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  1. #41
    you should add even more classes to intellect leather and let int shamans and int paladins keep their snowflake gear.

  2. #42
    Raiding stopped being interesting the minute everyone was able to clear the content and the elimination of progression with the substitution of mediocrity became the new standard. Conquering things as they were intended and on equal footing rewards the player with a feeling of pride. Nobody asks the question, "So how far did you progress that toon?" anymore. Now, everyone's a winner in three different levels of the same gear.

    Rather than a marathon, the system has been broken into a series of sprints where everyone running the marathon is asked to take a break while everyone else catches up. Then you fire the starting gun again. It was more fun when you could take a break from the game, come back 6 months later and find a guild still doing the content you were doing when you left. Today you come back and are playing a game of catchup because the previous tiers go largely ignored.

    Ulduar was, and always will be apparently, the pinnacle of WoW raiding. It had perfect separation of player ability. I got to see through all of it on my old main and it took about 5 months. If people couldn't make it to the end boss, then you had something to work on. The nerf to the instance came with gear available from later (and easier) content. That was fine, because I routinely went back to retain achievements and mounts on other characters.

    I'm not the greatest player ever, but being given nerfs and easy instances was sort of like being told "you're terrible at this and we know it, so let's remove the hurdles" when I never asked for it. And this made it boring.

  3. #43
    Now i'm sad that they changed the cowl and shoulder effect from the tier 8 priest artwork

  4. #44
    what about converting caster stats for retribution and tank paladins ? let retribution deal spell damages (and give us a goddameed holy resistance) with intellect

  5. #45
    I still think that Holy Paladins could be changed to use str for their stats. Gear that had hit and expertise would not be good for them, but the rest of the status are fine. It would be no different than with holy priests not wanting cloth that has hit on it.

  6. #46
    Mechagnome Scratches's Avatar
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    Sigh, if only the in-game models had the kind of detail that that concept art depicts. Hell, I'd even take half.
    As an artist myself, seeing all the flat models (e.g., skirts) and armor that's just painted-on just makes me smh and cry a little on the inside...

  7. #47
    Stood in the Fire marrefar's Avatar
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    Possible solution to the plate int issue: Let the mages get it as an option in the spec, would be nice to see some battlemages around!

  8. #48
    The reason so few people killed Yogg in wrath was because Ulduar was only out for 4 months and the next raid was way too easy so everyone skipped it. Ulduar only has 10 bosses if you skip the optional ones, the only thing that made it long was the trash and the fact that it was relatively hard so you might not one shot everything. Also their excuse that making all hardmodes activated lwould start to become gimmicky and boring is bs. They could use their imagination to think of new ways to initiate hardmodes but instead they go for the incredibly boring toggle hardmode in UI, boss health up, does more damage, some fights have 1 or 2 extra abilities.

  9. #49
    I love how people keep voting Ulduar the best raid experience in the game and saying how much they loved it, yet Blizzard has to down play that, because they have no intention of ever producing that level of content again. I'm so tired of Blizzard's rhetoric and hollow explanations, it'd be better now if they just kept their blue posts to themselves on this type of topic. I never killed Yogg or Algalon until after ToC was out, yet my times in Ulduar were the most fun raiding I have ever had. 6 hours a week was plenty of time to get through it. I have not felt the thrill of a kill very often in Cata. The first tier had it's moments, the only fight in Firelands that made me yell was the first time we killed Rag, and DS has had no such moments for me so far.

    As for spell plate, why not look at it from a different perspective. Rather than changing what Holy Pallies wear, I'd think they could have Ret or Unholy DK's wearing spell plate. I actually really think they missed the boat on Unholy as a spell plate class.

