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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    Actually it is bad design because players out strip content at a rate quicker than content is raised. The problem becomes exponential the further one goes back.

    In encounter design they [Blizzard] have to commit more resources to develop new content with the current fixed rate of player power gains at a decent rate of newness. Two problems with this in practice: 1. time. it takes time to make things. lol 2. money. resources spent previously are now irrelevant.

    Even during a short progression cycle, um say... Sunwell->Nax20.0, the power jump was such that there was literally no raid or encounter in the game anymroe that was meaningful relative to my guild's power gain. So we had like, no reason to play for weeks.

    Although this is a problem to a lesser extent in other MMOs, gear inflation > content expansion realistically leads to lot of wasted assets & high commitment of future resources for content expansion. I am approaching that point soon in SWTOR where less than Nightmare mode is trivial to me. And got to that point in Rift a few months ago where I literally can no longer die-- and if I did die, the big boss would have had to get my HP bar to 0 twice.

    There is nothing wrong with progressive gear models provided content expansion is kept at a quick pace. Most often, it is not.
    That's not purely the fault of boss/progression design, though. Guild Wars 2 has one system and WoW has one system, and they are both likely to have their flaws. The solution to a shortage of content at end game is indeed a design issue, but more to do with designing a world which is fun to be in to begin with, with lots of useful tasks to perform. Scaling bosses, I dare say, is a lazy solution. Fortunately, GW2 does seem to have plenty of other things to keep a player busy apart from bosses, so I don't mind really.

  2. #42
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Oh and Maarius, I think in regards to the % damage traits, I don't think they'll scale simply because they're flat percentages and the weapon and skill damage is getting scaled down anyways.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
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  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    If you aren't skilled enough to survive a random low level boss in three years from now, then you actually deserve to die imho.

    Not the point. If you are a seasoned hero with magical armour plates, spells, powerful weaponry, and so on, then a lvl 5 boss with a dagger and a grudge against authority should not be able to touch you.

  4. #44
    well you can't talk about a strict lore sequence because it is up to you when the lore happens for you. Storymode will have a lore-chronology because of Destiny's Edge, but explorable mode only tells what happened after the story mode events in this dungeon.

    Besides, it's pretty lame when you say (correct me if I'm wrong) a boss should be dead after you outleveled his levelrange - so he should be gone for good. That's simply not fun. I want to go back to fun experiences and do them over and over again. Lore isn't important for me here, when I can have fun.

    I have to admit, I'm a little confused what your point is. (english isn't my mother tongue, sry)

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-23 at 09:21 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Blznsmri View Post
    Oh and Maarius, I think in regards to the % damage traits, I don't think they'll scale simply because they're flat percentages and the weapon and skill damage is getting scaled down anyways.
    logical conclusion, I like it

  5. #45
    Herald of the Titans theredviola's Avatar
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    Your posts are great Maairus. Thanks for making a post devoted to this, also thanks for translating a few things that even I was unclear on. =D

  6. #46
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    (english isn't my mother tongue, sry)
    Because of this one statement I finally understand a lyric from a song. After like 7 years....

    Thank you...


    Oh yeah and that was way off topic.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Malthurius's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    Not the point. If you are a seasoned hero with magical armour plates, spells, powerful weaponry, and so on, then a lvl 5 boss with a dagger and a grudge against authority should not be able to touch you.
    If you can bleed, a dagger can kill you. You can have all the gear in the world, but you can still die if you're incompetent enough, but most likely you wouldn't have the magical armor, spells and weaponry if you were that incompetent in the first place.
    "Questions are for those seeking answers. Those who have answers are those who have asked questions." -Mike R. (Malthurius)

  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    Not the point. If you are a seasoned hero with magical armour plates, spells, powerful weaponry, and so on, then a lvl 5 boss with a dagger and a grudge against authority should not be able to touch you.
    pretty boring if magical armor, spells and weaponry makes you invincible. Aragorn was always in danger to get a knive in the back from a little ork. That's why he is a hero for me.

    @nice guys:
    you're welcome
    Last edited by Maarius; 2012-01-23 at 08:28 PM.

  9. #49
    Wouldn't those "low lvl bosses" scale up aswell?
    l'alurl gol zhah elghinyrr gol.

  10. #50
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dupin View Post
    Wouldn't those "low lvl bosses" scale up aswell?
    You'd scale down to them. Having content scale to the level of the player is harder to do than have the player scale to the content. Think of the opposite of The Elder Scrolls.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Malthurius View Post
    If you can bleed, a dagger can kill you. You can have all the gear in the world, but you can still die if you're incompetent enough, but most likely you wouldn't have the magical armor, spells and weaponry if you were that incompetent in the first place.
    Well yeah, but the point of being in an RPG is that those items actually do make you bad ass. And like you say, you wouldn't have the items if you weren't.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-23 at 08:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    pretty boring if magical armor, spells and weaponry makes you invincible. Aragorn was always in danger to get a knive in the back from a little ork.
    Not invincible, just bad ass. Notice how Aragorn could kill a million orcs and yet never dies himself. And he's wearing... rags.

