Denial of the Armenian Genocide is now criminalized in France!

[Pert]

I have no problem being offended or causing offence (like everyone shouldn't).

To me it means the ability to talk about things as long as they don't have the ability to incite violent action against innocent parties.

Ah. Well that's not something I agree with, but thank you for explaining. There's an awful lot of speech that could incite violence, if denial of the Armenian genocide fits the bill, most anything could. I would argue that what you describe is not freedom at all.

Also, what if something inciteful is true?

Notice how basically every American in this thread sounds like a broken record with their "but but but teh Freedom of Speech!" response. Hint: you should probably educate yourself a bit on world politics before you respond to a thread about a law passed in a country in Europe. Lots of countries in Europe have laws against Holocaust/genocide denial, so this isn't some grand departure from the status quo. The U.S. is probably the only country with such absurdly permissive freedom of speech laws that they embolden, and even encourage idiots (see Westboro Baptist Church, etc.)

Many Americans take it for granted, and don't realize how much more restricted speech is in Europe.

[Urti]

Notice how basically every American in this thread sounds like a broken record with their "but but but teh Freedom of Speech!" response. Hint: you should probably educate yourself a bit on world politics before you respond to a thread about a law passed in a country in Europe. Lots of countries in Europe have laws against Holocaust/genocide denial, so this isn't some grand departure from the status quo. The U.S. is probably the only country with such absurdly permissive freedom of speech laws that they embolden, and even encourage idiots (see Westboro Baptist Church, etc.)

Cause 'Merkins shouldn't have any opinion about anything past our pendulous guts? Nice way to be an elitist, hypcritical eurosnob.

[braxx]

so... if i stand in france and say "the armenian genocide never happened" i can be arrested? how can France criminalize having an opinion.

if it does not work try with the holocaust (yes there is a law which prohibit the denial of the holocaust), it will lead you straight to prison and will become an outcast. Is there suchs law outside of France i am curious?

[Bakis]

Many Americans take it for granted, and don't realize how much more restricted speech is in Europe.

Freedom of speech isnt really restricted in Europe. 16 countries have laws against denial of the holocaust but that is about it.
Im not entirely sure what a so called minister burning the koran would have to do with free speach. If true free speach allows people to instigate hate and devide people and cause violence. Well then I am for limiting it as much as it is illegal to stand up in a full theatre and yell "FIRE, FIRE, RUN!"

Another example is why wikileaks wanted to host their servers in Europe, Sweden for example.
We have a much larger protection with that sort of freedom than the US can ever offer.

[Activi-T]

Ah. Well that's not something I agree with, but thank you for explaining. There's an awful lot of speech that could incite violence. I would argue that what you describe is not freedom at all.



Many Americans take it for granted, and don't realize how much more restricted speech is in Europe.

Freedom of speech how most people previously have discribed it is illusionary. There already exists instances of speech censorship it's just alot of it is socially engineered and not written into law. Like the types of language you use when talking to people in different situations or at different social occasions like dinner parties or weddings.

[Urti]

if it does not work try with the holocaust (yes there is a law which prohibit the denial of the holocaust), it will lead you straight to prison and will become an outcast. Is there suchs law outside of France i am curious?

Not in the States. Here you can say whatever you want really. Now if you choose to say something blatantly stupid like "The holocaust never happened" or "Hitler was framed" most reasonably intelligent americans will just assume you're brain damaged and ignore you. We like to see it as a way of tracking and quantifying stupid in the public realm. Helps us keep an eye on 'em and minimize any real damage they might cause.

[braxx]

Not in the States. Here you can say whatever you want really. Now if you choose to say something blatantly stupid like "The holocaust never happened" or "Hitler was framed" most reasonably intelligent americans will just assume you're brain damaged and ignore you. We like to see it as a way of tracking and quantifying stupid in the public realm. Helps us keep an eye on 'em and minimize any real damage they might cause.

damages like?

[Pert]

Freedom of speech isnt really restricted in Europe. 16 countries have laws against denial of the holocaust but that is about it.
Im not entirely sure what a so called minister burning the koran would have to do with free speach. If the true for of free speach allows people to instigate hate and devide people and cause violence. Well then I am for limiting it as much as it is illegal to stand up in a full theatre and yell "FIRE, FIRE, RUN!"

Compared to what Americans are used to, it is pretty restrictive. France in particular will issue fines for portraying drugs positively or for using non-French words in publications. There's the holocaust denial laws you've mentioned. Several European countries have laws on the books against flag desecration. Several have laws against "blasphemy."

The UK is arguably even worse (or better, based on your POV) than France, with laws on the books against "outraging public decency," "threatening, abusive, or insulting speech," offending "the dignity of Parliament," etc.

Also, UK courts really love "prior restraint."

Freedom of speech how most people previously have discribed it is illusionary. There already exists instances of speech censorship it's just alot of it is socially engineered and not written into law. Like the types of language you use when talking to people in different situations or at different social occasions like dinner parties or weddings.

I haven't read how others in the thread have described it, but voluntary self-censorship doesn't seem to me to be pertinent.

