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  1. #1
    High Overlord Zosyn's Avatar
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    Disc Stat weights for 10 man heroic DS.

    Hello,

    I was reading and most of the priests in the 25man healing guilds are reforging for a Haste/Crit build, instead of mastery. They are procing DA's almost 50% more and increasing their HPS. I was wondering if this is transferable into Heroic 10 man DS. We currently 2 heal most heroic fights and its me, A Disc Priest and a Resto druid.

    Thanks for your help,

    Ammunae

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Ammunae View Post
    Hello,

    I was reading and most of the priests in the 25man healing guilds are reforging for a Haste/Crit build, instead of mastery. They are procing DA's almost 50% more and increasing their HPS. I was wondering if this is transferable into Heroic 10 man DS. We currently 2 heal most heroic fights and its me, A Disc Priest and a Resto druid.

    Thanks for your help,

    Ammunae
    Yes, Haste / Crit is the way to go if regen is not an issue, Get your spirit at a comfortable level and stack them both hard.

  3. #3
    In a 10m raid environment you will be using a lot more PW:S in your rotation. This increases the value of mastery. On H Morchock about 44% of my healing is PW:S. H Yor about 30% is PW:S.

    You have to remember, in a 25m raid it is acceptable to stack haste and crit because you have other healers available to help pick up the slack when it comes to high burst raid damage. You do not have that luxury in a 10m raid. In a 10m raid you need to handle that burst damage on your own. That means per-shielding to increase your absorbs when big damage is coming.

    The only fight in H DS that really lends itself to a haste/crit build is H Ultra (which is what I'm working on now). Other than that it's a tossup between Haste/Mastery or Crit/Mastery. What you choose is dependent on your other healers and personal playstyle.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by lizon View Post
    In a 10m raid environment you will be using a lot more PW:S in your rotation. This increases the value of mastery. On H Morchock about 44% of my healing is PW:S. H Yor about 30% is PW:S.

    You have to remember, in a 25m raid it is acceptable to stack haste and crit because you have other healers available to help pick up the slack when it comes to high burst raid damage. You do not have that luxury in a 10m raid. In a 10m raid you need to handle that burst damage on your own. That means per-shielding to increase your absorbs when big damage is coming.

    The only fight in H DS that really lends itself to a haste/crit build is H Ultra (which is what I'm working on now). Other than that it's a tossup between Haste/Mastery or Crit/Mastery. What you choose is dependent on your other healers and personal playstyle.
    The burst damage in this tier isn't 1 hit and its done. i agree completely with having to pre-shield a lot of mechanics, as the damage is very tough. BUT the damage also lasts long enough that the throughput you gain by having haste / crit out weighs the minor increase from having a slightly bigger front end buffer. Healing when you need it.

  5. #5
    I'm running with a haste build now and im workin on the crit values 18% haste, 17% crit..... and in 10 man so far its amazing

    Take up the Atonement spec. You basically favor Smite over heal,
    Item has haste + spirit? -> reforge spirit to crit
    Item has crit + spirit? -> reforge the one that gives you most to haste (400 spirit/300crit = reforge the spirit)
    Item has Mastery -> reforge the mastery to Haste or Crit whatever is not on the item
    Gemming should be Pure int or Int+haste, pretty sure blue sockets wont be in your gear else spirit/int ones
    Enchant to INT > haste > crit with just the lavawalker on boots
    Personaly i took on glyph of holy fire and divine accuracy, Div acc is a must have, holy fire is optional....
    Obviously you run with Inner fire.
    Penance can be used offensive when its possible else just use it on the tank when it gets around 75%....
    Keep prayer of mending on CD and use Prayer of healing pre dmg and on dmg... casting it pre dmg gives an absorbtion shield

  6. #6
    High Overlord Zosyn's Avatar
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    Thanks for your posts everyone!

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by lizon View Post
    In a 10m raid environment you will be using a lot more PW:S in your rotation. This increases the value of mastery. On H Morchock about 44% of my healing is PW:S. H Yor about 30% is PW:S.

    You have to remember, in a 25m raid it is acceptable to stack haste and crit because you have other healers available to help pick up the slack when it comes to high burst raid damage. You do not have that luxury in a 10m raid. In a 10m raid you need to handle that burst damage on your own. That means per-shielding to increase your absorbs when big damage is coming.

