Fix for Vial of Shadows et all

[Sackman]

Provide what evidence? Do you not have eyes? I'm pretty sure you can process information judging by your posts, so if you play this game, have eyes and can process information at the same time, then you know, deep down, that rogues are overrepresented because of vial, yes, but also because they are by far the best melee class.



As said, dance is on way too short of a CD, their healing (received and self) is over the top, which also means their synergy with shamans (and locks) is far too tight, their overall damage (combined with survivability) is too high, etc. They are, by far, the best melee class in the game and basically the only one a healer/caster/melee setup will take - if a shaman and a lock take a warrior and play WLS rather than a rogue to play RLS they are gimping themselves, if a priest and a mage take a feral rather than a rogue they're gimping themselves... I could go on, but you get what I mean. Even if the rogues do not have vial, they're still a MUCH better choice than any other melee class or spec. Invariably. And that's wrong.

By far the best melee class? No. The best melee class? Possibly, but it would be by an acceptable margin.

They are over represented now because of vial, else they are pretty balanced - as in, any amount of imbalance means you are expecting perfect balance. Dance CD too short? I don't think it would hurt them too much for it to be increased, certainly. Their healing? Certainly is high, but so is the damage they take so it balances out. Regarding your statement about setup?

The comment regarding the warrior just isn't true, there are 2600 rated WLS out there, but the rogue plays the setup better because it's easier. If you went FLS instead of RLS you would be better as the feral pressure is better than the rogues and FLS>RLS if you encounter it (ignoring Vial which is currently better for rogues and is skewing the representation). If you replaced a rogue instead of a warrior in kittycleave it wouldn't work aswell and the same is true of the feral. If you took a rogue/hunter/priest it wouldn't be as effective as feral/hunter/priest. However ret/rogue/hunter is more effective than ret/feral/hunter, dk/warrior/hunter is more effective than dk/rogue/hunter. We could talk about comps all day and regardless, each melee has a comp that can take them high, to expect all melee to have a glad worthy rating comp is a task in itself, the fact that it is possible means balance is at an all time high. In fact I think only DK's are underepresented at high rating in 3's at the moment, as in unless you are playing DK/Ret/Rogue you probably are not going for glad, DK/Warrior/Hunter is still a viable setup though for DK's to play but I can't imagine seeing any glads from that comp this season.

Are rogues over represented right now? Yes. Do they have a low skillcap? No. Do I believe vial changes will alter the representation of the class this season? No, it is definitely now FotM. But is it because the class is overpowered (as you seem to suggest?) no. Best melee class? certainly possible, but so far and above the others that no other class stands a chance? Definitely not.

This season is going to be RMP vs xLS vs Jungle, calling it now, with the vial changes it's going to be close, but I think RLS/FLS can beat RMP once the vial changes are made - with FLS and Jungle being the top 2 players.

[Deleted]

This season is going to be RMP vs xLS vs Jungle, calling it now, with the vial changes it's going to be close, but I think RLS/FLS can beat RMP once the vial changes are made - with FLS and Jungle being the top 2 players.

I won't really bother responding to the other points you made because if you think WLS even compares to RLS then you do not play arena - there is one WLS at 2600, and that's Shawir/Skenz/Flubbah playing on a bad BG, every other warrior above 2400 either plays on a Russian BG (they always run weird ass comps) or in a team with a lock and a shaman (AND a rogue, who, coincidentally, has more games played than the warrior does).

Compared to rogues, no other melee can compete regardless of comp - fact. I know there are loads of comps that warriors/ferals/DKs can play and that work, but they're all sub-par (not to say terrible) when compared to RMP, RLS, LSDv2 and every other tier 1 comp. The only great comp every non-rogue melee has is jungle, and that's not even a melee/caster/healer comp, it's a "melee" cleave. I mean really, just go on AJ and check for the sheer amount of rogues in the top 50, then look at the amount of warriors and DKs (and even ferals, most druids are moonkin). They do not have a low skill cap at all, they have one of the highest out there, as do mages, but there's really no way around it and it doesn't seem like you'll ever acknowledge rogues are overtuned regardless of vial, but ah well.

By xLS is you mean RLS, why do you think there are virtually no MLSes out there anymore? Because mages suck? No, because both casters have better things to run (RLS and RMP respectively).

[Shamygandof]

By far the best melee class? No. The best melee class? Possibly, but it would be by an acceptable margin.

They are over represented now because of vial, else they are pretty balanced - as in, any amount of imbalance means you are expecting perfect balance. Dance CD too short? I don't think it would hurt them too much for it to be increased, certainly. Their healing? Certainly is high, but so is the damage they take so it balances out. Regarding your statement about setup?

If your damage is high, survivabilty is high, and self heals are high, does that make you OP?

