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  1. #21
    Am I the only person who thinks it's fundamentally wrong to criminalize having a view point? I just don't get it.

    Sure, denying it is dumb. But criminalizing it..? Really?

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    While I don't think Genocide should be ignored, I think criminalizing denial of a historical event impinges on Freedom of Speech. I don't know if France has a similar constitutional protection to the US First Amendment, but I value freedom of speech, even when I believe the thing being expressed is vile.
    We dont have exactly the same freedom of speech as yours, as we cant deny shoa (and 95% of the population is perfectly fine with it). I dont know if there are other "memorial laws" as we call them, but they are generally speaking viewed as a bad thing. We think that history is the domain of historians, and that it should not be the work of the Assemblée Nationale to decide what is true or not.
    For example, if you remember Dominique de Villepin (he was at the security council when USA decided to invade Irak ) he is in the same political wing than Sarkozy, and is totally against this kind of laws.

    Our "great" president has been doing some strange things lately, launching proposals all around even if it is counter productive (from the point of view of all sides except his). It is largely suspected to be a law that will aquire votes for the upcoming elections (22 of april) from the armenian community. And he will need them.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by kuku2 View Post
    You're spewing a whole lot of what sounds like propaganda. If I had to take a guess, I'd say that you heard all of that somewhere and never bothered to confirm any of it.
    Not really propaganda. The genocide is murky area. Lots of Historical facts are missing and are tall tales. For every atrocities, hundreds never happened. that kinda thing

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by BurningStick View Post
    While denying a genocide it outright stupid, criminalizing it seems wrong in my opinion. Feels like an infringement on the freedom of speech.
    Freedom of speech is not absolute, consider yelling fire in a theater. It is reasonable however to debate what level of restrictions we allow on freedom of speech. Personally, I consider something like this equivalent with hate speech and therefore it is controversial enough to allow debate.

  5. #25
    The Insane Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewOrleansTrolley View Post
    Am I the only person who thinks it's fundamentally wrong to criminalize having a view point? I just don't get it.

    Sure, denying it is dumb. But criminalizing it..? Really?
    It is pretty weird yes. The discussion has been about freedom of speech vs defending insulting millions of people about what is obviously a fact ie. the holocaust.
    Once the holocaust was added as forbidden one cant really justify not adding other genocides to the list.
    Hence the genocide of armeinians got added as well.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Did you read how US is trying to destabilize pacific (china-jap) area too? They are sending warships down there. We might be seeing a new military force being created out of those two nations that will counter NATO (with EASE)

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Diurdi View Post
    But should alternative versions of history be banned? Shouldn't you be allowed to believe that the holocaust never happened? Yes, it's in my opinion an absolutely stupid and uneducated, but it falls under the freedom of speech.
    Even holocust has changed. Rather than it being about killing jewish, mentailly ill, gay or people that don't fit into society or political enemies, in moderns times it about just about jewish with others completely removed or deemphasized.,

  7. #27
    What a load of crap, guess they had no actual laws to work on?

  8. #28
    Stood in the Fire wimbo125's Avatar
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    I agree with France on this one, Genocide is the worst that can happen, it's not to be denied! In Turkey I bet it's the other way around...
    Don't expect others to be happy with you if you aren't happy with yourself.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sealbinder View Post
    Genocide must be recognized and should never be ignored or denied. Those who deny the genocides of the world disgust me.
    How do you decide something is genocide. By the enemies of the victors? No one would consider Iraq war as genocide now, but give it time.

  10. #30
    The Patient Velanis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NewOrleansTrolley View Post
    Am I the only person who thinks it's fundamentally wrong to criminalize having a view point? I just don't get it.

    Sure, denying it is dumb. But criminalizing it..? Really?
    No. I agree 100%.

    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    Even holocust has changed. Rather than it being about killing jewish, mentailly ill, gay or people that don't fit into society or political enemies, in moderns times it about just about jewish with others completely removed or deemphasized.,
    I'm not sure where you're from, but from my personal experience that's completely false.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by phyto View Post
    Although I agree with the spirit; I do think that any step taken by a government to censor what someone says is a step in the wrong direction.
    I agree censorship of opinion is a step in the wrong direction. But in todays world of anyone can make their thoughts known, anonymity, and people who enjoy spreading misinformation (trolling, editting sites like wikipedia purposely with misinformation) i think laws upholding unarguable FACT are very much a step in the right direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by NewOrleansTrolley View Post
    Am I the only person who thinks it's fundamentally wrong to criminalize having a view point? I just don't get it.

    Sure, denying it is dumb. But criminalizing it..? Really?
    As a "view point" your view would be that the events do not constitute or deserve being labeled 'geneocide.' That is a view point.