[ati87]

Not in the States. Here you can say whatever you want really. Now if you choose to say something blatantly stupid like "The holocaust never happened" or "Hitler was framed" most reasonably intelligent americans will just assume you're brain damaged and ignore you. We like to see it as a way of tracking and quantifying stupid in the public realm. Helps us keep an eye on 'em and minimize any real damage they might cause.

Let me rephrase what your just wrote

If you say anything about Jew related you will be shunned and become a outcast....

if you say anything Muslim related you are using your freedom of speech.....

[Sunseeker]

Let me rephrase what your just wrote

If you say anything about Jew related you will be shunned and become a outcast....

if you say anything Muslim related you are using your freedom of speech.....

Once again, if the PUBLIC doesn't like what you say they are welcome to say so, and treat you as the idiot they believe you to be.

Freedom of speech is protection FROM THE GOVERNMENT. Not from private individuals or businesses.

[Deleted]

I heard about this old thing called Freedom of Speech. It used to be pretty popular but not so much today.

Freedom of Speech was a nice lady. But she died of punditry.

Now, the only people with actual freedom of speech are those who say stuff that their particular audience revels in. But even then, because they have to satisfy the ego of their audience, one could claim, not without reason, that they don't have freedom of speech either. If they don't praise their audience's ideological choices, said audience will flock to a different media that will do...

[Taen]

Notice how basically every American in this thread sounds like a broken record with their "but but but teh Freedom of Speech!" response. Hint: you should probably educate yourself a bit on world politics before you respond to a thread about a law passed in a country in Europe. Lots of countries in Europe have laws against Holocaust/genocide denial, so this isn't some grand departure from the status quo. The U.S. is probably the only country with such absurdly permissive freedom of speech laws that they embolden, and even encourage idiots (see Westboro Baptist Church, etc.)

"Westerners complaining about human rights abuses in Chinese prisons should educate themselves on world politics, that's just the status quo in China. Stop speaking out against it."

[Rork]

The committees such as "Kara Hac / Black Cross", "Armenakan" and "Vatan Koruyuculari / Land Protectors " in Anatolia, " Hinchak " in Geneva, "Tasnak" in Tiblisi, were founded by the Armenians. Their targets were lands in the Eastern Anatolia and the union of the Ottoman Armenians.

The Armenian committees were provoked for this purpose, first they rioted in 1890 in Erzurum, afterwards they organized the Kumkapi demonstration, Kayseri, Yozgat, Corum and Merzifon events, Sasun revolt, Bab-i Ali / Sublime Porte demonstration, Zeytun and Van revolts, The raid of Osmanli Bankasi / Ottoman Bank, assassination trial to Sultan Abdülhamit, and Adana revolt in 1909. Due to the Armenian oppressions, 100 Turks in Zeytun in 1914, 3.000 Turks in Van events in 1915, and 20.000 Turks lost their lives 1914 — 1915, in Mus Events.

Armenians gave the greatest harm to the Turkish people, by the massacring them during the First World War. In this period, the Armenians spied for the Russians, they fled from their military service, by not obeying the mobilisation orders, and those Armenians who were taken under arms joining onto the Russian Army, with their arms, and they thus committed collectively the guilt of being “ treacherous to the land “. The Armenian bands that started to attack the Turkish Army and these bands have given great harm to the civilian people, as well. For example, the whole population of the Zeve village of the Van province massacred by the Armenian people without discriminating if they were women, children, or the old.


The Armenians used violence as their primary weapon not only against muslims but? also on their fellow Armenians if they didn't support or cooporate with them.

In June 1893, near the convent at Kilise, a number of Armenians were killed and accused of being ''informers''. After the the Armenians were killed by their own, the terrorists cut off their ears and nailed them above the entrance door of the convent.


GENOCIDE? Compare with what the Nazis did, and you’ll see there was blood, sweat and tears, hot war

In this case. No, I DON'T BELIEVE IN AN ARMENIAN GENOCIDE.


What you call obvious facts is not so obvious in Armenian "genocide". Unlike Holocaust you don't? have undeniable historic facts. All you have is their claims and couple of pictures. There are many discrepancies in the Armenian claims.

These are historical truths. Doesn't seem like a genocide to me, after that.

Well know if you say that in France you'll get a trial and a fine ...

[Sunseeker]

Notice how basically every American in this thread sounds like a broken record with their "but but but teh Freedom of Speech!" response. Hint: you should probably educate yourself a bit on world politics before you respond to a thread about a law passed in a country in Europe. Lots of countries in Europe have laws against Holocaust/genocide denial, so this isn't some grand departure from the status quo. The U.S. is probably the only country with such absurdly permissive freedom of speech laws that they embolden, and even encourage idiots (see Westboro Baptist Church, etc.)

Deal with it. We get enough Europeans telling us we're "doing it wrong", turnabout is fair play.

