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  1. #1
    Pandaren Monk Maarius's Avatar
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    GW2: more hardcore dungeons than any other mmo

    This is a post I wrote as commentary to the latest gamebreaker.tv video about endgame. It's based on knowledge we gathered so far from the game. I wanted to share this with you.




    GW 2 will have more endgame-dungeons than any other mmo. Let me explain why:

    1. Dungeons in GW2 have a max. dungeon level. If you visit a lv.30 dungeon as a level 70 character, your character will get scaled down to the max.-dungeon-level in this dungeon (-> character scales to lv.30.)

    2.) In GW2 skills can't be bought at a vendor like in other mmos. You have to beat a skill challenge (which are hidden all over the world) to get skillpoints. With those you can buy your skills, when you have unlocked all your empty skillslots (3 utility skillslots and 1 elite skillslot aren't unlocked at first).

    3.) ...why this is important: As a lv.80 player your skillpool is bigger. (e.g. all 20 utility skills), but this doesn't mean that those are more powerful. A level 30 character can have bought 3 utility skills which are a good choice for dungeon30.

    4.) So it only makes sense: all of them:
    -) the level 30 player
    -) the level 80 player (downscaled to "effective level 30")
    have the same the same endgame-hardcore difficult level for this lv.30 explorable mode dungeon.
    The lv.80 player has a bigger pool to choose his skills from, but these aren't superior. (not when he is downscaled).


    --> so all dungeons are hardcore/endgame-dungeons.
    --> all dungeons will stay hardcore/endgame-dungeons, even with new expansions.


    do them in any order you want. There are no gear-restrictions for dungeons/ for anything in the game.


    there will be added dungeons later. Each dungeon is made highly repeatable. There are 3 unique paths in each explorable mode dungeon with specific bosses, a lot of optional bosses who spawn randomly, and a lot of random dynamic events in those dungeons as well. An example was a hidden cave which got opened and somehow you could summon a huge ghostarmy which helped you defeating a strong boss.

    8 dungeons at release means 8x3 = 24 different highly repeatable very hard dungeons. You can't outgear dungeons. They will stay hard forever.




    Imagine the epic battle against Illidan. Today this encounter is nothing near as epic as it was a couple of years ago. Now think of it:



    Illidan in GW2:
    You are a Cataplayer (lv.85) who never experienced Illidan. You go back to the Black Temple. Now your character, your stats etc. get scaled to the max. dungeon level 70. You have the same hard dungeon run someone had a few years ago.

    furthermore: you got the Warclaive of Azzinoth. It is lv.70. No problem, use a transmutation stone and turn it into a lv.85 weapon. Epic!

    (yes, there are tokens for weapons in GW2-dungeons. But we actually don't know if there are/aren't any cosmetic/non cosmetic rare drops from bosses/normal enemies inside those dungeons. We only know that you won't have to grind for weapons you need. So this part of weapon-drop is speculation)





    Don't forget: Explorable mode dungeons in GW2 are hard. Everyone who played them would confirm this.




    here some clips from the beta: story mode (normal mode dungeon)

    note: this isn't even the hard exploration mode

    the best version by far from Mike B. (Tap repeatedly)


    an other guy who only knew skill 1 and fire attunement... should have played the tutorial


    and a few crazy guys (Yogcast) who rush into danger. A bit overchallenged. Guys: watch video 1 from Mike B.

    Last edited by Maarius; 2012-03-06 at 03:14 PM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Maarius View Post
    <Snip> .
    Great thread as always Maarius! Thanks, this will hopefully help players who don't know how the PvE will work

  3. #3
    I can't wait for this!!!! =D

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  4. #4
    This game will be killer.

    I know it wont be a wow killer because it wont appeal to the small minded players that consumed WoW over the years..but whew..it's going to be something amazing.

  5. #5
    So why should i do a dungeon more than once, when gear doesnt matter?

    Grinding gear is one of the biggest factors to mmos, u want to get stronger over time, get your best items/sets...
    People complain about raids, and still do them, cause they want the loots.

    As many pro aspects this feature has, it has as many negatives.

    I'm not complaining, everything that makes WoW better i support. But its not the end of all problems ;D
    Last edited by Genju; 2012-01-24 at 05:42 PM.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by iCandy View Post
    This game will be killer.

    I know it wont be a wow killer because it wont appeal to the small minded players that consumed WoW over the years..but whew..it's going to be something amazing.
    http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Skill

    And yes I am also looking forward to the game, aslong as they keep their backbone and keep the content at an enjoyable difficulty (i.e. one that is really hard). That includes questing difficulty too, nothing worse than having a mindless fuckstorm of awesome quests that are completely ruined by 0 difficulty lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Genju View Post
    So why should i do a dungeon more than once, when gear doesnt matter?

