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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Zeek Daniels View Post
    I really enjoyed Baldurs gate 2 which had co-op and didnt require tanks or heals. Dont think that youll be breezing through content in GW2 i saw a video where a bunch of lvl 20's it looked like got annilated buy an open world Dynamic Event with what looked like a huge tiger and a bunch of centaurs.
    I didn't play BG2 but I did play Icewind Dale, which is very similar to your vaporators in most respects (I'm sorry, I'm still mourning SWTOR), and it seemed to me like that game was primarily about crowd control. Let things run wild and you all die. It was a pretty good system.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Autumnqt View Post
    I've always enjoyed the idea behind 'Faction Champs' back in ToC, but I never really enjoyed the implementation of it. I feel the Trinity held back the potential of the fight.

    In other words, I would love to see that idea in one of GW2's dungeons.
    The princess fight in Magisters Terrace from TBC was probably my favorite encounter of all WoW. It played more like a pvp encounter than anything else. You couldn't tank or healbot. Everyone had to do something whether it was cc, snare, or whatever. I loved it. Unfortunately not many did, I remember a lot of crying about it and I think that shaped the developers mind in not designing pve like that again.

    Anyway, I look to GW2 to have a whole game of encounters like that.

  3. #23
    I think ANet said it best (paraphrasing) "You know how trinity based fights are only fun when something goes wrong? That's the basis of our entire combat system."

    An example of this for me was when Cata just came out, I was tanking on my Pally with friends and we were in Stonecore doing Ozruk(heroic) and for whatever reason people died one by one, I think I solo'd the last 5% or so on my own and it was exhilarating because I had to do it myself and there was no one there to rely on. I had to manage my skills and use them at the right times in order to not die. It's everything GW2's combat system is, but ALL THE TIME.
    Last edited by omlech; 2012-01-25 at 01:38 AM.

  4. #24
    Stood in the Fire MissCleo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by omlech View Post
    I think ANet said it best (paraphrasing) "You know how trinity based fights are only fun when something goes wrong? That's the basis of our entire combat system."
    YES. This is what I was thinking of the other day when I wrote this in another thread:

    I forget where I heard it, but I remember something about how Arenanet wanted the combat in dungeons to sort of inhabit that space in a traditional trinity MMO when the shit hits the fan, where a tank or healer dies and the rest of the party is having to kite, and use CDs, and heal, and do more than just stand there going through their dps rotation. Like the last 2% on a tough progression boss in WoW when the tank goes down, and the hunters are having to hit distracting shot and pop deterrence, healers are having to throw up DoTs, and everyone who can is having to taunt the boss back and forth while squeezing out what DPS they can. Obviously in GW2 this won't just be a few seconds of "oh shit" before a wipe or a skin-of-your-teeth kill, but will be sustainable over the course of the encounter. The professions are designed to have this utility, and to coordinate in such a way.

    I know this doesn't really add anything new to the discussion, but I remember that idea sticking with me, that the dungeon combat in GW2 is going to live in that reactive, dynamic space most trinity systems only encounter if shit goes sideways.
    Do you know where it was Arenanet originally made that point? I couldn't find it, but I love that idea.

  5. #25
    The Lightbringer Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    The princess fight in Magisters Terrace from TBC was probably my favorite encounter of all WoW. It played more like a pvp encounter than anything else. You couldn't tank or healbot. Everyone had to do something whether it was cc, snare, or whatever. I loved it. Unfortunately not many did, I remember a lot of crying about it and I think that shaped the developers mind in not designing pve like that again.

    Anyway, I look to GW2 to have a whole game of encounters like that.
    People complained about that fight because it demanded that certain crowd control classes were present in order to even do it to begin with, there was no way you could ever do that fight without 3 CC's available for three of the adds, and the other two were almost pushing it without a 4th. I remember wiping on that crappy dungeon because people lacked the CC to keep 3 of them locked down, and if one ever broke it would wipe because they would literally murder a player the instant they touched them.

    That design was too stringent and restricting to be a viable option for future bosses, it demanded certain classes be present in order for the encounter to even be completed. Yea, it was fun, but then after running it a second time it was a bitch since you didn't always have the same group to run with when you ran the dungeon another time.

