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  1. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by hellar View Post
    How are they going to make DE hard? They said they want to cater to the casual player and allow them to be able to join a DE pug and be able to understand how to down a boss without much communication of course. Sounds like if a guild ever does a DE its going to be a cake walk.
    They are going to be hard in a sense that the attacking players cant all do the same job, AKA zerg the boss down. For instance Tequatl will trap players close to him in a bone barrier and then release a gas aoeing players near him. The fastest way to take these down are the artillery cannons on the beaches. Well if all your attackers were attacking Tequatl then the artillery cannons will have been overrun with Tequatl's minions, Not only that but your attackers are now dieing because they are trapped to close to Tequatl and the gaslike aoe is killing them.

    Each fight will have mechanics like this where if u dont kill adds they will overrun you, if you dont help your friendly NPC's they wont have a super weapon ready to help you with the boss, or if you dont counter the bosses abilities he will kill you. Just things like that.

    It doesn't take a guild to realize after 2-3 deaths from being trapped behind a bone barrier that maybe i should try to help the npc's on the beaches guarding the artillery so we can free players stuck in the bone barrier.

  2. #42
    In my experience, I've always enjoyed content with fewer, closer people. I think 25 man raids and larger raids in general became popular mostly just because they dropped better items. Ppl flocked to them for that reason.
    In a large raid, ul have like maybe 5-10 ppl you'll really talk to, even for guildies...and often chat became chaotic. Sure, it's quite epic with so much going on...but 10 man content is harder and more satisfying, and I always ultimatey found more enjoyable because I was closer to all the ppl involved.

    I just don't think that the premise of having more ppl in hard content is more fun is necesserially true.

  3. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by hellar View Post
    How are they going to make DE hard? They said they want to cater to the casual player and allow them to be able to join a DE pug and be able to understand how to down a boss without much communication of course. Sounds like if a guild ever does a DE its going to be a cake walk.
    Unlike in other games, DEs don't have to be beat. If you defeat it, a chain of events start. If you fail, a DIFFERENT chain of events start. They can make events challenging because they will want people to be able to see both sides without intentionally throwing the fight.

    It really has nothing to do with how much time people play either, so I don't see how someone playing casually won't be able to play well, especially since people who can't farm for 20 hours a week aren't gimped.
    [quote author=ðεrfεℓ † καðαrηε link=topic=158876.msg2123362#msg2123362 date=1265649724]
    And who are you?
    Â* A two-feet-tall midget dual wielding 5ft long two-handed swords?
    Â* Or a blue-skinned half-squid-half-goat uncorrupted demon of light from outer space who is a wild shaman?
    Â* Or are you a killed, then raised, then liberated, then killed, then raised, then liberated again human whose eyes used to glow not, then glow yellow, and now glow blue (I'm not even talking of your spine portruding through your skin, your armor and your cloak)(and the ability to speak without lower jaw)?
    Â* Or are you an elf who can turn into a cat, bear, seal, cheetah, eagle and tree, but still has to use ground mounts which you magically conjure from thin air? [/quote]

  4. #44
    Stood in the Fire MissCleo's Avatar
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    In addition, I believe Arenanet said somewhere that they wanted the success/failure rate of DEs to be around 60/40 - or at least I've seen those numbers thrown around in this Forum before, not sure what the primary source is. If this is true, that's hardly easy. And Elite DEs could be even harder. Keep in mind that what we've seen so far in demos, like Tequatl and The Shatterer, were (1) level 50ish bosses and (2) nerfed for the purposes of the demonstration.

    Given the way dynamic event chains work, sometimes it's okay for players to fail. The game design takes this into account, and so content doesn't necessarily have to be tuned in a way that ensures a random group of players will always have a great chance at success. Sometimes you'll fail, and then that'll open up a new realm of possibilities, or you'll have to come back and try again with a new approach.

    All in all, some dynamic events are bound to be easy, but there's no reason they all have to be.

    As for large scale content exclusive to guilds, there don't seem to be any plans for this sort of thing, but that doesn't mean that there aren't things you and your guild can do together. You can still get together and participate in DEs, and of course there's WvWvW PvP, where you can all coordinate together to accomplish specific goals. If none of this sounds fun to you, then it's possible this game won't be for you - but I'd advise you to give it a try first.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    @Freehoof: You're assuming it's a technological problem, when it's a social problem. No amount of technological innovation will fix the fact that the USERS are the problem. In the end, you can either give the users what they want, or die along with many other games that believed that they can "educate the users to like something that they do not like now".