    The only fight in H DS that really lends itself to a haste/crit build is H Ultra (which is what I'm working on now). Other than that it's a tossup between Haste/Mastery or Crit/Mastery. What you choose is dependent on your other healers and personal playstyle.
    As far as the shield spam goes yes we can spam more shields because over all we have less people to heal and will use less mana then a 25 man healer but shields don't heal they prevent, so the idea behind the haste > crit build is to heal more actual lost hp on top of preventing a crap load via shields and DA.

    Imo a disc priest is 50/50 absorb/healing you must not forget that half of your healing comes from actually healing, those who are doing almost all absorbs and no healing in a 2 healer situation are actually hurting their raid and adding more pressure on the second healer then is needed.

  8. #8
    Im actually pretty balanced between all stats, 1433 Haste rating (11.19%) 1486 Crit rating (21.85%) 1388 Mastery rating (15.74).
    Still havent got my pieces complete i will drop in mastery and gain on haste and crit more and reaching my aim of +12% haste +22% crit and ~14 mastery with around 2400 spirit.

    10man healing with a HPally majority of the time, unfortunatly no HM's yet hope tonight all the Ill people are healthy again and able to raid >.>
    Damn u FLU damn U !!!
    Last edited by DerrHans; 2012-01-25 at 02:23 PM.

    Sig made by Resentful

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    The burst damage in this tier isn't 1 hit and its done. i agree completely with having to pre-shield a lot of mechanics, as the damage is very tough. BUT the damage also lasts long enough that the throughput you gain by having haste / crit out weighs the minor increase from having a slightly bigger front end buffer. Healing when you need it.
    It it much more than just PW:S. I pop shields between PoH for high burst damage phases, no reason not to use it. Plus you have to consider with each PW:S your cast time is reduced on PoH. So you can literally maintain a constant haste buff without having to stack haste, provided that you're setup to track the Borrowed Time buff.

    Quote Originally Posted by CoolNitro View Post
    Imo a disc priest is 50/50 absorb/healing you must not forget that half of your healing comes from actually healing, those who are doing almost all absorbs and no healing in a 2 healer situation are actually hurting their raid and adding more pressure on the second healer then is needed.
    For me it's normally 50-60% from absorbs. Even if it's around 50% you have to look at your healing breakdwown. If it's all just DA then yeah sure go crit/haste. But if a large chunk if not majority of it is PW:S then you really have to seriously consider picking up Mastery because you will gain more from it.


    Quote Originally Posted by DerrHans View Post
    Im actually pretty balanced between all stats, 1433 Haste rating (11.19%) 1486 Crit rating (21.85%) 1388 Mastery rating (15.74).
    Still havent got my pieces complete i will drop in mastery and gain on haste and crit more and reaching my aim of +12% haste +22% crit and ~14 mastery with around 2400 spirit.

    10man healing with a HPally majority of the time, unfortunatly no HM's yet hope tonight all the Ill people are healthy again and able to raid >.>
    Damn u FLU damn U !!!
    My stats are around 11.2% Haste, 18.3 Mastery, and 18.62% Crit. I run with a Holy Pally healer. Course I also normally have a Dest Lock/Shadow Priest/Moonkin or all 3 at any given time. So my raid stats are around 16% haste, 23% Crit and 18 Mastery for most encounters.

    Once you get Heart of Unliving it becomes very hard to drop below 2500 spirit. I've reforged out of spirit on all of my gear and with my trinket procced I'm around 2800 still.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by lizon View Post
    In a 10m raid environment you will be using a lot more PW:S in your rotation. This increases the value of mastery. On H Morchock about 44% of my healing is PW:S. H Yor about 30% is PW:S.

    You have to remember, in a 25m raid it is acceptable to stack haste and crit because you have other healers available to help pick up the slack when it comes to high burst raid damage. You do not have that luxury in a 10m raid. In a 10m raid you need to handle that burst damage on your own. That means per-shielding to increase your absorbs when big damage is coming.

    The only fight in H DS that really lends itself to a haste/crit build is H Ultra (which is what I'm working on now). Other than that it's a tossup between Haste/Mastery or Crit/Mastery. What you choose is dependent on your other healers and personal playstyle.
    Having tried both haste/mastery and haste/crit builds in our ten man, I have also found that the haste/mst was most suitable to me and my healing partner/partners. The bolded section in particular best reflects my opinion of what is suitable for disc or not.
    Thanks to Shiri for the awesome sig <3

  11. #11
    IIRC poping shields inbetween PoH even on heavy burst phases is a sizeable hps loss. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    IIRC poping shields inbetween PoH even on heavy burst phases is a sizeable hps loss. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong.
    HPS != Keeping everyone alive on Red, Orange, Black, Green (Killing green) on H Yor. Nor does it equate to mitigating stomp damage on H Morchock, my shields absorb all of the damage from stomps.