  12. #52
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    Well yeah, but the point of being in an RPG is that those items actually do make you bad ass. And like you say, you wouldn't have the items if you weren't.
    The armor and weapons are only as good as the person using them.

    Just like in WoW really, you can give someone a (near) full set of raid level BoE epics and no amount of shiny is going to make that person good at their jobs.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  13. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    Not invincible, just bad ass. Notice how Aragorn could kill a million orcs and yet never dies himself. And he's wearing... rags.
    exactly, he is not bad ass because of his rags. He is because of his skill. GW2 is all about skill.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    /10 charrs
    SO basically you're assuming that scaling will be different and expansion skills will be equal power as other skills with no sources to back up that claim.
    The most important thing to realize is, no matter what you experience you are never alone; no matter what you are struggling through, there is always someone who is more unfortunate.

    It's Ok to Be Takei (Rank 35/ Fractal Level 22)

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Mojo Risin View Post
    That's not purely the fault of boss/progression design, though. Guild Wars 2 has one system and WoW has one system, and they are both likely to have their flaws. The solution to a shortage of content at end game is indeed a design issue, but more to do with designing a world which is fun to be in to begin with, with lots of useful tasks to perform. Scaling bosses, I dare say, is a lazy solution. Fortunately, GW2 does seem to have plenty of other things to keep a player busy apart from bosses, so I don't mind really.
    For me and like minded players, it doesn't. I play Warcraft to raid/dungeon run. I am not the sort of player overly interested in non-raiding or non-dungeoneering. So by course alone, it takes Blizzard a lot of resources to keep the content tiers moving for that segment of the playerbase. Again, a lesser issue in other games.

    As a designer I would want to provide for maximum player engagement [in any given activity] with as low an overhead in development and resources for my myself as possible. Hyper inflation of player power relative to content challenge is fine, IF a game can match that gain in player power gains with suitable challenge. Otherwise it breaks down terribly for players and developers.

    I am not particularly bored because I killed the Lich King/HM Soa/Estrode 30 times. I am bored because the threshold of having to play properly in lowered by acquisition alone. When a developer can't push out a new raid in <month then I no longer need to log in.

    I don't doubt GW2 will have it's share of pitfalls. But getting player power gains closer to the actual pace of new content tiers goes a long way to solving many of the issues that MMOs previous have faced with so-called "on farm" doldrums.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-01-23 at 08:41 PM.

  16. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyadissa View Post
    SO basically you're assuming that scaling will be different and expansion skills will be equal power as other skills with no sources to back up that claim.
    Arenanet stated that they have no skills that are more powerful than others, because you'd feel that you would have to take this skill then. This was claimed when they talked about thief skills if I remember correctly.

    Edit: I think this was about traits, but that's not really different, they want you to have options.
    Last edited by Maarius; 2012-01-23 at 08:54 PM.

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    Arenanet stated that they have no skills that are more powerful than others, because you'd feel that you would have to take this skill then. This was claimed when they talked about thief skills if I remember correctly.

    Edit: I think this was about traits, but that's not really different, they want you to have options.
    Think into reality here, nobody can create a perfectly balanced game. They can say all they want, but it's unlikely going to happen.

    Perfect example is RIFT, they claimed you could run anything you wanted but that wasn't the case. It quickly became, only taking rogue tanks, etc.
    The most important thing to realize is, no matter what you experience you are never alone; no matter what you are struggling through, there is always someone who is more unfortunate.

    It's Ok to Be Takei (Rank 35/ Fractal Level 22)

  18. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Deyadissa View Post
    Think into reality here, nobody can create a perfectly balanced game. They can say all they want, but it's unlikely going to happen.

    Perfect example is RIFT, they claimed you could run anything you wanted but that wasn't the case. It quickly became, only taking rogue tanks, etc.
    this has nothing to do with perfect balance. It should feel like you have a choice, thats all.

  19. #59
    Well in Rift can't you run anything you wanted? Only taking a specific class is due to preference, nothing more.

    It will be like that in GW2 as well. People are going to do speed clears and such, people will want their specific ideal team setup. It happened in Guild Wars and it happens in every game.

  20. #60
    Stood in the Fire MissCleo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deyadissa View Post
    Think into reality here, nobody can create a perfectly balanced game. They can say all they want, but it's unlikely going to happen.

    Perfect example is RIFT, they claimed you could run anything you wanted but that wasn't the case. It quickly became, only taking rogue tanks, etc.
    In a game where there is no trinity system, and a large number of skills are based on situational utility, however, I feel like balance should be easier. Certain skills might be better at certain times, but if you put all your eggs in one basket when creating a party, you might find yourself lacking the versatility of a more diverse group. Based on what I've seen of the GW2 professions, I have little reason to doubt that the "bring the player, not the class" goal of many MMOs might actually be true here, or at least more accurate than it has been in other class-based games.

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