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  1. #21
    It's mainly because of Vial of Shadows. Nerf inc soon! (tm)

  2. #22
    Blind is not a stun and you cant get that much mitigation from armor discuss.

    Read up on rogues and learn to counter them, just like learning to beat every class you can't reckstorm through, easy.

    Dont use things like recklessness when you get shadowdanced, cause thats the only way you saw 90k+ damage in 4 seconds.
    Last edited by squid; 2012-01-22 at 02:38 AM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Hirv3s View Post
    Honestly, how can a rogue triple-backstab me in arena for 3x 31k?
    He can't, stop inflating the numbers.

  4. #24
    Elemental Lord Korgoth's Avatar
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    Im assuming he meant to say Ambush, which does do 30K+ even on high resil plate, and can be spammed with Shadowdance, which is only a 1min CD. Thats not to say Backstab isnt critting in the mid to upper 20s on a geared rogue.

    Truly though rogue damage has scaled to the point that the utility and survivability that blizzard unfairly gave to rogues this expansion has become outrageous. Smoke Bomb rewarding bursting people down in short CD and being incredibly hypocritical for the Devs to even put it in the game. Vanish being buffed to practically an immunity alongside recuperate; allowing any rogue to just mongo all the time, chasing down a healer outside LOS, 80 yrds from his healer, but it doesnt matter because they cannot be killed if they have cheat death, or vanish, or recup up.

    If you want to see how rogues are overpowered, or if you somehow think they arent and dont play one yourself, just watch some twitch.tv streams, Filo, Hoodr, Woundman, Zilea there are a ton of pvp players out there streaming matches, many NAO tournament players, top end players, and after watching for an hour on almost any of their streams it will give you a real idea of just how badly Rogues are dominating arena due to being an incredibly hard target to kill, while also being able to burst down targets in under 6s while CCing the target, and taking away the ability for that target to be healed or helped with smoke bomb.

    Warriors do need to be buffed, but rogues have to be nerfed as well. As far below Arms is to Frost, Feral, Affliction, Balance (go watch the godofdamage if you dont belive that), MM, Ret, Resto, Holy, Disc, and half the other specs, Rogues are just as much above if not higher. I'd put it as Arms at -2, Frost at 1, Feral at 1, Balance at 0, Afflic at 1, MM at 0, Unholy/frost at 0, resto sham at 1, holy pally at 0, disc at 1, Ret at 0, and Sub at 2. Arms and Sub are out of line and need to be brought back to it.

    What's to be done? I think nerfing the damage is actually the wrong way to go here. Because mages crit for 30k+, ferals crit for 30k+, Mookins, ele, hunters, shadow priests... pretty much every other class but warriors is capable of doing that burst. Nerfing rogues for their damage would be wrong because of that, and because PVE exists.

    No its the overpowered Cataclysm utility and survivability buffs that need to be toned down or flat out removed on Rogues.

    I want Blizzard to turn recup into a after kill healing ability like they did to Death Strike Glyph healing so its like Victory Rush, and make the vanish immunity only last .5s instead of what 3s or 5s talented. This is giving rogues the ability to play retardedly offensive almost all game long because with vanish/recup as a immunity they can do twice, cheat death, evasion, clos, combat readiness... they dont have to worry about it. A warrior, a DK, a mage, a lock, if they over extend the other team can capitalize on it, even get kills, but a rogue can go full retard and not have any penalty for it because of Recup and Vanish working the way they do now. Recup is somewhat needed for leveling and solo play, but making it after a kill like Victory Rush, like they did to tone down DKs healing, is the proper way to have that. Not a constant heal that actually increases their damage to have it up. And coupled with Vanish guarantees they live.

    Vanish was supposed to be buffed so it didnt get broken by attacks that only hit because of latency issues, .5s, 500 ms should be enough of a buffer to stop that for anyone with a ping that is worth playing on, anything more then that is just giving them a bubble or ice block, but its better since it cant be removed. The talent that improves it should simply lower its CD by 15/30% instead of making it an immunity.

    Finally Smoke Bomb needs to removed from the game. Period. Ghostcrawler himself argued against it when it was brought up that warriors wanted special healing utility.

    In fact this is what he told warriors:
    The problem of course is that if only you get the debuff or if only you get the best debuff then warriors are mandatory for anything PvP which might be fine for you but doesn't really feel fair to everyone else. Sometimes I wish we'd just remove the debuff because it's almost impossible to balance around both having and not having it. We can make sure Mortal Strike hits hard but we're unlikely to do anything that improves the debuff.

    Which is what has happened with Smoke Bomb. In Rated BGs rogues have to be brought for it, it is a debuff, the best debuff, that makes rogues mandatory.