    And it's those users that are the ones that will decide if game is commercially viable or not.
    It's not a technological problem, but it does stem from game design. WoW is designed in a very specific way, and that involves guilds putting large groups together to down instanced content. WoW players have a particular set of expectations because they've played this particular model for however long. Players of other MMOs might come to the table with a different set of expectations. GW2 has several things in common with WoW, but it's not following the same design model. It's a paradigm shift, and not everyone may appreciate the new model. Some people might prefer the way WoW's raids work, and that's okay. That doesn't mean, however, that in GW2 there is no content large guilds can do together - and it doesn't mean that people will look at "interference" from other players in the game world in the same way they view clicking off the DS nerf.

    GW2 doesn't have to be a "WoW killer" - it's not subscription based, so for the same $15 a month you pay now for WoW, you could potentially play both games. If you find that you're missing WoW-style raiding in GW2, you can keep doing that - in WoW. Give the new paradigm a chance, though, and keep separate games separate.

  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelbanes View Post
    In my experience, I've always enjoyed content with fewer, closer people. I think 25 man raids and larger raids in general became popular mostly just because they dropped better items. Ppl flocked to them for that reason.
    In a large raid, ul have like maybe 5-10 ppl you'll really talk to, even for guildies...and often chat became chaotic. Sure, it's quite epic with so much going on...but 10 man content is harder and more satisfying, and I always ultimatey found more enjoyable because I was closer to all the ppl involved.

    I just don't think that the premise of having more ppl in hard content is more fun is necesserially true.
    Which still doesn't change my point - 10 > 5 by far, still, so even 10 man guilds will be gimped :P
    Quote Originally Posted by mistersister View Post
    Unlike in other games, DEs don't have to be beat. If you defeat it, a chain of events start. If you fail, a DIFFERENT chain of events start. They can make events challenging because they will want people to be able to see both sides without intentionally throwing the fight.

    It really has nothing to do with how much time people play either, so I don't see how someone playing casually won't be able to play well, especially since people who can't farm for 20 hours a week aren't gimped.
    Errm, I don't think anyone plays with the intent to lose in a DE, or in any event even. Neither will I feel happy if the DE fails, no matter if there are consequences after that or not.

    --

    And really, stop assuming everyone prefers the 25 man format because it offers better/more loot. If anything, it's extremely narrowminded. Believe it or not, there are are people out there whose lust for purples isn't so big and they still prefer the higher numbers. Generalizing and putting all people under the same sign makes you just as 'elitist' as the people who threaten to dislike the game or compare it to WoW

  6. #46
    The Lightbringer Glytch's Avatar
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    im about to adopt the stance of "if you dont like the game just dont play it, we dont care"
    The Original Ganksta

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    Quote Originally Posted by Durzlla View Post
    then again i'm pretty sure you're smarter then the average dumbass

  7. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Ruak View Post
    Which still doesn't change my point - 10 > 5 by far, still, so even 10 man guilds will be gimped :P
    Why? GW2's explorable 5 man's are supposed to be as hard as raids...
    You can just split into x number of groups
    ...and I've always enjoyed smaller groups. It's much more personal. And it's easier to build more engaging content for smaller groups.
    ...Some of these DEs are bound to be quite hard and you can take the whole guild along...

    And the better gear/bigger raids is just my major experience. I think this is why the majority of ppl do them. But yes...thankfully I'm not narrowminded I did say "mostly" and I'm not putting everyone into 1 basket. For the number of subs wow has, you have to generalise to some extent...

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirrelbanes View Post
    Why? GW2's explorable 5 man's are supposed to be as hard as raids...
    There are many, widely rehashed arguments that explain why you cannot keep the encounter as hard with fewer people, especially after you go below certain thresholds. It has to do with having to cut mechanics (and even in WoW, they ended up overbalacing numbers to compensate for removed difficulty from missing numbers).

    This entire argument is rehashed in so many different posts and explanations that you could fill a small library with them. Arm yourself with google and check them out. Notably arenanet agrees with this argument, which is why outdoors DE balancing adds more skills and mechanics to encounter as number of people grows.