  13. #13
    High Overlord Zosyn's Avatar
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    There is so many conflicting results - I guess I will have to test it out and get an answer! Thank you for all your help though everyone

    -Ammunae

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by lizon View Post
    HPS != Keeping everyone alive on Red, Orange, Black, Green (Killing green) on H Yor. Nor does it equate to mitigating stomp damage on H Morchock, my shields absorb all of the damage from stomps.
    ... It's less mitigation too, assuming you don't get 0 luck on crits.

    My PW:S is around 32k + ~8k shield, My PoH is around 7k per target, with a 3k shield non-crit. and 16k~ per target, with a 13k shield. across 5 targets assuming i don't crit, thats 35k and 15k in absorbs 50k in total. Assuming atleast 2 crit, which is typical for any sort of normal crit / haste stack, this goes up to 53k~ in pure healing, and 35k in absorbs (Note, it's absorbing more then a single PW:S, with only a slight increase on effective cast time)

  15. #15
    I've been running with Haste>Crit>Mastery>Spirit for a long time and it worked perfectly for the first 6 heroic bosses. Currently I'm at (raid buffed) ~29%haste, ~29%crit and 11.7 mastery. The only time I thought I could use bigger shields was Blackhorn and then again a 3-4k increase in shield probably wouldn't save anyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    IIRC poping shields inbetween PoH even on heavy burst phases is a sizeable hps loss. Someone can correct me if i'm wrong.
    It's not anymore. I think Valen on EJ had some recent Simcraft results on this. Doing a PW:S&PoH rotation provides the highest HPS but I doubt it's sustainable mana-wise.

  16. #16
    Last night in DS ive been running with 3 healers (not all fights) the other 2 healers are both alts and OS healer....
    Needless to say i alone was doing 43% of the healing.

    Smitespam is the way to go. Stacking haste and pretty much remove [heal] from your bar does wonders...
    Its all about Divine Aegis, when needed you wanna max out this mechanic, for example morchok you shield the soaker and when the feet rises you wanna shield the tank.. between those 2 shields you cast a Prayer of Healing and prayer of mending on the dps while you start casting Prayer of Healing right after your 2nd shield so; PWS dps, PoM dps, PoH, PWS tank, stompcast->prayer of healing hits right after stomp

    I was able to pretty much find ways of keeping people alive on the first 5 bosses basically said the other healers werent topping 5-6k hps
    The dps was insane enough to make sure i didnt run oom and the healers where playing in favor of me with their cooldowns.

    Smitespam is worth it in 25m if you run with at least 1 paladin and 1 druid/shaman healer. The tanks should be hotted up or have a beacon at least

    The only thing that i see what disc is not giving is a accidental lifesaver heal. When you single target cast heals and someone makes a mistake and takes too much dmg with another small dmg ability right after that a heal might not land or the heal might not be big enough to cover the stupidity of the player....

    For example when a tank hits a ping pong ball and right after that gets a melee hit when you spam heals on the tank he might even survive this however when ur spamming smite he pretty much wont get the heal to survive the 70k melee hit and just rests in pieces after that.

    I covered this after 2 wipes with a PoM and a targeted greater heal every time the ball was about to hit the boss (we use the 5-5-5 system)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    ... It's less mitigation too, assuming you don't get 0 luck on crits.

    My PW:S is around 32k + ~8k shield, My PoH is around 7k per target, with a 3k shield non-crit. and 16k~ per target, with a 13k shield. across 5 targets assuming i don't crit, thats 35k and 15k in absorbs 50k in total. Assuming atleast 2 crit, which is typical for any sort of normal crit / haste stack, this goes up to 53k~ in pure healing, and 35k in absorbs (Note, it's absorbing more then a single PW:S, with only a slight increase on effective cast time)
    You are not thinking in terms of the encounter. For the specific ppl that I target with PW:S it keeps them alive where as if I were to waste time casting another PoH they will die. Examples being soakers on H Morchock or DPS who are getting hit by adds on H Yon (I'm talking about the few times that you can actually use PoH). In a real raid environment not everyone takes the same amount of damage. Some people take more, some less. Standing there casting PoH over and over will only get people killed if you don't prioritize your targets and change your spell combination to fit the need when the raid is taking lots of damage.

    It is also grossly inefficient when you realize you are healing up ppl who don't need heals. If you want to waste mana then by all means PoH away. But if that's the case you should really just spec holy and get it over with.