    Grinding gear is one of the biggest factors to mmos, u want to get stronger over time, get your best items/sets...

    People complain about raids, and still do them, cause they want the loots
    They drop tokens, which are used to buy gear from vendors. Also rare items, achievements and experience.

  8. #8
    Epic!
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    Sounds brilliant.

    Back to hard mode dungeon farming in guild wars!
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  9. #9
    This is were gear inflation really hits home. My most fun time raiding was in Ulduar 10 man and i never return to old raids because i like to remember them as they once were which was a challenge. Not this free loot zergfest all old content has become.

    WoW and any other game trying to use the WoW model for gear inflation needs to rethink what they are going to do. GW2 is getting it right. If WoW put in a system where item lvl and player lvl got scaled to the dungeon level i bet they would gain alot more players as their would be 3 expansions worth of endgame + vanilla rather than just 1 patch worth of endgame. And what i just said is the key everytime WoW releases a patch they trivialize the rest of the great game. GW2 wont do that and i cant wait to play it hopefully for years to come.

    Quote Originally Posted by Genju View Post
    So why should i do a dungeon more than once, when gear doesnt matter?
    Grinding gear is one of the biggest factors to mmos, u want to get stronger over time, get your best items/sets...
    People complain about raids, and still do them, cause they want the loots.
    As many pro aspects this feature has, it has as many negatives.
    You will run a dungeon more than once because just like in WoW 1 token doesnt buy you a full set. Grinding gear is only a factor because those MMO's put an emphasis on "Gear = Better player" in the fact that every new piece of gear you get makes your character better at his role. GW2 on the other hand makes it so player skill determines wither a player is good or not.
    Last edited by Zeek Daniels; 2012-01-24 at 05:45 PM.

  10. #10
    Really looking forward to this.
    With the holy trinity gone the individual player skill will truly shine.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Genju View Post
    So why should i do a dungeon more than once, when gear doesnt matter?

    Grinding gear is one of the biggest factors to mmos, u want to get stronger over time, get your best items/sets...
    People complain about raids, and still do them, cause they want the loots.

    As many pro aspects this feature has, it has as many negatives.

    I'm not complaining, everything that makes WoW better i support. But its not the end of all problems ;D
    Fun? The challenge?

    This is why a lot of people are excited about this game. Because it ISN'T just about getting gear ... some folks enjoy having fun or being challenged, not getting new shinies.

  12. #12
    Now this might not be the right thread for such a question, but it's bugging the hell out of me: How exactly does death works?

    Yes, I know you end in the down state, and people can save you while your are in the down state, but I have forgotten if they can save you after your "dead"? I guess not, but I would like to get it confirmed.

    However, this isn't the important bit. The important bits is, that when your dead and need to choose a waygate to ress up at, what can you do if you don't have any money? (pretty sure it costs money to ress at a waygate, or am I misinformed?). Also, in a dungeon, where do you end when you are dead? at the nearest waygate, the start of the dungeon, or another place?
    Belief can become reality!

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Genju View Post
    So why should i do a dungeon more than once, when gear doesnt matter?

    Grinding gear is one of the biggest factors to mmos, u want to get stronger over time, get your best items/sets...
    People complain about raids, and still do them, cause they want the loots.

    As many pro aspects this feature has, it has as many negatives.

    I'm not complaining, everything that makes WoW better i support. But its not the end of all problems ;D
    You do get new gear, but cosmetically you can purchase certain items that allows you to alter you appearance to lower level dungeon loot if you want. (I think you can choose to purchase these items with real money or grind them, I really cant remember but I'm sure someone will chime in with the answer).

    Eitherway, you do get better armor as you progress, but more important is skill choice - what skills you take in for what battles. Alongside that PVP is on a level playing field no matter your level or gear, which is much better.

    And also - grinding gear is one of the biggest factor in an MMO like WoW - so they can keep you paying to play. When there is no sub costs you get attracted to a complex and engaging experience with friends that isn't about time consumption - it's about skill and fun, competition and exploration, not grinding and arbirtrary caps on how much you can grind in order to milk how long content lasts for you and take your money.

    So while I agree, grinding can be a great time killer, it is also a great money waster - and in WoW more so than anything, the only reason wow changed from an epic grind to an arbirtrarily gated method is because they realised that they could pass off the system and not lose money in the process. They could stop those who play too much from getting so far ahead while keeping them playing and slowing down how fast they can complete content - while letting those who complain about those speeding ahead also stay at that same level. - i.e. daily quests (and a cap), dungeons and raids (with lockouts), professions with caps on how much you can progress per day etc etc.