  10. #50
    Wow the Priest T8 model looks better in the art then it does in game

  11. #51
    Stood in the Fire The Last DJ's Avatar
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    I love the rose-tinted glasses with which everyone views Ulduar. It was a neat dungeon with an amazing story behind it, visually entertaining (if you're into constellations), and each boss was relatively different in their encounter. Problem was it ran about 5 bosses too long. It got real tedious real fast, and after the first, I dunno, months worth of lockouts, everything became automated. I remember doing Flame Leviathan the first few times as a gunner, acting on point to call out the approach of the spider tanks. Doing Decon for the first time and wiping in a spectacularly hilarious fashion because none of us were expecting his voice/dialogue. "No Munchie, don't press Mimiron's button. No Munchie, bad Munchie! Don't press the button. SIT! DOWN BEAR! DOWN! BAD BEAR! BAD MUNCHIE!" That stark, almost sad realization that you had to every week fight your way past the veritable loot pinatas that was Siege to get to the slightly more entertaining Keepers encounters. I honestly liked ToC when it first came out. "Wait ... you mean we sit here and the bosses come to us? No dipstick getting lost or aggroing a trash pack trying to skip it? No 'up the stairs around the corner through three teleporters and five hallways across the treehouse roof and down the rainspout around the loopy-doo remember to stay to the left and Parn do you THINK maybe you could pop on some Cheetah Feet so we'd get there faster than a settler got to Oregon in a fuckin' covered wagon?' ... no Munchie deliberately killing people with Mimiron Frogger 2.0? We just ... stay here? That's what I call Mag-fuckin'-neato."

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Idletime View Post
    Ulduar was, and always will be apparently, the pinnacle of WoW raiding. It had perfect separation of player ability. I got to see through all of it on my old main and it took about 5 months. If people couldn't make it to the end boss, then you had something to work on. The nerf to the instance came with gear available from later (and easier) content. That was fine, because I routinely went back to retain achievements and mounts on other characters.
    The "pinnacle" of wow raiding was most of BC, rarely have seen someone say the opposite who has done vanilla through Lich King. I'm guessing you didn't raid in BC, if you even played.
    Other than that, I agree with your statements.

    edit:

    Maybe I'm all "rose tinted sunglasses" about the "old days" but BC to me was a combination of wow accessibility with old school mmo progression, as well as a broadening of the game instead of a narrowing.

    Take note that I'm factoring "competitive" pvp into my opinions as I wasn't a pvper. If anything it was "the beginning of the end" by not splitting mechanics of pvp and pve. That would have saved a massive amount of heartache from players a long time ago, and would have promoted growth of both without all the issues that one would cause the other. There has not been a single patch since arenas came into existence that didn't have at least one pvp-related nerf/buff/change that also directly effected pve players for no good reason.

    And with every expansion mechanics have gotten worse because of it, and moreso dumbed down as a the laziest way of "fixing" the issue. The devs really have no clue how to balance the game, and have ALWAYS taken the easy route. See: shapeshifting root breaks, bloodlust, rogue stealth just to name a few. When I left the game (late WotLK) the game was dive bombing into a 4 class system; that is Tank, healer, melee dps, ranged dps. Today it is essentially that and with MoP it will be exactly that. Instead of a class having many unique mechanics, they have at best two and the rest are shared between several other classes.

    Everything that has made this game more accessible has made it less fun. Believe it or not, it is possible to make a game initially accessible to "casual" players while also being fun/deep for "hardcore" players. The problem is that it takes some amount of effort, which Blizz refused to do.

    It baffles me as to how even the most hardened fanboy could not have seen the reality of the game by now. (which is shit)
    Last edited by lilbuddhaman; 2012-01-27 at 10:14 PM.

  13. #53
    Stood in the Fire The Last DJ's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lilbuddhaman View Post
    The "pinnacle" of wow raiding was most of BC, rarely have seen someone say the opposite who has done vanilla through Lich King. I'm guessing you didn't raid in BC, if you even played. A combination of wow accessibility with old school mmo progression.

