how many people are working on bosses and they assess the frequency at which those bosses are being downed/whether people are giving up on their desire to raid. They then make the decision to nerf based on that information. Whether you actually believe Blizzard does this or not I suppose is a separate issue.

[artem123]

One petrol station sells gas 5% cheaper than the petrol station on the other side of the road, which one do you take?

Ofc this is going to change things..

that.. is a really bad thing to compare to.. alot...
more like ie a marathon, you can choose to do it normally, or they give everyone the option to skip 5% of that actual race.
on topic: actually i agree with you most people care, some boss's its an accomplishment to actually get that top 200 or that US, because of how many people play

[fearcazic]

Anyone who plays WoW to raid understands why you simply cannot turn off the 5% buff.

Yesterday a friend from an old server I played on messaged me screaming "WE KILLED YOR'SAHJ US 150!!" or something like that...

See, now to MMO, US 150th is nothing, who cares right? WRONG. US 150 for people who only raid 12-16 hours a week is a very big deal.. and continuing to try to improve that is an even bigger deal.

So, when 5% comes out, if this guild decides not to use it, they will drop to US 200, or US 250 lets say... so in this race (which only ends when the xpac ends), we have NO choice but to use the 5% buff to stay competitive.

Another thing is many servers dont have a server first deathwing yet... this is still up for grabs, and extremely important to many people. This 5% buff will make the difference in who gets it first.. you think the guild who is _ALMOST_ there is going to ignore it because it's the right thing to do?

Anyone who says "just turn off the buff" is ignorant and not a real raider (EDIT: In my opinion :P). Just because it doesn't matter to you, doesn't mean it doesn't matter to others. So the next time you say "Just turn the buff off", think to yourself "who am i kidding??" The race is still on, many servers haven't done it yet, and are still pushing their very best to do so...

Infracted. Declaring something to be an opinion and adding a smiley face to it doesn't change the fact that its non-constructive and insulting. - Wilderness

I'll be watching this thread, keep it constructive please. - Azshira.

US 150, US 250, or US 300 only matters to about 7,500 or so people out of millions. Plus, being US 10 or 20, or 50 is like winning the "no prize money" fantasy football league. I think only less than 100,000 people know who the top guilds in wow is.

I just pugged 7/8 DS normal and every boss we only had 1 wipe. Everyone in the pug was in guilds I have never heard of or seen. Most people don't even know who the top 3 guilds are on the server or who was server 1st to kill heroic rag. I have no idea who is the best on our server because they're gameplay don't affect me unlike EQ where top guilds can block lower guilds.

What Blizzard did is making the game more accessible to more people. The more they nerf the more PuGs will form and more people having fun on mains and alts.

[Labz]

If I were leading the raid I would keep the buff on the first time we are completing it (although it was released after most people killed Deathwing) and then turn it off every other time after that.

[Adam Jensen]

If you don't like it, turn it off.
If you do like it, turn it on.

No one really cares about your raid, except for you and your guild, just enjoy it as it comes.

I for one see it as a way to catch up seeing as how, due to a month and a half without raiding for various reasons has put me at 4/8 DS normal and two of those were last night . . . so yay, I get a chance to catch up.

And if my guild feels up for an extra challenge then we turn it off *shrug*

Then again, I've never been a hardcore "OMG MUST BE BETTER THAN EVERYONE ELSE" type.

Oh and "Not real raiders" sounds very much like "no true Scotsman"

[markdall]

What it means is that any PUG raid you do that isn't LFR is likely to have some jackass click the buff off when you didn't want it off. Just like in ICC. They need to restrict it to raid leaders only, and also to give it a toggle like heroic mode. (and who knows, maybe they will.)

[Derpyhooves]

I don't get this argument. If you haven't cleared 8/8H by now then you are not competing with people who did clear it without the buff. You are already behind, you lost whatever competition you thought there was.

So they bring in a nerf buff and the argument is that nobody is going to turn it off so you are forced to leave it on. Fine so now everyone who hasn't cleared 8/8H is still competing on the same level since everyone is using the buff right? You are still competing with the same people at the same level of difficulty, the competition is still the same for realm first or first person in your street or however fine you want to break it down to make yourself feel special.

[DetectiveJohnKimble]

I don't get this argument. If you haven't cleared 8/8H by now then you are not competing with people who did clear it without the buff. You are already behind, you lost whatever competition you thought there was.

So they bring in a nerf buff and the argument is that nobody is going to turn it off so you are forced to leave it on. Fine so now everyone who hasn't cleared 8/8H is still competing on the same level since everyone is using the buff right? You are still competing with the same people at the same level of difficulty, the competition is still the same for realm first or first person in your street or however fine you want to break it down to make yourself feel special.

Indeed. The competition for #1 not-so-good guild on your server is serious business.

[Derpyhooves]

Or is the "having to do effort"-part too bothersome?

Hey if these people put as much effort into raiding as they do into forum QQ maybe they would be heroic cleared pre nerf.

[Anowyn]

Unless you're going for server firsts, no one really cares that much about US 150, or US 250, or whatever number you want to talk about except you. Is it still an achievement? Yes. But no one goes, "omg, dude, that US 150 guild is so much better than that US 170 guild." I'm sorry, but that's just not really the case. If you were in like the top 10 that's probably a different story. Yes it may matter to you, but in that case what matters more to you more, your rank, or achieving kills without a nerf?

