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  1. #41
    Stood in the Fire Vlad Morbius's Avatar
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    When I played WoW, the whole idea of predetermined roles and the ease in which a lot of the encounters were played out was mind numbingly boring to me. Make people responsible for all facets of their own character in an encounter, (DPS, Healing, and Agro) then and only then will you get a true measure of a player's skill. This also makes for a much more interesting encounter, and adds a much greater variety to each encounter giving it better replay value and keeps it relatively fresh longer.

  2. #42
    I'd really like to hear about some specific GW1 encounters and what made them fun. I need to know ArenaNet is capable of delivering that. Anybody?

  3. #43
    Brewmaster
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    From what i heard, GW1 was a much more polished in its PvP then its PvE(alot of people said the pve was good as well), so i dont know if Anet have done many good bosses in GW1, but i think from how well designed most world bosses, and quest bosses have been,dungeon boss, that they would have spent much more time on should be very good, but we can never know until next month.

  4. #44
    There wasn't really anything extraordinary about GW boss encounters. They basically just hit harder than normal mobs plus they added some extra things like rolling boulders of death, lots of Rit spirits (Duncan the Black), stuff like that. They were a bit different I suppose in the way the game was designed, without a holy trinity (although they had a three line trinity of sorts). GW2 will just take that further I suppose.

    One thing in GW is that you couldn't overpower any encounter with gear like you can in most other games.

  5. #45
    Stood in the Fire MissCleo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omlech View Post
    I was basing it off of that very post there, it sounds like something they'd say because it fits with the design. So I have no reason to believe it's fake or anything, as for a source it's so hard to say as I'm sure you're well aware that there's SO many sources concerning GW2 that it makes it EXTREMELY hard to keep track of them all.
    Found it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7r_oA...ailpage#t=488s

    When you have that system [a trinity system] the way you tend to play is that you'll approach every situation exactly the same. You'll say "This is what this situation is; we're going to enforce this thing, this way that we play onto the situation." And instead, what we wanted in Guild Wars 2 was to sort of live in the moment where, "okay, things have gone horribly wrong, let's react to it. Now that thing's doing this, let's react to it."
    Last edited by MissCleo; 2012-01-26 at 07:18 PM.

  6. #46
    one other main drawback to the trinity modle not mentioned yet in this thread is it not only locks you into specific roles in a fight but locks your group into needing specific people to show up. if your main tank does not show up some night and you dont have a spare on the bench the whole raid falls apart. whats worse because most encounters require at most 2 tanks there is little incentive to maintain a deep bench of tanks as they wont be doing much most nights. Its sadly much easier for a raid to pull in an undergeared or inexperienced DPS and cover for the lack than to do the same with the tank. with a dps the rest can push just a bit harder if enrage is too close but if a tank just goes squish the healers cant just push harder to save him and will just run out of mana if they do.

    my last wow raid died a slow death after we'd been togeather for nearly a year. First the other tank had a work change and couldnt make thursday nights. no problem we had more nights on the calendar than we needed, we just pushed harder on the other nights or saved 1 tank fights for thursday. Then 2 of our healers started not being able ot make sunday and we lost another raid night. this continued on till nearly the only nights all 10 of us could show up was monday and tuesday and even monday was spoty. we frequently had 9 people avalible every night but were always missing 1 critical slot in the tank/healer side of the trinity. you cant maintain a bench cause nobody wants to be the guy called in only once a week. you can try to have nonraiders around you pull in but they may not be on the nights you need them and there may be a reason they dont raid. Either way the ridged system screws the rest of the group over when 1 person cant make it that night.

    Who is John Galt?

  7. #47
    So here's a video of a large boss in Guild Wars 2.



    I'm concerned, however, because from what I'm seeing here, this dragon is big, scary, and intimidating, but ultimately helpless. At no point did I feel that the players were in danger of "losing," even when the person playing the demo was dying - that just looked like good ol' fashioned stupidity. There was no chaos factor, no excitement, just a bunch of people shooting things at a dragon that you'd have to be an idiot to get killed by.

    This remains my biggest skepticism about Guild Wars 2, and would love for someone to prove me wrong on this.

  8. #48
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrage View Post
    So here's a video of a large boss in Guild Wars 2.



    I'm concerned, however, because from what I'm seeing here, this dragon is big, scary, and intimidating, but ultimately helpless. At no point did I feel that the players were in danger of "losing," even when the person playing the demo was dying - that just looked like good ol' fashioned stupidity. There was no chaos factor, no excitement, just a bunch of people shooting things at a dragon that you'd have to be an idiot to get killed by.

    This remains my biggest skepticism about Guild Wars 2, and would love for someone to prove me wrong on this.
    All I can really say to this is that it was a demo where A-Net wanted to show off what kind of encounters and mechanics they'll have. Because of it's nature of being a Demo with a number of testers that only get like 40 minutes to play, they couldn't have it so hard that people were beating their faces against a wall of a game they've never had time to play before.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  9. #49
    The Lightbringer Rivehn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blznsmri View Post
    All I can really say to this is that it was a demo where A-Net wanted to show off what kind of encounters and mechanics they'll have. Because of it's nature of being a Demo with a number of testers that only get like 40 minutes to play, they couldn't have it so hard that people were beating their faces against a wall of a game they've never had time to play before.
    This, Its no fun spending 20 mins in a demo wiping because you don't understand how to play yet.