    Denying the events ever took place is not a view point. That is denying FACT.
    Last edited by openair; 2012-01-25 at 10:27 PM.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by wimbo125 View Post
    I agree with France on this one, Genocide is the worst that can happen, it's not to be denied! In Turkey I bet it's the other way around...
    Does Turkey being a muslim country affect your opinion in any way?

  13. #33
    Mechagnome Akarui's Avatar
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    As a human yes very good.
    As an british citizen, france president just trying to get votes; soiling this good thing.
    As a realist, we should have moved on and kept the peace, rather than rocking the boat.
    “4chan once took on the FBI and won,” a Brony told the New York Observer, “so you might say that My Little Pony is more powerful than the FBI.” Sethisto

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by openair View Post
    I agree censorship of opinion is a step in the wrong direction. But in todays world of anyone can make their thoughts known, anonymity, and people who enjoy spreading misinformation (trolling, editting sites like wikipedia purposely with misinformation) i think laws upholding unarguable FACT are very much a step in the right direction.
    Facts are most assholic thing in exist. It can be easily minipulated. Not to mention, whose fact? Is herosima and nagashaki a genocide? people don't consider that. ..

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by GennGreymane View Post
    A new french law now criminalizes denial of the Armenian genocide. Lets hope more countries follow suit! No genocide should ever be ignore
    You are for people being arrested for having different views of history?

    Scary Big Brother views are scary.

    Why not just enact a law in France where everything in the French history books is 100% factual and anyone questioning otherwise should be thrown in jail?

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    Facts are most assholic thing in exist. It can be easily minipulated. Not to mention, whose fact? Is herosima and nagashaki a genocide? people don't consider that. ..
    Oh god I absolutely HATE when people bring this up. The emperor and the Japanese were the most despicable and vile things next to Hitler. Sure the Russians killed the most, but they didn't freeze people's limbs and bash them to see if they could shatter.
    -You are now breathing manually-

  17. #37
    The Insane Bakis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -Chen Stormstout- View Post
    You are for people being arrested for having different views of history?

    Scary Big Brother views are scary.

    Why not just enact a law in France where everything in the French history books is 100% factual and anyone questioning otherwise should be thrown in jail?
    The holocaust is in itself as much set in stone as saying the earth is a globe and not flat. It is not really up for debate as other things in a history book might very well be.

    I personally dont think it should be criminal but I am happy that they added this genocide to the list along with the holocaust if the french people decide this is what they would like as a law.
    Last edited by Bakis; 2012-01-25 at 10:32 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Did you read how US is trying to destabilize pacific (china-jap) area too? They are sending warships down there. We might be seeing a new military force being created out of those two nations that will counter NATO (with EASE)

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by artemishunter1 View Post
    Facts are most assholic thing in exist. It can be easily minipulated. Not to mention, whose fact? Is herosima and nagashaki a genocide? people don't consider that. ..
    Facts cannot be easily manipulated. Letting someone tell you something that is not fact is only as easy as you let it be. Things that are discovered to not be correct are not and were never actual fact. They may have been viewed as fact, but that again is only as easy as you let it be. No one denies bombs were dropped on Herosima and Nagashaki...

    True fact requires physical evidence. Everything else is just misunderstanding or opinion. Opinion by definition is not fact...

    Also "Genocide is defined as the deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group." Bombs were dropped on Japan to stop WW2, not specifically to kill Japanese civilians only to kill Japanese civilians.
    Last edited by openair; 2012-01-25 at 10:40 PM.

  19. #39
    The Insane Bakis's Avatar
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    Sorry I was out of line
    Edited it.

    The holocaust was a hoax.
    yea I dont mind people saying it, to me they are automatically neo-nazis, mentally ill or never went a day to school if they say that.
    Just another reason for me to move along, unless they would be neo-nazis. Then it is a good reason to pick the fight with them and at least try to get them to understand how fucked up believes they got.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ulmita View Post
    Did you read how US is trying to destabilize pacific (china-jap) area too? They are sending warships down there. We might be seeing a new military force being created out of those two nations that will counter NATO (with EASE)

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Bakis View Post
    The holocaust is in itself as much set in stone as saying the earth is a globe and not flat. It is not really up for debate as other things in a history book might very well be.
    You come from a country who were close to pass the bills on SOPA and PIPA if it wasnt for the commercial and private uproar, as an american you are not really in the position to speak about big brother, Sup Echelon.

    I personally dont think it should be criminal but I am happy that they added this genocide to the list along with the holocaust if the french people decide this is what they would like as a law.
    you're wrong on that one. Armanians tried European Court of Human Rights around 2004(may be wrong) and guess what they failed. I'm not trying to create a discussion about this subject which is very deep and intense but even ECHR can't say there is a genocide so things are not clear as you people claim. Armanians died(as well as Turks) no one denies that however was it a genocide that's hard to answer.

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