    Except it is far worse then simply having a higher percent healing debuff since it rewards the most unskilled, uncounterable, just flat out stupid gameplay of rush the target, hit him with cc, drop bomb and kill him. If they dont have an immunity, trinket, or huge cd from a teammate able to get into the bomb, they die. Smoke Bomb is practically binary for some classes, 1 you die, 0 you live, 0 you have a trinket,1 you dont have trinket. It does not reward skill or playing well, it rewards spamming damage as fast as you can into someone who cant control their character or be helped.

    For PVP Smoke Bomb is probably the worst ability Blizzard has ever put in the game. It needs to be removed.
    Last edited by Korgoth; 2012-01-22 at 03:09 AM.
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  5. #25
    Stood in the Fire Mookes's Avatar
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    Highly doubt they were backstabbing you for 31k unless they popped trinket.

    Your solution=rend?
    "Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity..and I'm not sure about the the universe." -Albert Einstein


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  6. #26
    Elemental Lord Korgoth's Avatar
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    Your solution=rend?
    It's TBC still?

    Rend does jack shit since blizzard made vanish a god mode immunity, and gave rogues faster movement speed in stealth, so even if you dont reopen by the time a tick of rend takes you out of stealth you are way out of charge range with recup easily healing you through the damage.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
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  7. #27
    Stood in the Fire Mookes's Avatar
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    Which is what has happened with Smoke Bomb. In Rated BGs rogues have to be brought for it, it is a debuff, the best debuff, that makes rogues mandatory.
    it's incredibly difficult to counter Smoke Bomb.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-22 at 04:18 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Korgoth View Post
    It's TBC still?

    Rend does jack shit since blizzard made vanish a god mode immunity, and gave rogues faster movement speed in stealth, so even if you dont reopen by the time a tick of rend takes you out of stealth you are way out of charge range with recup easily healing you through the damage.
    god mode immunity. Lol.

    3 seconds doesn't get a rogue out of charge range. Try harder.

    Blizzard fixed vanish, it was broken for years. It is arguably the most essential ability the Rogues have.


    I want Blizzard to turn recup into a after kill healing ability like they did to Death Strike Glyph healing so its like Victory Rush, and make the vanish immunity only last .5s instead of what 3s or 5s talented. This is giving rogues the ability to play retardedly offensive almost all game long because with vanish/recup as a immunity they can do twice, cheat death, evasion, clos, combat readiness... they dont have to worry about it. A warrior, a DK, a mage, a lock, if they over extend the other team can capitalize on it, even get kills, but a rogue can go full retard and not have any penalty for it because of Recup and Vanish working the way they do now. Recup is somewhat needed for leveling and solo play, but making it after a kill like Victory Rush, like they did to tone down DKs healing, is the proper way to have that. Not a constant heal that actually increases their damage to have it up. And coupled with Vanish guarantees they live.
    Okay, let's take Second Wind from warriors while we're at it. You don't even have to press anything for that, it's literally passive.
    Last edited by Mookes; 2012-01-22 at 04:26 AM.
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  8. #28
    Elemental Lord Korgoth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mookes View Post
    it's incredibly difficult to counter Smoke Bomb.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-22 at 04:18 AM ----------



    god mode immunity. Lol.

    3 seconds doesn't get a rogue out of charge range. Try harder.

    Blizzard fixed vanish, it was broken for years. It is arguably the most essential ability the Rogues have.




    Okay, let's take Second Wind from warriors while we're at it. You don't even have to press anything for that, it's literally passive.
    Are you that bad or are you that blinded to your own classes overpowered abilities.

    They fixed vanish by turning it into a god mode immunity. You cant kill a rogue if he just hits vanish, you cant remove vanish, its 3s on the effect, unless you glyph it for 5s right. And if you hit sprint, or just move to a pillar, you are out of Charge range. If you somehow die after vanishing, you have to be absolutely horrible. All Blizzard had to do to fix vanish, as in not having it break due to an attack incorrectly hitting after you vanished, was make it a .5s immunity, not 3s.

    And Second Wind over Recuperate. 6% heal over 10s only after being stun or immobilized. Recuperate, 3% (4% talented) heal every 3s, for 30s whenever you use the combo points. AND IT INCREASES YOUR DPS BY USING IT! TRY HARDER yourself. Only a complete moron would think they are anything close to each other.

    And as for passive, how about your 70% slow, the most overpowered slow in the game that you just derp onto your targets with auto attack.