  10. #50
    As others have said, the big elite encounters have all been toned down for demo purposes. ANet has said countless times that they wiped a lot when playing their big boss encounters and dungeons. When a small event boss can one shot people, you can be sure elite bosses will crush people into the ground.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrage View Post
    This remains my biggest skepticism about Guild Wars 2, and would love for someone to prove me wrong on this.
    Supposedly, the demo was a simplified version so that they could show it off in the 30-40 mins ppl had to play on a convention floor.

    This is purely speculation on my end now: But if you watch the video with keen awareness of how the developers describe their encounters, it seems as though DEs boss battles are more objective than mechanics orientated. In that demo video we can see threads of players possibly having to collect items to power up cannons (devs said this is a goal), a few areas around the map that might need to be defended against adds (bos spawns them), players jumping in turrets, a few minor adds around the area impeding progress (fingers of Tequalt), etc.

    The suggestion is more that one is playing an event. Such as say, some of the elite Onslaughts/DEs of Rift that have multi staged objectives to bring down a big bad.

    We can also see the dragon can be hit directly & has his own attacks, though the encounter plays out much differently than um, Nefarion or Sindragosa by comparison. Which are reliant on a very tight understanding of what is essentially a puzzle.
    Last edited by Fencers; 2012-01-27 at 03:09 AM.

  12. #52
    Do we know for a fact that these encounters are intentionally nerfed for the show floor? Anyone have a source for that?

  13. #53
    We only have the word of Arena.net. Which you can take from that what you will. They are trying to sell a video game after all.

  14. #54
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrage View Post
    Do we know for a fact that these encounters are intentionally nerfed for the show floor?
    Yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thrage View Post
    Anyone have a source for that?
    Still looking.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  15. #55
    I am Murloc! Mif's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fencers View Post
    DE boss battles are more objective than mechanics orientated. In that demo video we can see threads of players possibly having to collect items to power up cannons (devs said this is a goal), a few areas around the map that might need to be defended against adds (boss spawns them), players jumping in turrets, a few minor adds around the area impeding progress (fingers of Tequalt), etc.

    The suggestion is more that one is playing an event.
    A very good point (that needs to be made more often).

  16. #56
    One of total biscuts video's he went to that encounter (while interviewing the dev) and it was just him and a few other random folks that had wandered in there and they had no chance of defeating the encounter. I dont remember if it was that vid or another one but it was said that many of the sucessful tequatl videos not only had demo players but a significant number of internal testers loged in from the office helping out and effectivly carrying the demo folks.

    Who is John Galt?

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Merendel View Post
    One of total biscuts video's he went to that encounter (while interviewing the dev) and it was just him and a few other random folks that had wandered in there and they had no chance of defeating the encounter. I dont remember if it was that vid or another one but it was said that many of the sucessful tequatl videos not only had demo players but a significant number of internal testers loged in from the office helping out and effectivly carrying the demo folks.
    I think I found it.


  18. #58
    Scarab Lord Blznsmri's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thrage View Post
    I think I found it.

    vid
    Yup, I was looking for the specific time to tell ya so you wouldn't have to sit through all 17 minutes of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by SW:TOR
    Jokerseven - Kinetic Combat Shadow - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Ce'lia - Combat Sentinel - Praxeum - Canderous Ordo
    Sentinel PVE Basics for the two Specs that matter

  19. #59
    Brewmaster Neglesh's Avatar
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    Why would you want to be sitting in one of the main cities for an hour waiting for that 1 tank to be logged on to do a certain instance? It bloody sucks and causes loads of issues.

    Instead of being called a 'baddie' (I f^*king despise that term), you are held responsible for your own actions and deaths in dungeons which is far better than blaming the healer, dps or tank.

    I can understand it will be hard to get your head around, but the 'Holy Trinity' system is pretty shit and you definitely don't need it to make encounters fun, entertaining and engaging.

    EDIT: In addition, the mechanics of combat are different than any other MMO at the moment. Therefore, GW2's combat doesn't heavily rely on the trinity system, and instead uses the functions such as self heal, dodging and weapon switching.

  20. #60
    I never waited more than 20 mins for a dungeon queue. :P

    More seriously, the trinity class system works just fine. Though that system was never truly suited to casual players of MMOs as Warcraft attracted. Keep in mind, originally MMOs were brutal and very demanding games. Death was harsh and depending on the MMO/Shard, wiped out months (years) of progress. You didn't just go raiding with any Sally Standsinfire and if you did, the causal players unwilling to put 6 hours into a single boss fight didn't really last long in deep progression.

    One of the great innovations of Warcraft aside from speed (or better phrased, rapidity) was broadness by ease of play. Keep that totality in mind always when talking about game systems.

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