    Other than that, I agree with your statements.
    BC raiding was great mechanics-wise. I loved Kara to death. We'd continue to run Kara every week long into t6 - it was 22 friggin' badges for an hour-and-a-half of work that was largely still entertaining (easy as fuck, but entertaining) well into t6. Problem with BC raiding for me at least, was that I had absolutely no vested interest in Kael'thas or Illidan as villains. I outright can't stand either of them, and I wasn't entirely sold on them being shoehorned into big bad expac villains. Tempest Keep was a visual nightmare that left me with a splitting headache every raid night without fail, SSC was pretty ... meh. (Even if I found Lady Vashj to be a much more entertaining villain, story-wise.) The thing about TBC raiding was that it was (for me at least) a middle bit of uninspiring painful meh bracketed by amazing content. I mean Sunwell was fucking stunning.

  14. #54
    The unnerfed Kael'Thas and the first couple of kills on Vashj, Illidian, and Archimonde were incredible experiences. I imagine if I would have steamrolled an "easy" version of each one before doing the "normal" or "hard" version I would have been incredibly dissapointed, like how I felt with EVERY boss in Lich King. Speaking of Lich King; Icecrown was a sloppily done instance. Black Temple with skulls thrown on everything.

  15. #55
    Pit Lord Worgoblin's Avatar
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    I'd really like the ability to toggle weapon enchant graphics on/off. I'm surprised this hasn't already been added.

  16. #56
    Stood in the Fire The Last DJ's Avatar
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    I'm not as emotionally hung up on "easymode" LFR as what seems to be the vocal majority of the player base. It's something else to do, really, and that's all it boils down to. Raiding in WoW has always been the big thing. That's what you do. You play WoW to do endgame content, whether it was raiding or grinding ladder rankings. Players of other games talk a lot of shit on WoW based on this fact. And some people are scared of it. They're fucking terrified of the idea of raiding, thinking of all those friggin' stories of bitter ex-players or hearsay, and expecting damn near every raid group to consist of 25 Onyxia Guys. You don't get the full endgame experience of WoW dinking in 5 man heroics that were logically designed to be the first step of progression. Now a new player who's not sure of whether or not he's ready to raid can do those heroics, and then dabble his toes in the kiddie pool that is LFR. Does he like the experience? Does he feel comfortable dealing with 14 to 24 other people? Is he comfortable with his class mechanics and even how his computer runs the raid scenario? If that's the case (and he's welcome to run it a few times just to really make sure after the shiny newness has worn off), then he can app to a raiding guild, or go on server-organized PuGs. It's not the people LFR is aimed at that have turned it into scuzzy den of terribads and horror stories - it's the people with grandiose entitlement complexes coming in to stomp on the good fun of all the "baddies" and "casuals". Blizzard was well-intentioned with the design of LFR, just like they were with LFG. Problem is they're a little too naive when it comes to just how big a douchebag some of their players can be when it comes to what "I deserve for my 15 bucks".

    Hell, I WISH we had an LFR for BC/Wrath content. It would have weeded out a lot of people in my guild who were so very not mentally capable raiders, and saved us so very many wipes after a new healer or tank or special-role DPS fucking hyperventilated themselves into unconsciousness from the stress of first-time raiding. ("WHAT DO YOU MEAN I TANK THAT OGRE? I'M A MAGE IN CLOTH! I DON'T TANK! I'VE HAD IT BEATEN INTO MY HEAD FOR 70 LEVELS THAT IT'S BAD WHEN I TAKE DAMAGE, WHAT ARE YOU DOING TO ME?!") Asking players about any serious phobias has also now become rule fucking 1 on the recruitment list. Nothing like having your eardrums shattered by the terrified wail of a new healer brought in on a trial run on Maexxna only to learn that he's absolutely pants-pissingly terrified of spiders.
    Last edited by The Last DJ; 2012-01-27 at 10:56 PM. Reason: Edited for formatting. :B

  17. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by lilbuddhaman View Post
    The "pinnacle" of wow raiding was most of BC, rarely have seen someone say the opposite who has done vanilla through Lich King. I'm guessing you didn't raid in BC, if you even played.
    LOL.