  9. #49
    GW2 is about server progress, not guild progress. Server is the new guild.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Lucky_ View Post
    There are many, widely rehashed arguments that explain why you cannot keep the encounter as hard with fewer people, especially after you go below certain thresholds. It has to do with having to cut mechanics (and even in WoW, they ended up overbalacing numbers to compensate for removed difficulty from missing numbers).

    This entire argument is rehashed in so many different posts and explanations that you could fill a small library with them. Arm yourself with google and check them out. Notably arenanet agrees with this argument, which is why outdoors DE balancing adds more skills and mechanics to encounter as number of people grows.
    I thought those mostly revolved around the prescribed roles forced upon ppl by the trinity, which often means no more than 3 mechanics in 5 man. so...you multiply these mechanics by adding more people...or you remove the restriction in the first place.
    Anet doing away with this potentially immediately opens up 5.
    But well...we'll just have to see what the dungeons are like I suppose.

  11. #51
    I am Murloc! Wrathonia's Avatar
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    Really, the main problem I am hearing from the OP is "me and my guild". The open world is made specifically with community in mind. They want people to gather and work together. "You should always be happy to see another player" is something people at Arenanet have said often. However OP doesn't want to play with anyone outside his guild. That is pretty much exactly the opposite of how they are building this game. Why else would they let you join multiple guilds at one time? If this doesn't sound like something you want, this probably won't be the game for you.

    Also, you really should look into the details of elite events. If people don't pay attention and follow the flow of battle you will fail. They will be challenging and the more people join, the more challenging it gets. I love them because they are perfect for almost any guild as well. Only got 10 people in your guild? No prob, you still have a chance by yourselves. Megaguild or guild alliance? Bring everyone that wants to join. No one gets excluded because they are the wrong class/role or you already have your set amount of people and you don't have room for more. I always hated large guilds because if you weren't needed, you were benched.

    Elite events will also probably be a good way to scout out a new recruit. All in all I see no negatives, other than cutting out the old regime and expectations. Back to the OP, what you say seems like what I have heard in many arguments before. I hope GW2 squishes both sides of said arguments. Hardcore vs. Casuals and elitism. I am not saying OP is any of that, but it sounds like a broken record at this point in regards to those playstyles. I hope the only types of players in GW2 will be newbies, skilled players and those in between.
    Last edited by Wrathonia; 2012-01-25 at 07:13 AM. Reason: typing on a phone is hard for me

  12. #52
    If anything, GW2 is trying hard to make this game a real MMO again. You know an MMO where being in open world and just cooperating with people you find along matters. Not the "MMO" where you find a group of 10-30 players (aka guild) and all you do is enter instances and do stuff exclusively for your group (and the rest of the server has no impact on you in any way).

    MMO should be about open, server community and non-instantiated.
    As the name says - MULTI MASSIVE ONLINE. Sorry, but can you tell me what's so multi massive in WoW for example? Or SWTOR, RIFT and any other big "mmo" game for that matter.

    The last thing that was "massive" in WoW were the pre-battlemaster Vanilla PvP battles in Hillsbrad Foothills, while people were waiting for AV to pop.

    I think GW2 is trying to bring back what MMO is all about.
    Last edited by Grable; 2012-01-25 at 08:05 AM.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  13. #53
    Of course this is the GW2 sub forum and people, who post here, really like the game already (including myself tbh), but aren't some of you guys a little bit wide-eyed?

    There are some things with the design of GW2, that bother me as well and I don't want to believe, "that it will work out somehow". If I recall right, all dungeons are going to be 5-man only, so there will not be instanced version large-scale boss fights for a guild. So, a guild plans to defeat the shatter on <date> at <time> and everyone logs into the game at that time, only to find, that a lot of other players are already there, having brought the boss to 30%.
    How does it feel like an accomplishment to kill a boss, if he was already at 30%, when you entered the fight?
    Also, let's say these other players resemble a guild as well.
    Will they be happy, that other people joined the fight? Not necessarily, it breaks the feeling of having achieved something with purely your best friends/your guild.

    How do the guys of ArenaNet want to avoid, that you come to the event and it's already nearly over? "Do another event.", you say? What if I want to see this particular event and I have already done all of the others?

    Wouldn't it suck, if you did stages 3-4 of a dynamic event then stop playing and come back later to see, that it's now at stage 7 or resetted to stage 1? I'm surely not the only person, who would want to see 100% of every event in the game. Also, how fast do these events reset and how long will it take to complete a full event chain? Will players be able to keep an event at the last stage for months?