    God forbid you let the engineer, mage, or shaman loose, they fucked over alot of healers in my day.
    And should he be a prophet of It's coming, he shall be cast out by his kin and his peers, for they cannot comprehend and fear the end of the corrupt empire. - Unknown, 3/1/2012
    I am Lothaeryn, Dragonborn of Nirn and Paladin of Azeroth. Hear my voice and tremble... Bask in my radiance and be inspired...
    For I am the Hand of Dawn, and justice shall be done by my shout and by my blade.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Lothaeryn View Post
    People complained about that fight because it demanded that certain crowd control classes were present in order to even do it to begin with, there was no way you could ever do that fight without 3 CC's available for three of the adds, and the other two were almost pushing it without a 4th. I remember wiping on that crappy dungeon because people lacked the CC to keep 3 of them locked down, and if one ever broke it would wipe because they would literally murder a player the instant they touched them.

    That design was too stringent and restricting to be a viable option for future bosses, it demanded certain classes be present in order for the encounter to even be completed. Yea, it was fun, but then after running it a second time it was a bitch since you didn't always have the same group to run with when you ran the dungeon another time.

    God forbid you let the engineer, mage, or shaman loose, they fucked over alot of healers in my day.
    Certainly a valid point. It still was my favorite encounter. The fun part was getting players to use abilities that they never used before.

    One thing that hurts in an encounter like that in WoW and other trinity games is that depending on what class you have you were limited in the tools you could use. I think the way GW2 is designed you will never have that problem. No matter what profession you play, you will have some sort of skill or tool to help defeat the encounter.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Freehoof View Post
    YES. This is what I was thinking of the other day when I wrote this in another thread:



    Do you know where it was Arenanet originally made that point? I couldn't find it, but I love that idea.
    I was basing it off of that very post there, it sounds like something they'd say because it fits with the design. So I have no reason to believe it's fake or anything, as for a source it's so hard to say as I'm sure you're well aware that there's SO many sources concerning GW2 that it makes it EXTREMELY hard to keep track of them all.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Lothaeryn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Certainly a valid point. It still was my favorite encounter. The fun part was getting players to use abilities that they never used before.

    One thing that hurts in an encounter like that in WoW and other trinity games is that depending on what class you have you were limited in the tools you could use. I think the way GW2 is designed you will never have that problem. No matter what profession you play, you will have some sort of skill or tool to help defeat the encounter.
    If WoW had even half of the balancing that Arenanet is striving for, I would still be playing up into MoP, sadly, it doesn't seem like they even care anymore, as certain specs just get buffed constantly while a few of them are left in the dust because "they were op at one point"

    Don't ever let anyone tell you Blizzard doesn't have class bias. Bering a Former Ret pally, I cannot tell you how many times ideas were stolen and put into other classes while the spec the mechanic was designed for was left in a broken state, keeping track of the MMO class forum showed me that one. The only reason people dont see it is because they play the class that gets buffed for the most part : /

    Perfect example of that is the Gap closer Monk's are getting, Paladins have been asking for one since BC, and blizzard told us that they didn't give us one because "they wanted paladins to have a unique method of closing the gap instead of having a copy/paste version from another class"

    Double standards does not a balanced game make
    Last edited by Lothaeryn; 2012-01-25 at 01:58 AM.
    And should he be a prophet of It's coming, he shall be cast out by his kin and his peers, for they cannot comprehend and fear the end of the corrupt empire. - Unknown, 3/1/2012
    I am Lothaeryn, Dragonborn of Nirn and Paladin of Azeroth. Hear my voice and tremble... Bask in my radiance and be inspired...
    For I am the Hand of Dawn, and justice shall be done by my shout and by my blade.

  9. #29
    Paladin has been the red-headed step-class of World of Warcraft for a very long time now, it's nothing new. The problem is that paladin players hold animosity toward developers/CMs who in turn hold animosity toward paladin players. They don't like each other, regardless of how it started.

    What about in the original Guild Wars? Were there any particularly fun encounters that relied on mechanics outside the trinity? I never played it long enough to find out.

  10. #30
    There is no real +/- to encounter design with or with out a trinity centric role system. Most games don't even have such a system, so it's not like GW2 breaking form the Warcraft/EQ trinity model is a new thing or untested.

    It's totally doable. In fact, it's more uncommon in encounter design to have one guy make a boss really angry while 39 others shoot the boss.

    What about in the original Guild Wars? Were there any particularly fun encounters that relied on mechanics outside the trinity?
    Yea, all of them basically.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Thrage View Post
    Paladin has been the red-headed step-class of World of Warcraft for a very long time now, it's nothing new. The problem is that paladin players hold animosity toward developers/CMs who in turn hold animosity toward paladin players. They don't like each other, regardless of how it started.

    What about in the original Guild Wars? Were there any particularly fun encounters that relied on mechanics outside the trinity? I never played it long enough to find out.
    Tanking could be done is GW1 but its was one of the most inefficient ways of doing things. The game is mostly about heals and CC. Lots of knock downs, repositioning, interrupts, while your monk keeps you alive.