The comment regarding the warrior just isn't true, there are 2600 rated WLS out there, but the rogue plays the setup better because it's easier. If you went FLS instead of RLS you would be better as the feral pressure is better than the rogues and FLS>RLS if you encounter it (ignoring Vial which is currently better for rogues and is skewing the representation). If you replaced a rogue instead of a warrior in kittycleave it wouldn't work aswell and the same is true of the feral. If you took a rogue/hunter/priest it wouldn't be as effective as feral/hunter/priest. However ret/rogue/hunter is more effective than ret/feral/hunter, dk/warrior/hunter is more effective than dk/rogue/hunter. We could talk about comps all day and regardless, each melee has a comp that can take them high, to expect all melee to have a glad worthy rating comp is a task in itself, the fact that it is possible means balance is at an all time high. In fact I think only DK's are underepresented at high rating in 3's at the moment, as in unless you are playing DK/Ret/Rogue you probably are not going for glad, DK/Warrior/Hunter is still a viable setup though for DK's to play but I can't imagine seeing any glads from that comp this season.

When you insert a class in any comp and it instantly be an upgrade is that not a sign of being op?

Are rogues over represented right now? Yes. Do they have a low skillcap? No. Do I believe vial changes will alter the representation of the class this season? No, it is definitely now FotM. But is it because the class is overpowered (as you seem to suggest?) no. Best melee class? certainly possible, but so far and above the others that no other class stands a chance? Definitely not.

If rogues are not the best melee class, who in your opinion is?

This season is going to be RMP vs xLS vs Jungle, calling it now, with the vial changes it's going to be close, but I think RLS/FLS can beat RMP once the vial changes are made - with FLS and Jungle being the top 2 players.

You sir are trying to play us like blizzard's condescending blue post which seems to refer to a rogue with vial of skill as a "coordinated" attack so just L2P.

[Deleted]

anybody who has played pvp at any reasonable level competitively can see rogues are immensely overtuned right now.

outside of a few clutch skills like a well placed WoG heal, or instant cyclone, they are the best melee by a very long way.

best CC
best self-healing (outside of frenzied regeneration)
best escape mechanisms
best damage reduction abilities
best damage
probably 2nd best uptime on target second only to feral druids because of snare shifting, but when combined with a dispeller this difference is almost nonexistent as 70% slow > 50% slow
best reset mechanics
best peels
best openers
maybe best class synergy

anything I missed?

edit: best resource mechanism on par with druids of course.
edit 2: mortal strike
edit 3: best "going defensive and losing least offensive ability"

[Sackman]

I won't really bother responding to the other points you made because if you think WLS even compares to RLS then you do not play arena - there is one WLS at 2600, and that's Shawir/Skenz/Flubbah playing on a bad BG, every other warrior above 2400 either plays on a Russian BG (they always run weird ass comps) or in a team with a lock and a shaman (AND a rogue, who, coincidentally, has more games played than the warrior does).

Compared to rogues, no other melee can compete regardless of comp - fact. I know there are loads of comps that warriors/ferals/DKs can play and that work, but they're all sub-par (not to say terrible) when compared to RMP, RLS, LSDv2 and every other tier 1 comp. The only great comp every non-rogue melee has is jungle, and that's not even a melee/caster/healer comp, it's a "melee" cleave. I mean really, just go on AJ and check for the sheer amount of rogues in the top 50, then look at the amount of warriors and DKs (and even ferals, most druids are moonkin). They do not have a low skill cap at all, they have one of the highest out there, as do mages, but there's really no way around it and it doesn't seem like you'll ever acknowledge rogues are overtuned regardless of vial, but ah well.

By xLS is you mean RLS, why do you think there are virtually no MLSes out there anymore? Because mages suck? No, because both casters have better things to run (RLS and RMP respectively).

Nah by xLS I mean RLS/FLS/WLS/MLS. They are all common mage is still pretty strong, and the fact that there is a warrior there - proves its possible, the reason there are not many of them, is not that they are incapable - clearly they are proof of this. The problem is not many people are willing to try - perhaps because its more difficult, or perhaps because they just look at whos at the top and go "hey i will copy".

WLS vs RLS, synergy wise the rogue wins, however the strength of the comp is in the synergy of the warlock and shammy, it just so happens that after that rogues are a jack of all CC/burst/slows that are great for annoying the other team, that isn't to say that Ferals cannot be as good as them, or provide a great challenge you just need to play to your strengths, and clearly the team with the warrior plays to their strengths. People just prefer to not step out of their boundaries - they are too busy aiming for easy glads.

And yes jungle is good, its amazingly good and you can't downplay it just because it doesn't have a healer (I prefer those games too, less of a boring "cooldown" waiting game).

And yes rogues are over represented, a great PVP class, but other classes CAN DO IT TOO. Ferals do it, Warriors clearly can do it. But over representation does not mean OP. Like hunters, underrepresented in BG's, but when has a hunter not been in the 3v3 tournaments at Blizzcon and all?

I agree mages have a very low skill cap lol but I'm biased.

[Deleted]

Nah by xLS I mean RLS/FLS/WLS/MLS. They are all common mage is still pretty strong, and the fact that there is a warrior there - proves its possible, the reason there are not many of them, is not that they are incapable - clearly they are proof of this.