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Arazen View Post
    SNIP!
    tbh...ur stuck in the linear mentality.
    It is precisely this mentality that Anet are trying to...and I don't use the word lightly...combat.
    They will create a global community...and they won't allow a situation whereby a massive event will happen without prior warning.
    U need to get out of the fixed instanced raid mentality.
    GW2 is about so much more than that.
    And no...it wouldn't suck to see an event chain different from when u logged off...it would be immersive in a way that other games can't even begin to approach. I think u would fall back into it right awat.
    There are always so many dispirate events going on...any time u log on it just sweeps u along...because it's not disjointed in the way u think it might be.

  15. #55
    Fluffy Kitten Bloodhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arazen View Post
    Of course this is the GW2 sub forum and people, who post here, really like the game already (including myself tbh), but aren't some of you guys a little bit wide-eyed?

    There are some things with the design of GW2, that bother me as well and I don't want to believe, "that it will work out somehow". If I recall right, all dungeons are going to be 5-man only, so there will not be instanced version large-scale boss fights for a guild. So, a guild plans to defeat the shatter on <date> at <time> and everyone logs into the game at that time, only to find, that a lot of other players are already there, having brought the boss to 30%.
    How does it feel like an accomplishment to kill a boss, if he was already at 30%, when you entered the fight?
    Also, let's say these other players resemble a guild as well.
    Will they be happy, that other people joined the fight? Not necessarily, it breaks the feeling of having achieved something with purely your best friends/your guild.

    How do the guys of ArenaNet want to avoid, that you come to the event and it's already nearly over? "Do another event.", you say? What if I want to see this particular event and I have already done all of the others?

    Wouldn't it suck, if you did stages 3-4 of a dynamic event then stop playing and come back later to see, that it's now at stage 7 or resetted to stage 1? I'm surely not the only person, who would want to see 100% of every event in the game. Also, how fast do these events reset and how long will it take to complete a full event chain? Will players be able to keep an event at the last stage for months?
    Okay let me explain this one,

    In a matter like the Shatterer which is an open boss event, you're saying that a guild should be able to kill it by themselves (like in an instanced way). This is exactly what GW2 is trying to prevent, i.e. as the Horde/Alliance difference, having the ability of guilds clearing world bosses by themselves will steal the ability from other people to play those events as well, Guild Wars 2 is trying to make a open and social and let's not forget a dynamic world, this is not open-wided and this is not ignorance from the people here defending Guild Wars 2 standpoints, we understand where people are coming from and we understand what you guys mean, however this currently does not fit in the game.

    The only thing I would see happening is an Urgoz/The Deep style like dungeon requiring 10-15 people to defeat, which (imho) would be pretty epic. If people on this forum like ArenaNet's plans on the Open World bosses/no raid style dungeons and the ability for 5 man to clear a dungeon it wouldn't be a bad thing at all. If you are looking for a game where you can purely play with 10-15-20-25-40 people with the guild and nobody else to jump in and help as well, go search for some other game, because Guild Wars 2 won't be suited for you, if you're okay with all of this, then welcome and join the community.

    Everybody is free to discuss this in their own way unless they offend each other or start a flame war, you have been warned =).

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  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Arazen View Post
    There are some things with the design of GW2, that bother me as well and I don't want to believe, "that it will work out somehow". If I recall right, all dungeons are going to be 5-man only, so there will not be instanced version large-scale boss fights for a guild. So, a guild plans to defeat the shatter on <date> at <time> and everyone logs into the game at that time, only to find, that a lot of other players are already there, having brought the boss to 30%.
    How does it feel like an accomplishment to kill a boss, if he was already at 30%, when you entered the fight?
    There's already a ton of game that give your guild a feeling of accomplishment when killing a boss (WoW, RIFT, SWTOR). This one is not about that. Yes it will help if you have a well coordinated group (guild) of players that helps downing the boss but people need to realize it's an open MMO, no more private content for your guild, the rest of the server community matters and gets to experience the boss too.
    Last edited by Grable; 2012-01-25 at 12:47 PM.
    "Loss of blood... My only weakness!"
    ~ Warlord Khan, Magicka

    Anyway, if you don't already see where I'm going with this, allow me to spell it out: the only meaningful MMORPG "endgame" -- i.e., something novel to do after the progression process is over -- is that of the sandbox.

