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  1. #541
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    Saying that the "5% to xx%" buff is not optional is like saying that "not raiding an extra few hours a week, or an extra day a week is not an option" or that "not getting full epic gems is not an option" or that "not buying better crafted DS gear is not an option either".
    It's not. One of those things nobody will actually do. Can you guess which it is?

  2. #542
    not turning off the buff to keep a competitive rank yet cant kill anything past Yor on heroic i lol'd what are you competing against the special olympics.

    Infracted.
    Last edited by Herecius; 2012-01-23 at 10:02 PM.

  3. #543
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Skullcrack View Post
    It's not. One of those things nobody will actually do. Can you guess which it is?
    You have the option to take it, if competitiveness is your main goal. I see some guilds doing it, pumping all their guildbank gold into crafted gear and epic gems, and some other guilds on the same level of progress don't. So it's a clearly a choice, some make it, some don't. That's even obvious from inspecting some of the armory profiles in the signatures of the people who replied to this thread. Some people with equal ilvl gear and similar progress have lots of epic gems, some don't.

    Even if one of the things I listed is highly unlikely to you, there are still the other alternatives I gave you. And those are as important, if not more, to the progression and competitiveness of guilds than a 5% buff.

    This is just purely clear reason. I understand people might not like this reasoning, because it's not what they want, such stubborness never grows out of people. But eventually people will need to learn that they can't always get all the toys and preferences they exactly want. If they choose to have low raiddays and low raidhours, low motivation in upgrading their gear with the tools available, etc. then being annoyed with your specific distate for a 5% nerf is rather irrational.

    There is up to a 200% difference sometimes between the raid-activity and hours of some of the guilds who are on the same progress level in Heroic DS at the moment. Yet somehow this 5% or if it would even be 35% difference in boss-stats is going to be so hugely influential? That's irrational. Your huge discrepancy in raidhours and willingness to optimize gear as much as possible makes the 5% debuff neglectable from a local competitivity point of view.
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  4. #544
    Since when has raiding been about killing bosses slower than you could if you had a buff? It is like doing heroic bosses without buffs like fort, kings, and might. Sure you can do it and people would think you're stupid for it, but why would you want to make it that hard aside from bragging like a child?

  5. #545
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    You have the option to take it, if competitiveness is your main goal. ...
    I don't know what you're on about. My point was that nobody skipped using the buff in ICC and nobody will do it now. The other things you listed are things that many guilds actually do. Therefore one can conclude that the "choice" of using the 5% buff is somehow fundamentally different.

    The main difference is this: Disabling the buff gives you nothing tangible, but puts you at a great disadvantage. If a guild chooses to raid only 3 days, the players get more days off to do other things, if the guild chooses to not use gold on gems/crafted items they will use it elsewhere (like tank gear or handing it to the players instead).

    To make it an actual choice, Blizzard could for example make it a one time thing: It's off by default, but you can permanently turn it on. But once it's turned on you cannot get any achievements. Combine that with wowprogress awarding more progress points for those achievements and now you suddenly have a choice of whether you want to just kill stuff or you want to remain competitive.

  6. #546
    Quote Originally Posted by Brett Skullcrack View Post
    I don't know what you're on about. My point was that nobody skipped using the buff in ICC and nobody will do it now. The other things you listed are things that many guilds actually do.
    But you're talking about discussion points which have been discussed pages ago. We're talking about the WHY behind people not taking the buff, which as I pointed out irrational behaviour. Irrational behaviour sometimes does happen en masse. Often because people haven't taken their time to think about things thoroughly. If you think rationally about it there are already tons and tons of raidguilds who are trying to be competitive but who are willingly crippling themselves in that goal with low raidhours, low raiddays and low motivation on pumping effort into maximizing gear and stats of the raid.

    As I said, the sometimes 200-300% (or higher!) difference in weekly raidhours between guilds who are trying to be competitive with eachoter makes the 5% buff neglectable to have an influence on their "competitivity".