    It was a and still is a lot of fun

  12. #32
    The way tanking worked in GW1 was far more intelligent than artificial threat. In a philosophical design sense, the essence of tanking is one of control. It was almost purely that in GW1 with actual CC, spot mitigation and positioning as the actual factors of "tanking".

    I don't mind fake threat in games like Warcraft/EQ. But those are much simpler means of control.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Balfire View Post
    Tanking could be done is GW1 but its was one of the most inefficient ways of doing things. The game is mostly about heals and CC. Lots of knock downs, repositioning, interrupts, while your monk keeps you alive.

    It was a and still is a lot of fun
    Indeed, there's interrupts in everyday explorable areas in GW1 that require faster reaction times than most of WoW's raid bosses.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by omlech View Post
    I think ANet said it best (paraphrasing) "You know how trinity based fights are only fun when something goes wrong? That's the basis of our entire combat system."
    that's such a ridiculous statement

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    that's such a ridiculous statement
    No it's emphatically not a ridiculous statement.
    It completely demonstrates how tired and mundane the trinity system has become...and frankly how tedious encounters have become because developers have continued to employ this philosophy.
    The most boring encounters are when everying feels like it's already completed...and u just need to do the prescribed motions.
    This is what that quote is saying.

    Trinty based tactics are predictible. By removing them you open up a whole new basis for engaging combat. A bit of chaos makes for engaging gameplay.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Enosh View Post
    that's such a ridiculous statement
    I disagree. All my most memorable 5mans in WOW had to do with things going wrong. Tank/spank is so /yawn, no matter what your role is. It's way too simplistic. You can add interesting boss fight mechanics, sure, and I think that's great. But when threat is so simple - and you use it properly in a game like WOW - everything also becomes simple. And simple = boring IMHO.

    As a frost mage levelling in WOW and doing dungeons, I actually felt useful when I had to nova/sheep mobs that got away to attack the healer, for example. Or when we missed some mobs that no one saw, and then they came charging in. BUT by WOW standards, whenever that happened, we did something WRONG. I thought it was fun, but apparently the WOW designers thought that such things shouldn't be happening if you are playing "correctly". Personally, I think that's a TERRIBLE design philosophy when you create encounters where fun = wrong, boring = right.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by omlech View Post
    I think ANet said it best (paraphrasing) "You know how trinity based fights are only fun when something goes wrong? That's the basis of our entire combat system."
    I fully agree with this for similar reasons. About a month ago I had to kite Venoxis in Zul'Gurub with just myself and the healer alive making sure I didn't mistime Blink and other cooldowns for two snake transformations. That short fight that was released two patches ago gave me more of a rush then at least half the fights in Dragon Soul. I'm looking forward to action style combat without having to rely on a single role that can heavily affect the outcome of a battle.

  18. #38
    High Overlord Mad hat man's Avatar
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    I think fights will be more interesting since everyone are able to jump in, take damage for a while, jump out and let someone else tak damage while you heal yourself up, or casts a thing that will heal everyone. Also that everyone are able to control enemies will be pretty awesome.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    The princess fight in Magisters Terrace from TBC was probably my favorite encounter of all WoW. It played more like a pvp encounter than anything else. You couldn't tank or healbot. Everyone had to do something whether it was cc, snare, or whatever. I loved it. Unfortunately not many did, I remember a lot of crying about it and I think that shaped the developers mind in not designing pve like that again.

    Anyway, I look to GW2 to have a whole game of encounters like that.
    I was playing my hunter back then and unless I was playing with people that really knew me it was hard as hell to get a group for heroic magister's terrace because most hunters were incapable of trapping properly on that fight. I remember having to use LoS to guide the targets into my trap by shooting them and then ducking behind a pillar. Once my target was trapped I would pop Rapid Fire and burn down the main target while dropping another trap and positioning myself so my mob would LoS into the second trap. The hardest part was just making sure nobody used AoE or bleeds on anything that wasn't the main target. It wasn't my favorite fight, but I did enjoy playing with a new group and getting compliments on my trapping expertise. Until you had T6 gear it was ridiculously hard to do that dungeon without 3 cc's.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by tibben View Post
    SNIP
    Similar to my tanking experience at the start of cata.
    Total nightmare as a warrior tank.
    Right...so, we have to cc half of them...but i can't use thunder clap or sunder armor for add tanking. Right. This should be fun then. Well thought out...yh, gd job.
    Equals....can't wait for GW2 and no more trinity.

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