    Dont worry though, its not like Rogues ever get a nerf, you'll get to full retard mongo play to glad if you have the pve gear and the ability to mash buttons.
    "Gamer" is not a bad word. I identify as a gamer. When calling out those who persecute and harass, the word you're looking for is "asshole." @_DonAdams
    When you see someone in a thread making the same canned responses over and over, click their name, click view forum posts, and see if they are a troll. Then don't feed them.

  9. #29
    I don't see how rogue with a legendary are any worse than casters with the legendary last tier. In fact I'd say its not even as game breaking; the rogue legendary proc has to build up and is obvious when it happens. The caster legendary is a flat proc that can do ridiculous things if you get lucky.

  10. #30
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Thompson View Post
    You can be stunlocked for 9 seconds (in best situation) and blinded for 8 seconds btw, there is diminishing returns though. Blind, Sap+Gouge and stuns are just on different drs. There is no 30 sec Evasion. 3x31k Backstab (or even Ambush) is not possible. Not even with legendaries.

    Judginging by this you must be trolling or really frustrated (I would understand both for playing a warrior in PvP).
    They aren't.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-22 at 06:23 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Hirv3s View Post
    I play a warrior as my main. I find all the other classes balanced (eg. I can compete with them), but Rogues seem to be unkillable killing machines. Honestly, how can a rogue triple-backstab me in arena for 3x 31k? I have 4.7k resilience and -47% physical damage via armor..
    Their stuns and effects seem not to have Diminishing returns, judging by the fact after I am stun-locked for 6 seconds I can be blinded for 7 seconds..
    Suprise suprise! another QQ thread where the OP has no idea how DRs work.

    P.S a rogue can't backstab you for 3x 31k.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by JBasil View Post
    They aren't.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-22 at 06:23 AM ----------



    Suprise suprise! another QQ thread where the OP has no idea how DRs work.

    P.S a rogue can't backstab you for 3x 31k.
    I actually do; when I charge an enemy - it stuns the target for 1.5 second, but after it if I use throwdown which should stun for 5 seconds, now gives a 2 second stun.

  12. #32
    Immortal Evolixe's Avatar
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    Backstab you for 31k on 4700 resilience...? I can think of only one rogue that would be able to pull those numbers right now.
    That world first fangs guy. If you look at his armory you can see he never broke 1800 before and is now facerolling 2.4k.

    Otherwise, no rogue backstabs you for that amount.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Hirv3s View Post
    I actually do; when I charge an enemy - it stuns the target for 1.5 second, but after it if I use throwdown which should stun for 5 seconds, now gives a 2 second stun.
    Charge doesn't DR with other stuns. Thus, you DON'T know how DRs work.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Holo View Post
    Backstab you for 31k on 4700 resilience...? I can think of only one rogue that would be able to pull those numbers right now.
    That world first fangs guy. If you look at his armory you can see he never broke 1800 before and is now facerolling 2.4k.

    Otherwise, no rogue backstabs you for that amount.
    Perhaps the definition of backstab also applies for ambush. If I may correct, I was shot with double 31k ambushes, and 31k backstab as a finishing move. Not any sort of difference to the fact the class is OP and should be controlled.

  15. #35
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by chosenkiwi View Post
    Wait for mists. Strange things always happen balance wise in end tiers.


    - Wait for TBC Rogues will be balanced.

    - Wait for WotLK Rogues will be balanced.

    - Wait for Cata Rogues will be balanced.

    - Wait for Mists Rogues will be balanced.




    After 6 years of playing WoW do you know what i have learnt.....................


    Blizz will always make Rogues Overpowered........................


    And Rogues will always cry at the prospects of being balanced.




    It's all too predictable.

  16. #36
    You must have never played a rogue during LK...or ever...stop crying.

  17. #37
    Deleted
    On Topic -


    Stuns should break after % of damage dealt.


    Just like they did with fear.



    This change should of been made during TBC.



    5 years later we are still waiting for this to be fixed.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by swooshie123 View Post
    On Topic -


    Stuns should break after % of damage dealt.


    Just like they did with fear.



    This change should of been made during TBC.



    5 years later we are still waiting for this to be fixed.
    Stuns shouldn't have a CD and be usable on the same target multiple times, just like fear.

  19. #39
    Deleted
    Quote Originally Posted by Razorlor View Post
    Stuns shouldn't have a CD and be usable on the same target multiple times, just like fear.

    Totally agree.

    Stuns should also have the same DR as fear and break on a set % of damage like fear.



    Now we have balance.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by swooshie123 View Post
    Totally agree.

    Stuns should also have the same DR as fear and break on a set % of damage like fear.



    Now we have balance.
    Yeah, 3 instant casts interrupts in a row plus Garrote, Kick, and Gouge.

    You should apply for a job.

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