    I am happy to move away from those silly, and very pathetic systems of arbitrarily extending content and moving towards a game I can choose to play when I want to play and not play when I don't want to without incurring any extra charge or wasting my money by completing content or by being prevented from completing content.

    ---------- Post added 2012-01-24 at 05:54 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstorm View Post
    Now this might not be the right thread for such a question, but it's bugging the hell out of me: How exactly does death works?

    Yes, I know you end in the down state, and people can save you while your are in the down state, but I have forgotten if they can save you after your "dead"? I guess not, but I would like to get it confirmed.

    However, this isn't the important bit. The important bits is, that when your dead and need to choose a waygate to ress up at, what can you do if you don't have any money? (pretty sure it costs money to ress at a waygate, or am I misinformed?). Also, in a dungeon, where do you end when you are dead? at the nearest waygate, the start of the dungeon, or another place?
    You spawn at a certain location nearby (like a graveyard) and can return to battle from there. (that is how I know it though if this has changed someone is welcome to correct me).
    Quote Originally Posted by Lugo Moll View Post
    Consider this philosophical question: If Blizz fails, but noone is there to see it. Will there still be QQ?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Genju View Post
    So why should i do a dungeon more than once, when gear doesnt matter?

    Grinding gear is one of the biggest factors to mmos, u want to get stronger over time, get your best items/sets...
    People complain about raids, and still do them, cause they want the loots.
    Gear DOES matter. There just isn't an endless stat increase with every patch. People will still want the most prestige and/or newest gear. Some because they like the new look, many because they want to show off their skill/dedication. The gear will also have different (and possibly more optimal) stats, just not an overall increase which makes your old gear completely useless in any case. And you definitely don't get that gear by doing the dungeon once, but doing the ''same'' dungeon more than once isn't as bad as you might be used to due to DE's etc. in dungeons.

    This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

  15. #15
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arrowstorm View Post
    Now this might not be the right thread for such a question, but it's bugging the hell out of me: How exactly does death works?

    Yes, I know you end in the down state, and people can save you while your are in the down state, but I have forgotten if they can save you after your "dead"? I guess not, but I would like to get it confirmed.

    However, this isn't the important bit. The important bits is, that when your dead and need to choose a waygate to ress up at, what can you do if you don't have any money? (pretty sure it costs money to ress at a waygate, or am I misinformed?). Also, in a dungeon, where do you end when you are dead? at the nearest waygate, the start of the dungeon, or another place?
    After you pass the "fight for survival" stage and are dead dead, you can either wait for someone to resurrect you, or you can respawn at the nearest waypoint. If you're out of cash I *assume* you'd be able to do it for free.

    Obviously as we haven't seen inside dungeons yet we can't be completely sure, but in GW1 it used a series of checkpoints along the dungeon path where you would resurrect at the most recent one if you wiped.

    EDIT:
    According to the wiki:
    To help navigate the dungeon, waypoints are in place as they are around the world and are available for use should a player or party be defeated. Waypoints may be found at the start of a dungeon, with new waypoints opening upon the completion of major objectives.
    So same basic system as GW1.

  16. #16
    Pandaren Monk Maarius's Avatar
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    Waypoints may be found at the start of a dungeon, with new waypoints opening upon the completion of major objectives.
    oh didn't know that - seems they must be pretty big then. You live and learn.

  17. #17
    Brewmaster Neglesh's Avatar
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    I'm okay with this.

    Nah, this is a good thread so well done

  18. #18
    Bloodsail Admiral MKing's Avatar
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    Sounds amazing, ALSO while we are speaking of dungeons.. Anet said EVERY single dungeon will have an opening cinematic, here's the first one..

    SPOILERS

    [video=youtube;-rgNxFkQW4A]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-rgNxFkQW4A[/video]

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Genju View Post
    So why should i do a dungeon more than once, when gear doesnt matter?

    Grinding gear is one of the biggest factors to mmos, u want to get stronger over time, get your best items/sets...
    People complain about raids, and still do them, cause they want the loots.

    As many pro aspects this feature has, it has as many negatives.

    I'm not complaining, everything that makes WoW better i support. But its not the end of all problems ;D
    Gear does matter, the stats are not all the same. There are 4 stats you focus on and each piece of gear has a different ratio of stats. You are still grinding out the best gear possible, just you can't out gear the dungeons is all.
    Pokemon FC: 4425-2708-3610

  20. #20
    Bloodsail Admiral MKing's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mif View Post
    SNIPE
    I'm not too sure but i believe they said if you're out of money you will instead be sent to a central waypoint for the zone your in or something like that.

    You will also always be able to choose that central way-point anytime you die without costing money.

    I believe this was part of the gamescon footage.
    Last edited by MKing; 2012-01-25 at 05:54 PM.

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