There are 5 warriors in the top 100 in the world. Check arena junkies rankings. This may come off as rude but I didn't even read the rest of your post and I won't bother replying any further if you're not willing to admit rogues are better than warriors in every possible way you can even look at it, the fact there are 68 rogues and 5 warriors obviously matters but even if you want to pretend the fact they're overrepresented has nothing to do with rogues as a class, seeing as they are seemingly perfectly balanced, you still say warriors are clearly capable of performing in high-rated arena as well as rogues are? Really? Come on man, do you think every warrior just gave up on WoW arena 3v3 this season because it's too hard? Or do you think they just got ditched by basically every single friend they have because rogues can replace them in every single comp (even TSG) and provide better results?

I honestly don't get how you can think that way but you know, whatever floats your boat I guess.

[Deleted]

using pve gear in pvp is in fact possible, but usually less optimal.
you can also use pvp gear in pve, which, thanks to VERY powerful mainstats in cata, is easily doable, but is of course less optimal.

i dont see the problem.
pve=slightly more damage done
pvp=slightly less damage taken

putting a resilience loss on pve item(s) is no real option. you already lose resilience by not using a pvp trinket (a deal most people will freely accept though)

on a sidenote: rogues are that well represented because they offer amazing control over the fight combining awesome utility and unrivaled crowd control (->their damage isn't the main reason for this).
also, they have a high skill cap, making them very intresting for all high skilled players.

[Serurian]

Nah by xLS I mean RLS/FLS/WLS/MLS. They are all common mage is still pretty strong, and the fact that there is a warrior there - proves its possible, the reason there are not many of them, is not that they are incapable - clearly they are proof of this. The problem is not many people are willing to try - perhaps because its more difficult, or perhaps because they just look at whos at the top and go "hey i will copy".

WLS vs RLS, synergy wise the rogue wins, however the strength of the comp is in the synergy of the warlock and shammy, it just so happens that after that rogues are a jack of all CC/burst/slows that are great for annoying the other team, that isn't to say that Ferals cannot be as good as them, or provide a great challenge you just need to play to your strengths, and clearly the team with the warrior plays to their strengths. People just prefer to not step out of their boundaries - they are too busy aiming for easy glads.

And yes jungle is good, its amazingly good and you can't downplay it just because it doesn't have a healer (I prefer those games too, less of a boring "cooldown" waiting game).

And yes rogues are over represented, a great PVP class, but other classes CAN DO IT TOO. Ferals do it, Warriors clearly can do it. But over representation does not mean OP. Like hunters, underrepresented in BG's, but when has a hunter not been in the 3v3 tournaments at Blizzcon and all?

I agree mages have a very low skill cap lol but I'm biased.

Simply wow, I mean I didn't think it was possible for someone to think that Warriors are just not around in 3's cause they are all having a sick day or they just think it would be too hard or something. Rogues are massively OP this season, to claim otherwise is just simply wrong.

[Dorfie]

If you can't see Rogues are broken this season I feel sorry for you. Even mentioning warriors in the same sentence as rogues is an insult.

[Deleted]

why the hell do you want to completely balance PVP anyways, there is a counter for everything, just keep it at that, make PVP focus around 5v5 Arenas, and not even 3v3, so that you can just stop ''BALANCING'' classes, i mean, balancing in short means HOMOGENIZING, if everything was balanced, there would only be 5v5 arena's, 2 healers in each team, and 3 dps, both the healers would have 2 spells, 1 instant cast HOT that heals for 1 HP per 3 seconds, and 1 1.5cast heal that healed for 3 HP, all dps would have a base attackspeed of 1 dmg per second, and they would have an ability that they can use 3 times per a 11 second period that dealt 1 DMG along with 1 2 second stun that had 5 yard range.

[Sackman]

There are 5 warriors in the top 100 in the world. Check arena junkies rankings. This may come off as rude but I didn't even read the rest of your post and I won't bother replying any further if you're not willing to admit rogues are better than warriors in every possible way you can even look at it, the fact there are 68 rogues and 5 warriors obviously matters but even if you want to pretend the fact they're overrepresented has nothing to do with rogues as a class, seeing as they are seemingly perfectly balanced, you still say warriors are clearly capable of performing in high-rated arena as well as rogues are? Really? Come on man, do you think every warrior just gave up on WoW arena 3v3 this season because it's too hard? Or do you think they just got ditched by basically every single friend they have because rogues can replace them in every single comp (even TSG) and provide better results?

I honestly don't get how you can think that way but you know, whatever floats your boat I guess.

Theres a team at 2600. Care to explain that?

http://www.arenajunkies.com/rankings...1&class_id3=-1

Ferals pages are similar, as are DK's and Ret's.

Rogues benefit the most from VoS. Would that be the only reason? Unlikely, but I would warrant it worht a good 50-100 rating from the amount of games won on the luck of a proc.

Is it wrong that rogues have a chance at 50-100 extra rating (post nerf VoS)? How close does the expected potential of a class have to be for you to call it balanced enough to stop hounding a class for being a bit better or a bit worse :\