However, the buff (or I guess nerf in this case) is definitely 100% optional. You say no one will turn it off, and that may be true until they down every boss on heroic. But do keep in mind that Paragon received the world first Heroic Lich King 25 kill with the 5%, and yet they were still the first guild to go back and complete it without the 5% buff (and I think the only guild to ever do so prior to the release of Cataclysm). If the achievement of downing content without a nerf or buff mattered to you as much as you're hinting, you wouldn't care if you dropped to US 200, or US 250. However, considering RANK matters to you more, then why should you care if there's a 5% nerf if you are still able to down it before others? It's not like a 5% nerf suddenly makes your US 150 not actually US 150, you still beat the other guilds.

Paragon did not feel any less accomplished when they downed heroic LK 25 for their world first even though it was not done until the 5% buff kicked in. However, they did want the greater challenge and went back and did it without the buff after. Once your get your US ranks, you can always turn it off and go back for personal achievement.

Having said all of this, I do believe that a US 150 rank is still impressive, but it's nothing that's going to make me remember your guild's name or think any less of your guild if you got 157, or even 200 for that matter. However, the attitude you're displaying is much more likely to make me remember you, and not because of skill.

[microtonal]

IIs a game fun when everything is basically handed to you? This blue is saying that because this is a game there should be no challenge, but what about people who play games for a challenge?

No, that's not what Bashiok said. Not even close. Projecting your own paranoia, anxiety, and feelings of inadequacy onto someone else isn't just a logical fallacy, it's a psychological issue.

Also, whats the point of an mmo if a month after you reach max level you can complete all the endgame content in the game?

What's the point of implementing the content if you deliberately design it so that 95% of your players will never see it?

Blizzard learned from that mistake a long, long time ago. They've explained how and why they make these decisions over and over and fucking over again. Your inability and/or refusal to listen to and comprehend their argument is entirely your own fault, not theirs.

This will be where its at as they keep adding the 5% nerf, any person with a good enough grasp of their class mechanics will cake walk through endgame.

The people who are going to "cakewalk" through endgame in a way that actually means anything to anyone have already done it. And I suspect that it means something to considerably fewer people than you think it does.

There is a MUCH finer line between you and Joe Schmoe the LFR Hero than there is between you and the world-first guilds. Ever notice how world-first raiders never come to these boards to whine about nerfs? It's always the middle-of-the-road raiders throwing the temper-tantrums, and they're only doing it because they know they won't be able to maintain their delusion that they matter for very much longer.

All I really would like Blizzard to do is have a hard mode that stays hard, if 1 guild can kill it, in time all guilds can. This might seem redundant, but wtf is the point of nerfing a hard mode that is clearly possible to complete?

When you refuse to take advantage of an option, you don't get to claim that the option doesn't exist, because words mean things.

If you want "unchanged" content, stop being a child and turn the buff off. If you leave the buff on, you've lost the right to complain that the content is "changed", because at some point, you just have to grow up and take some responsibility for your own decisions.

[Yousend]

People don't seem to realize that people do indeed care whether a guild is still top 1k US/EU etc... Recruiting is always easier the higher you are. If people are starting to quit/etc... You will need to recruit. When you recruit, so you think people go "oh shit, these guys are hardcore, I'm going to join them because they don't use the nerf system!" or "well, this guy killed cleared everything, so I get free loot" vs "well, this guild is like halfway done with hardmodes, guess i better apply to these to get the feeling of progression!"..

Most people will app in a top-down fashion. They will look at how they evaluate themselves, so if they say "I'm a top player!" they'll app to a top guild, if that guild rejects them, they'll move down a little until they find a spot.

There's also the server first achievements and people who just want to clear the content. How many guilds used the option to turn off the ICC buff? Not many. Why? Because all that matters is getting more people in your roster when content gets old and you haven't cleared all of it.

It's not a "responsible" option to turn off the nerf system, unless you can guaranty that everyone in your raid will stick around and not care about anything other than killing it on "super hard mode".

[Seprest]

I don't raid hardcore anymore, but I would still rather have content just as hard as all other players. I think it would be rather hard to convince everyone in my semi-casual raids to want to turn off the buff now that it is there...pretty crappy, couldn't blizzard not cave in for once? I thought this was what LFR was for, so those who wanted to see content to be able to see it, and the other two difficulties were there to be DIFFICULT. So why bother nerfing, you outgear things eventually or find out who is bringing you down. Normal mode raiding has never been difficult for a casual group, in fact most of the time it is getting the raid together that is the hard part (LFR solved that for people that are too lazy to make some personal connections to a guild in a MULTIPLAYER game). Last time I got stuck on a normal mode boss was 25m LK, and we had 3 hm's downed with him still up due to the buff. It was pretty cheap for the ICC buff to roll out and let us eventually kill LK without having to put any real effort into redesigning our raid (it's a multiplayer game, you're supposed to have to correctly manage your raiders in order to win), and this debuff is just as sour. Keep 3 difficulties and leave out anything to make them easier, let people gear up... I mean...dragon soul JUST came out, I'm not in a guild that clears things in the first month, or second month, or third month...this barely gave many guilds a chance to experience content like other players who could simply play more already have, it is quite unfair!