[Rork]

Notice how basically every American in this thread sounds like a broken record with their "but but but teh Freedom of Speech!" response. Hint: you should probably educate yourself a bit on world politics before you respond to a thread about a law passed in a country in Europe. Lots of countries in Europe have laws against Holocaust/genocide denial, so this isn't some grand departure from the status quo. The U.S. is probably the only country with such absurdly permissive freedom of speech laws that they embolden, and even encourage idiots (see Westboro Baptist Church, etc.)

Well they are right on this one there is no freedom of speech in france anymore, people are getting trials and ban from media for critics against Israel like its a crime against humanity and now its the armenian genocide.

If there is one thing about america that I really admire it's the first amemdement, because when your gov is telling you what you cannot talk about, that's the first step towards totalitarism.

[Event Horizon]

In a situation like this I personally think it is better to censor someone or force them to admit reality.

The human race as a whole is pretty stupid and willing to follow anyone as long as they have a convincing argument, but just because someone has a convincing argument doesn't mean they're right. Should these people have the chance to spread that message of denial and hate?

Now I understand that people shouldn’t be restricted beliefs and opinions or what they say, but come on people a dose of common sense here wouldn’t be bad thing.

Just because people have the “right” to free speech doesn’t mean they should always be able to exercise it. At what point do you step in and stop them? After 100 followers? after 100,000 followers? After a million followers? By a million followers it’s too late and that message of hate is too ingrained.

For the benefit of the many a few should be silenced.

Now of course this idea can be perverted to the benefit of a few, but, is it any worse than letting bad ideas spread without control? As a member of parliament it is your duty to ensure that ideas and speech that will greatly hinder the development of society are kept in check.

The only other alternative is to allow people to do/say whatever they want destroying society as we know it.

[Deleted]

I'm French, I and disagree with the law despite being for the recognition of the genocide.

When the legisator starts interpreting history, it's a dictatorship. It's scandalous that such a bill passed, but that was due to its topic, where nearly all french people know / and are taught that the Armenians were victims of a genocide, and that the Turcs were being dicks by not admitting it.

[Bolson13]

Notice how basically every American in this thread sounds like a broken record with their "but but but teh Freedom of Speech!" response. Hint: you should probably educate yourself a bit on world politics before you respond to a thread about a law passed in a country in Europe. Lots of countries in Europe have laws against Holocaust/genocide denial, so this isn't some grand departure from the status quo. The U.S. is probably the only country with such absurdly permissive freedom of speech laws that they embolden, and even encourage idiots (see Westboro Baptist Church, etc.)

Sorry but the US might have the westboro baptist church but free speech in the Netherlands has been the reason we now have a political party for child molesters (not that they get any seat in congress or so of course).

Also, we have a very racist politician here who basically says that the Islam is a retarded religion (on camera) and they sued him but they couldn't do anything because:
1. He is a politician and freedom of speech counts double for them on these subjects apparently.
2. It was not directed specifically at somebody.

[obdigore]

Freedom of speech isnt really restricted in Europe. 16 countries have laws against denial of the holocaust but that is about it.
Im not entirely sure what a so called minister burning the koran would have to do with free speach. If true free speach allows people to instigate hate and devide people and cause violence. Well then I am for limiting it as much as it is illegal to stand up in a full theatre and yell "FIRE, FIRE, RUN!"

Another example is why wikileaks wanted to host their servers in Europe, Sweden for example.
We have a much larger protection with that sort of freedom than the US can ever offer.

Actually, it is illegal to yell 'FIRE' in a theater if there isn't actually a fire in the US as well. Or 'I HAVE A BOMB' on an airplane. Freedom of Speech in the US does not protect you from things that will/can cause a panic and danger to the public when there is not, and you know there is not, the danger you are specifying.

From Wiki:

Criticism of the government and advocacy of unpopular ideas that people may find distasteful or against public policy, such as racism, sexism, and other hate speech are almost always permitted. There are exceptions to these general protections, including the Miller test for obscenity, child pornography laws, speech that incites imminent lawless action, and regulation of commercial speech such as advertising. Within these limited areas, other limitations on free speech balance rights to free speech and other rights, such as rights for authors and inventors over their works and discoveries (copyright and patent), protection from imminent or potential violence against particular persons (restrictions on fighting words), or the use of untruths to harm others (slander). Distinctions are often made between speech and other acts which may have symbolic significance.

I don't see why the Government needs to make it illegal to discuss history. I'm not saying the Armenian Genocide never happened, I'm saying that even discussing it could be dangerous in France, depending on how the law is written. Especially if you try and compare it to the Holocaust and say something like 'The near total destruction of population segments such as Jewish, Gypsies, and anyone practicing Non-Approved Religions really is what the word Genocide is all about. Meanwhile in the case of Armenia, there are so few facts and so many stories and and dissenting opinions that Genocide may not be the right word.'

Did I just violate Frances new law?

[Mengucekli]

It is so insightful to see how many people still can take the events as a granted 'genocide' while i gave a few of many but very solid historical proofs in a post 2 pages behind. I want to congratulate you on your ignorant and accusing agitation and self righteous genocide promotion, you have managed to prove how hypocrite some people may become. Way to go!