Heroic: Ultraxion - Bloodlust and Healer comp questions

[Susira]

Hi all, we are going to attempt ultraxion on heroic. We had a normal kill where everyone was above 36K.

Raid Comp:

Tanks:

Bear (Four Set)
Prot Paladin

Healers:
Holy Paladin
Resto Shaman OR attonement priest or resto druid

Dps:
Fire Mage
Survival Hunter
Affliction Warlock
Shadow Priest OR Enhance Shaman (Spriest has attonement spec, and resto shaman can go enhance)
Combat Rogue
Elemental Shaman or Boomkin or Resto Druid or another fire mage...

My questions are:

1. I've seen threads where people let the healers go into the twilight realm and pop lust at the start for the dps, the question is with our raid comp would it be better to save it for the 5 minute mark or use it at the start? Fire mage 12% more damage, affliction warlock soul drain, survival hunter kill shot, shadow priest swd etc, would it be more benefical to pop it with those? or just use it at the start.. sorry for the bad english (fingers are cold)

2. What are the dps requirements?

3. what buffs should the healers use


Please post the roster of what would be the best.

thanks

[Kardone]

haste will boost the affliction lock and fire mages damage during execute range. However it will diminish the strength of kill shot and sw:d due to them being cooldown based and hitting heroism is not going to boost them. In fact it will shorten the time spent in the execute range and reduce their effective dps because they will not hit as many KS / swd as they would without hero.

IMO lust at the beginning. Run shadowpriest for dispersion on hour of twilight (that is if the enhance and spriest are roughly the same dps).

Healer buffs have pally go red then blue and rsham to grab green. rsham dps for a good amount of time until people start hurting and he gets green. Pally wants to carry most of the time and be ~10-20% mana at most when he gets blue.

[Tearyn]

Can link what we had on our last kill, which was also about half the raids first untraxion kill, including me, it also wasn't a perfect setup, as we're usually 25man but due to a lot of people being away for a time for various reasons we're 2x 10man teams for a while. The hunter also was not playing his usual spec, guess we wanted the 3% damage thing. I don't organize, i just pewpew :3

i suspect good healing made up for slightly low dps.

We lusted at the end.

Tanks:
Blood DK: 18249 dps
Blood DK(offspec tank): 14463 dps

Dps:
Fury warrior: 44614 dps
aff lock: 39595 dps
Shadowpriest: 34809 dps
Firemage: 34212 dps
Ele shaman: 32182 dps
Beastmaster hunter: 31315 dps

Total: 250648.8 dps

Healers:
Holy paladin
Resto druid

Logs:
http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=9437&e=9773

Our mage actually frapsed it, if that's helpful at all.

[Susira]

Ok So..

HoT Soaks:

1) Tank 1 / Fire Mage (Cauterize)
2) Tank 2 / Rogue (CoS or Feint)
3) Hunter / Spriest

repeat?

[Cemila]

I haven't done the fight, but wouldn't it be possible for the DPS that want it later to phase out with the healers right at the beginning? Like someone said the lock and mage would want it at the end so they could phase out and use the 2nd BL

[Nurse]

at 10ppl your damage dealers should give 32k dps +

[Tearyn]

Like i said, i don't organize our raids, so it's not my forte, but i don't see anything wrong with those soakers.
also, in the video i linked you can hear our elemental shaman call out who's staying out, and when.
We had our paladin do first and 4th i believe, unsure on the specifics, i imagine bubble 4th and deal with 1st by minor CDs and healing help, he only barley survived it, 5% ish.


How much your dps'ers need to do depends a bit on how much your tanks can manage,some tanks run with dps trinkets on this to help, and whether you have an atonement priest or not, but you want to hit about 250k raid dps.

Our dps averaged 36,322, while the tanks averaged 16,356, and the healers did nothing obviously.

[ananoon]

Lusting up front has been proven to always be better for dps if possible. Some classes benefit with it at the end because of the execute (aff locks), but in general, having all your procs right at the beginning with lust is better overall. If your lock can go demo, he would benefit from the lust up front a lot, because of meta + procs.

Two DK tanks for this fight is great, especially if either of them have their tank 4pc. I switch in dps gear and reforge to fallen crusader to increase my tank dps. Dancing Rune Weapon is up for a great portion of the fight if they use it on CD, and is a huge dps boost, not to mention it compensating for loss of avoidance when wearing dps gear.

We had our paly solo-heal this fight, and had the two other healers go dps. Here's the video and logs:

http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/r...?s=6543&e=6847
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6Trw...layer_embedded

[Hottie4Hire]

Does anyone else feel like these H Ultraxion threads are just a bunch of people posting their bragging rights?

There's a reason why you don't lust up front most fights. It's not "better" to lust at the front. Perhaps depending on your comp it COULD be? Any class that takes a bit to start doing full dps is going to be hurt by lust at the start. The reason I would think it's best not to on Ultraxion is because of fading light and hour of twilight severely cutting into your dps time, when at the start you'll get a full 40 seconds without having to deal with them. That's the reason.

[ananoon]

Does anyone else feel like these H Ultraxion threads are just a bunch of people posting their bragging rights?

I personally find it very useful when I ask a question in the forums to have those who have experience post logs and video. I find analyzing logs of real kills makes and being able to ask the raiders involved questions about it specifically as being invaluable.