  17. #57
    So you wouldn't mind missing out on cool boss mechanics and would get the same epic feel of having contributed to the defeat of a boss, even if you only helped with the last 20%?
    I'm not being negative, I'm curious. Curious about how ArenaNet will make their new approach work. Will these large boss events be moderated by hired game masters or will they be automated? How often will they repeat, if I couldn't participate the first time?
    If I understood the DE mechanic right, it works like node system with arrows to other nodes, depending on whether the players succeeded or not. So that giant epic boss battle would come somewhere at the end with multiple paths of success/defeat leading there, wouldn't it?
    Would the boss engage again, if the players lost the last node and regained it a tad later?

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Arazen View Post
    So you wouldn't mind missing out on cool boss mechanics and would get the same epic feel of having contributed to the defeat of a boss, even if you only helped with the last 20%?
    I'm not being negative, I'm curious. Curious about how ArenaNet will make their new approach work. Will these large boss events be moderated by hired game masters or will they be automated? How often will they repeat, if I couldn't participate the first time?
    If I understood the DE mechanic right, it works like node system with arrows to other nodes, depending on whether the players succeeded or not. So that giant epic boss battle would come somewhere at the end with multiple paths of success/defeat leading there, wouldn't it?
    Would the boss engage again, if the players lost the last node and regained it a tad later?
    The first thing that came to my mind is WoW. How many bosses have you actually killed as a player? Almost none. Every time at the end someone help you(or at beginning/during the fight) and finish the boss but you still get the epic feeling.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Arazen View Post
    So you wouldn't mind missing out on cool boss mechanics and would get the same epic feel of having contributed to the defeat of a boss, even if you only helped with the last 20%?
    I'm not being negative, I'm curious. Curious about how ArenaNet will make their new approach work. Will these large boss events be moderated by hired game masters or will they be automated? How often will they repeat, if I couldn't participate the first time?
    If I understood the DE mechanic right, it works like node system with arrows to other nodes, depending on whether the players succeeded or not. So that giant epic boss battle would come somewhere at the end with multiple paths of success/defeat leading there, wouldn't it?
    Would the boss engage again, if the players lost the last node and regained it a tad later?
    Well...ya see the thing is that there's hundreds upon hundreds of things happenign all over Tyria. Sure The Shatter is in once place causing mayhem...but at the end of the day he's only 1 lvl 50 event...
    There's will be so many of these happening very often all over the world. It's not like an instanced event that happens at a set time.....
    The elite DE events that have been talked about..there will be pre events for all of these and ul know when they happen. It will prob be harder for u to miss them than to actually be there for them..

  20. #60
    Fluffy Kitten Bloodhunter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arazen View Post
    So you wouldn't mind missing out on cool boss mechanics and would get the same epic feel of having contributed to the defeat of a boss, even if you only helped with the last 20%?
    I'm not being negative, I'm curious. Curious about how ArenaNet will make their new approach work. Will these large boss events be moderated by hired game masters or will they be automated? How often will they repeat, if I couldn't participate the first time?
    If I understood the DE mechanic right, it works like node system with arrows to other nodes, depending on whether the players succeeded or not. So that giant epic boss battle would come somewhere at the end with multiple paths of success/defeat leading there, wouldn't it?
    Would the boss engage again, if the players lost the last node and regained it a tad later?
    It's not like a line from 1 to 10, that if you finish a DE you'll go to level 2, and again to level 3, but if you fail level 3, you won't go to level 2.



    If you have a group of Bandits invading a small town and you manage to defend the town and drive the bandits back, some new DE will spawn which tells you to go after them and hunt their hide out, if you fail this it does not automatically happen (we don't know for sure for some DE's, because we don't know all of them) that the bandits now hunt the town again. It could spawn some other DE, to collect materials to enforce the previous attacked city so they have more defenses for the bandits in the future. So that would be;

    From level 1, to level 2, but you didn't manage to beat level 2, so you would head out some other direction and went to 2B, or 3B or whatever you want to call it.

    See it as a tree branch, the first one is the stick, after that you have 2 branches (or even more depending on the requirements and which requirements your group can succeed) after heading unto 1 part of the branch another 2 branches appear and your group head out to another part as well. In the end you'll hit the end of the branch and it could take hours/days/weeks/months for a chain to reappear.

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