    Thus the WHY answer given: "because they want to remain competitive" has been disproven or rather proven irrational. It's not an argument that can be made when a majority of raidguilds already willingly not make certain choices to give them an edge compared to other guilds. It's just that the 5%-buff is rather "in your face" and requires little thought to understand the benefits.
    Last edited by Anarch the Subduer; 2012-01-23 at 10:25 PM.
    ♦ Scepticist ♦ Critic ♦ INTJ

  7. #547
    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    But you're talking about discussion points which have been discussed pages ago. We're talking about the WHY behind people not taking the buff, which as I pointed out irrational behaviour.
    There is nothing irrational about it, you can trivially derive it from elementary game theory if you want.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-23 at 10:28 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarchor View Post
    If you think rationally about it there are already tons and tons of raidguilds who are trying to be competitive but who are willingly crippling themselves in that goal with low raidhours, low raiddays and low motivation on pumping effort into maximizing gear and stats of the raid.

    As I said, the sometimes 200-300% (or higher!) difference in weekly raidhours between guilds who are trying to be competitive with eachoter makes the 5% buff neglectable to have an influence on their "competitivity".
    That is a fundamentally different choice. How many hours you raid, and whether you extend or not are core defining factors of a guild. You will obviously compete with guilds that raid the same amount as you. If you choose to raid 3 nights per week you won't be competing with other guilds that raid 5+ nights (assuming similar skill levels), you will be competing with other 3-day guilds.

    Thus the WHY answer given: "because they want to remain competitive" has been disproven or rather proven irrational. It's not an argument that can be made when a majority of raidguilds already willingly not make certain choices to give them an edge compared to other guilds.
    It hasn't been "disproven" in any way. There are two types of choice: those that have a reasonable tradeoff (e.g., number of raid hours) and those that are just plain stupidity (e.g., not spending your guild's gold intelligently or turning off the buff).

  8. #548
    Quote Originally Posted by Eow View Post
    I seriously dont get what all this fuss is about... Its apparent that your not as good to ever kill that boss (well maybe the 1% guys can get a lucky proc). So why do ppl whine so much about it. If you killed it hats down. If not well... obviously you need help.
    With holidays biting a good 2 weeks of a lot of guilds' raiding schedules, it's not so obvious that they need help. A bit more time would probably do the trick for a good bit of them. If this buff was coming at the end of February, the QQ wouldn't be half as bad.

    I don't mind it, but I would've rather seen it wait another month. And let's be real; nobody will be turning it off. There's no precedent and no reason. Folks are far more likely to get trolled in trade chat for living in your mom's basement if they post a post-nerf screenshot of a boss-kill with the buff turned off than they are to be congrtaulated on staying true to the tenets of special-snowflakism.
    Last edited by Stede; 2012-01-23 at 10:58 PM. Reason: misplaced modifiers

  9. #549
    Quote Originally Posted by Cyaxeres View Post
    Rank matters for recruiting purposes. I'm surprised this argument rarely comes up.
    thank you for restoring my faith in humanity
    browsing through 10pages with fingers crossed, please please SOMEONE must have the brain, it cant be just baboons here

    so yes, its all about the recruiting. you always lose players and you have to replace them by recruiting.
    and what a raider is checking 1st is your progress. no not your ranking. your progress.

    you say no to a helping buff which others will use and you will get no/worse recruits due to falling behind of other guilds

  10. #550
    Those who truly want a challenge will turn it off, those who don't are wannabe hardcores who only care about other peoples gear and not about challenge.

    It was the same in ICC, some guild down LK in blues while most people bitched about the buff.


    You guys are wannabe elitists that do not look for a challenge but rather want to be special.

  11. #551
    5% nerf to damage and health is laughably low.

    Start the qq when we reach 10-15% and more, if we ever reach them.

  12. #552
    gonna say it is an option.. but most really dont care whether they have the buff or not since heroic madness has already been beat to death... same with all other heroic modes.. and normals are on farm for the 90% of the other guilds.

  13. #553
    5% is not a big thing, however it will be when they decide to increase it to 20% in February and 35% in March. I will not be that surprised.

    But other thing is a major issue for me. I find it extremmely rude to nerf content like that 8 weeks after release having Christmas in middle. How many weeks is ithat, 5 or 6 for heroic raiding and Blizzard already tell us we hit the wall, have trouble to kill boss so they are forced to nerf. Seriously? You want us to kill heroic boss each week? There are thousands of guild that raid 3 days a week, even less, slowly each at own speed. Nobody need a push yet. Give us time at least 3 months, then nerf, not after 6 weeks !!!

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