There's a reason why you don't lust up front most fights. It's not "better" to lust at the front. Perhaps depending on your comp it COULD be? Any class that takes a bit to start doing full dps is going to be hurt by lust at the start. The reason I would think it's best not to on Ultraxion is because of fading light and hour of twilight severely cutting into your dps time, when at the start you'll get a full 40 seconds without having to deal with them. That's the reason.

There are many that disagree with you. There's a great thread on this subject on EJ with a lot of nice math that shows that in a fight without any special dps mechanics, lusting up front is better than waiting for execute. The execute has a peculiar feedback loop where the higher the dps is in this stage, the shorter it lasts, where as the procs and CDs you have up front in a fight don't have this problem. Having the whole raid benefit fully from lust with their prepots and full CDs will far outweigh any potential benefit to the one affliction locks execute.

[Hottie4Hire]

Well of course if Bloodlust won't last the full length of time you wouldn't want to use it later on. Assuming the boss has enough health that sub 20% will last 40 seconds, then there's no way it would be better not to do that with a normal class makeup.

As for my first post, what exactly do you get out of looking at Ultraxion logs? You can see the amount of dps someone used to kill it? Basic math can tell you that. I can see it being helpful still, but the main point of them posting these logs is very clearly to brag about how good they are. Ultraxion threads have way more logs posted in it than any other fight, and logs are probably the least helpful on this fight out of them all.

[Tearyn]

Wasn't trying to brag. Despite what you might think.

In fairness, originally the bit where i listed dps had a "(me)" next to the fury warrior bit, i thought that seemed a bit obnoxious, since anyone remotely interested could click the armory link in my signature to check which character was mine, so i edited it out a few minutes later. So sue me for being a little proud of having done well :3

[bals]

As for my first post, what exactly do you get out of looking at Ultraxion logs? You can see the amount of dps someone used to kill it? Basic math can tell you that. I can see it being helpful still, but the main point of them posting these logs is very clearly to brag about how good they are. Ultraxion threads have way more logs posted in it than any other fight, and logs are probably the least helpful on this fight out of them all.

skill usage break down, cooldown usage, dps/hps comparisons, can compare armories between characters. (hey our rogues only pull 5 dps! how is this rogue pulling 10! he has the same gear! why did they use awesome cooldown 1 at time 2?!)
and logs are probably most useful on this fight since there aren't really any gimicks, just straight up healing and dpsing

[ananoon]

Well of course if Bloodlust won't last the full length of time you wouldn't want to use it later on. Assuming the boss has enough health that sub 20% will last 40 seconds, then there's no way it would be better not to do that with a normal class makeup.

The feedback problem they're talking about is more subtle than that. Increasing the dps during the execute phase shortens the execute phase, sort of negating the benefit. Regardless, the point is that at the start of the fight, the whole raid benefits maximally because of prepot, and everyone's CDs being available. There's also some math there showing scaling with multiplicative vs. additive buffs that's very interesting.

As for my first post, what exactly do you get out of looking at Ultraxion logs? You can see the amount of dps someone used to kill it? Basic math can tell you that. I can see it being helpful still, but the main point of them posting these logs is very clearly to brag about how good they are. Ultraxion threads have way more logs posted in it than any other fight, and logs are probably the least helpful on this fight out of them all.

If all you look at is the dps then you're right, there's nothing useful. However, these logs contain a wealth of information that are much deeper than the dps meters. A really useful thing to look at is the various buffs on people over time. It's particularly useful to look at them on the tanks in this fight. It's also useful to see what the damage taken looks like over time, and when it becomes unhealable; what the cast sequence of the healers look like; whatt kind of damage soakers are taking when their CDs are used right ...

Whenever we bump up against a wall in our progression, and I hear from a healer or dps something isn't possible, I find looking through kill logs from other guilds to provide me with a wealth of information. You just have to know how to look.

[Dracodraco]

Something you're forgetting about bloodlust is, that while it gives a feedback effect towards the end if used during execute (where it shortens the execute time, thus lowering dps because of it), is that it also has the same effect if used OUT of execute (thus meaning if used at start, you will get to execute quicker, thus BOOSTING your dps as you will spend more time in that phase). So bloodlust should be used at the start on any non-gimmick encounter like Zon'ozz or Hagara, or when you need it later on for things like Yorsahj's german combo.

[Dangless]

I would use it at the start. No Fading lights until the first Hour, which gives everyone the full use out of bloodlust.

[Deleted]

When you pull the boss your healers should go in the zone, and then use bloodlust outside. This will make the DPS get more burst in the start, without healers getting sated debuff. Then Bloodlust at the end for the healers, since it's VERY hard to heal the last % of the fight.

[Dorfie]

Lusting it at the start is always better no matter what executes you may have. Everyones procs and cooldowns sync up perfectly and there is no fading light to worry about.

By the way. Your bear has 4 set and you can abuse it hard on this fight.

Pop at as soon as the fight starts, after the first hour, after the third hour and 40 seconds before you think the boss will be dead (around 4:40 for our group).

It lasts 40 seconds and has a 90 second CD due to thralls buff.

With rotated raid CDs at the start (which came back at the end) I was able to solo heal until the 3 minute mark as a holy priest without getting the red crystal, and our other healer was able to pop out 2 million damage.

[Sokaris84]

Lusting at the start helps you reach the execute phase quicker. Unless the extreme majority of your raid has a 35% execute (do you raid with 4 frost dk's and 4 fire mages?) then it is never better to lust in execute range, unless there is a mechanic in which the boss does increased damage at this time (ie. morchok) or he takes increased damage at this time (ie. zon'ozz).