    In your example you assume Casting PoH vs popping shields on everyone. Really think about that for a second. Let us assume that you have a full haste build and have PoH down to about 2 seconds. Let us further assume you crit about half the time (This most likely won't happen but just go with it). To get a 35k shield on everyone i the raid you would need to cast PoH about 5 times (assuming 7k per DA averaged out), that's 10 seconds of casting. With PW:S it takes me less than 8 seconds to achieve the same thing, that's assuming 1.5s for the ICD with .5 seconds added on for lag and latency.

    So I can achieve equal absorbs in less time. The only downside is the mana which is a non-issue for disc cause If I'm pre-shielding I should be getting a rapture proc every 12 seconds guaranteed.

    Now let us go even further. Assume you do some PoH along with some shields. This would be useful on almost any heroic fight where the raid is taking a lot of damage but 1 or 2 people are taking a bit more than anyone else. Let us say 3 PoH with 2 PW:S tossed in. Again assuming 50% crits on PoH (which won't happen) that's about 21k DA shields on everyone plus another 35k PW:S on 2 more people giving those two 56k worth of shields on them. IF you look at a comparison between PoH spam and mixing the 2 the difference becomes apparent.

    5 Poh = 175k total DA Absorb / Cast time 10 seconds
    2 PW:S + 5 PoH totals 175k total Absorbs / Cast time 9.5 seconds (with .5 seconds added for lag)

    The amount of health absorbed is identical but HOW those absorbs are distributed are not. They are now prioritized so that the 2 people who are getting hit the hardest have the larger shields that they need to survive.

    Yes I know PoH does actual healing as well, and that is important. But as Disc your priority isn't to heal up damaged after it hits. It's to prevent damage before it hits. By maximizing my absorbs and prioritizing my shields on people who need them most I can reduce the total amount of health that I need to heal up the old fashioned way once damage begins to taper off and the healers can catch up.

    As others have pointed out. It isn't a HPS loss, if anything it is a more efficient way of healing.
    Last edited by lizon; 2012-01-26 at 06:00 PM.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by hikamiro View Post
    Yes, Haste / Crit is the way to go if regen is not an issue, Get your spirit at a comfortable level and stack them both hard.
    yea agreed, dont be afraid to reforge some good chunks of spirit to boost haste/crit

  19. #19
    Iizon isn't wrong when it comes to shield spam for some encounters or abilities but you don't need to stack mastery to pull it off, for H Morchock I also shield up the 5 people in my group before each stomp and they are not likely to drop to less then 80% health if even that which is more then enough to soak the stomp and take the hit from the crystal safely, the same goes for some other encounters if you can prevent major damage spikes before they happen then you reduce the chances that something may go wrong.

    With that said though I don't stack mastery far from it, mastery is my third stat under Crit and haste. I only have 13% mastery which gives me 32k shields but even then I find shields for raid healing to be large enough to handle most major abilities. But other then H Morchock I try to reserve heavy shield usage for those I know either wont survive an ability or for those on extremely low health and beyond that once per rapture cd. From the amount of shields that I cast per fight I get on average 15% overheal from them even with the majority being cast on the tank for rapture so for me having higher amounts of mastery purely for PW:Shield would be wasted stat points.



    I actually like a Crit > haste > mastery build for 10 man heroics though I am still fine tuning my own personal caps for each stat. Most of the fights in DS and the few I have tried on heroic tend to require a hell of a lot of raid healing and not much actual focus on keeping tanks up beyond the odd shield and Greater heal to top them off so I built my class around heavy PoH spam and high crit for both extra healing and DA shields, the key for me is to even out the damage and assist our Resto druid in getting people back to being healthy while also having strong single target abilities should I need to focus on the tanks.

    So far it's been working out pretty well but I'm not totally convinced I have it right yet.


    Edit: I looked over the logs from H Morchock last week my shields over healed 25% :S even when I was solo healing my group I actually expected it to be much lower at least in low single digits.
    Last edited by CoolNitro; 2012-01-29 at 05:53 AM.

  20. #20
    High Overlord Zolvolt's Avatar
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    on 10m mastery is more important than on 25, but you can basically do whatever you want.

    Personally I stack haste to 14.89% (as close as I can) so when I have 5% raid haste + borrowed time I will have 37.5% haste. enough for the extra divine hymn or hymn of hope tick.

    Other than that I keep about 2000-2300 spirit and then I stack and even amount of mastery and crit.

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