    Burning "Woo, Mana Burn Aura! Wait, What's A 'Hybrid Melee?'" Crusade?

    Burning "We're Going to Let Other Classes Besides Warriors Tank... LOL J/K!" Crusade?

    Burning "Sorry, You Can't Even Heal This Raid Because You Have No AoE" Crusade?

    Bitch, please.

    Yeah... I'm gonna guess you played a Destruction Warlock or something.
    OMG 13:37 - Then Jesus said to His disciples, "Cleave unto me, and I shall grant to thee the blessing of eternal salvation."

    And His disciples said unto Him, "Can we get Kings instead?"

  18. #58
    Brewmaster Salech's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    LOL.

    Burning "Woo, Mana Burn Aura! Wait, What's A 'Hybrid Melee?'" Crusade?

    Burning "We're Going to Let Other Classes Besides Warriors Tank... LOL J/K!" Crusade?

    Burning "Sorry, You Can't Even Heal This Raid Because You Have No AoE" Crusade?

    Bitch, please.

    Yeah... I'm gonna guess you played a Destruction Warlock or something.
    I agree with him, and i played an elemental Shaman.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Lumineus View Post
    LOL.

    Burning "Woo, Mana Burn Aura! Wait, What's A 'Hybrid Melee?'" Crusade?


    Burning "We're Going to Let Other Classes Besides Warriors Tank... LOL J/K!" Crusade?

    Burning "Sorry, You Can't Even Heal This Raid Because You Have No AoE" Crusade?

    Bitch, please.

    Yeah... I'm gonna guess you played a Destruction Warlock or something.
    And the works of someone who didn't play BC clearly.

    -From day one was a feral druid. Main Tanked every non-gimmick fight in expansion (ie: requires a specific warrior ability or cooldown), and consistently maintained ~90% the dps as a feral cat as non-legendary rogues. Something I felt perfectly acceptable, a small but fair Hybrid tax

    -My top 100 US guild ran with a full assortment of healers pally, druid, priest alike; certain specs were required, but that is simply the name of the raiding game.

    Fankly, you don't know shit. Its not even about absolute nitpicking specific behaviors that were minor to the big picture. It was Risk vs Reward an aspect completely lost to wow.

    Likely you played has some randomly chosen "spec" that was pvp focused and bitched because it wasn't pve viable, IF you even raided in BC at all, which I highly doubt given your generalized statements of the situation in BC.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by lilbuddhaman View Post
    And the words of someone who didn't play BC clearly.
    Actually, he's spot on.

    -From day one was a feral druid. Main Tanked every non-gimmick fight in expansion (ie: requires a specific warrior ability or cooldown), and consistently maintained ~90% the dps as a feral cat as non-legendary rogues. Something I felt perfectly acceptable, a small but fair Hybrid tax
    Guess you forgot that from day 1 feral druid damage started OP and their ride on the buff-nerf rollercoaster was not as harsh as what other classes saw in TBC. ("Warriors and the abortion known as Rage Normalization: Part I" and "Ret Paladins losing Crusader Strike only to gain it back near the end of the damn expansion" say hi.)

    Its not even about absolute nitpicking specific behaviors that were minor to the big picture.
    Minor? Denying people raid spots over some of the problems in TBC is minor? Sitting mages during sunwell was minor? Ret paladins and fury warriors being worthless in dungeons that were designed around CC when they had none to bring to a group is minor? Paladins still being tank healers at the time is minor?

    It was Risk vs Reward an aspect completely lost to wow.
    The risk is still the same. Dying, repairs and wasted flasks are still part of the equation.

    It may sound surprising, but not everyone who was around back in TBC looks back at that expansion with fondness. I'll be the first to tell you they went overboard with Cataclysm, which is a shame because they had it just right in WotLK. So yes, to me Ulduar is the pinnacle of raid design between normal/hard modes, variety in bosses and overall leangth of the instance.

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